Wilson Benesch Torus.
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thx for all
my room was slightly damped, and NOW...having a room at live side, have a diffuser at the first side reflection point, and rear wall is 1eft apart, and have some rugs.., behind my listening position (about 8 ft ) there is a mixture of junk up to the ceiling ..from the wall to abut 3ft
first..of all i do not want to spend that much for a pair of Watch DOG, and having an impression it is a bit to small for my room even i get a pair. my room roughly measured at about 6000cubic ft...
I notice some goner use DD15/18, JL113..and some REL..etc..for music..
Wilson Benesch Torus ....never thought about it , i shall take a look
my room are fully concreted construction, and in fact the Volume may be about or above 7000 ft3
i want a pair..since..i suspect the crossover point will be at around 50 to 60hz.., from that range, there may be some stereo image, and from many findings, it make some sense for having a pair but not just one ..from the volume prospective, a pair is already made some sense
david wilson use 2 hummers for his pair of X-2 too..
Wilson Maxx2 in your size room should have good Bass. I think there must be something wrong. What amplifier(s) are you using to drive your speakers? Also a description of you sources components? What is your cabling? I had a similar problem with a clients system. When I arrived he was just a customer after I solved the no bass problems along with other issues he became a client. The problem was similar the speakers are Avalon Eidolon Diamonds. He did not need a sub-woofer. Bought a couple of good power cords and I fixed the polarity at the outlet. The polarity at the wall was not right. Buy plug tester from Lowes or Home Depot and find out if you need to switch the wires inside the wall outlet. Next we replaced all the interconnects and speaker wires. The bass on this system is correct and it sounds great. You may already have good cabling but it might not be a good match for your system.
My bass improved after treating for bass and I have a watchdog I don't use any more. Maxx 2s in a similar position to yours in almost the exact same size room. Went through the same thing as you. Moving out into the room gives the best mids & highs but the bass impact goes down. Yes you can use a subwoofer from 35Hz down but 1st treat the room with bass traps. I understand you treated it for 1 or 2nd order reflection but bass traps in the corners actually increase bass resolution and will probably demand a slight change in speaker placement. Trying to save you money. If you are a DIYer you can make your own bass traps for near nothing.
I sort of agree with Rockitman. I use Maxx 2 now, Wp before these, and could not imagine having them that far into the room. Did you adjust the head unit, spikes and toe in when you moved them back? I also think something is not right somewhere. They should be full range and do everything very very well ( closer to the wall and corners ). I also think if you are going to cross them over that high, it is not worth it having Maxx's.
You're speakers are basically 60% subwoofer already! After that, it's cables, gear and the room.
Blending a sub with Wilson's is not as easy as it sounds. They have a unique flavor and I could always hear the sub with the exception of very very few. You almost have to go Watch Dog to get seamless sound. The bigger Thiel may work.
I hate to disagree but you are totally wrong.
I worked for Sound by Singer, in their glory Wilson years and I was in fact the top Wilson salesman in the country for most of that time, Mark Goldman would bear that out.
As an experiment I connected a REL Stentor to the Grande Slamms Singer had the Whamms but they were came and went, and low and behold much more bass and it totally integrated.
Singers big room was roughly 30 by 20 by 10 and even the mighty Grande Slamms which morphied into the Alexandrias, has difficulty delivering impressive low end into a room with that kind of volume.
As per the speaker is mostly sub woofer again not true, an active bass system will always produce superior bass performance as it is a closed system and many sub woofers employ thousands of watts of direct power to overcome the limitations of loss of sensitivity which occurs as cabinet volume shrinks, closed system means you can actively eq the woofer and produce a ton of output.
Also it is totally conceivable that this gentleman has the speakers setup perfectly and at 11 feet probably gets the best sense of depth with the most uncolored mid range.
There are a number of good subs which will match well, it also depends on how well they are setup.
Obviously the Wilson subs would be great however there are many others:
REL Stentor or Studio
JL Labs F113 two would be much more affordable tnan a Gotham
I would pass on Torus, very fast but not a lot of output
Escalante Unita hard to find but superb woofer lots of super tight output and very fast. Thiery Budge designed this woofer and he was the orginal designer of the WP by
I haven't played with the new Paradigm subs but they are supposed to be excellent.
Stay away from Velodyne not up to the task, slow and does not have the mega output of the JL.s
Newer REl's not as good as the older series.
I know Audio Feil is going to come calling but what do I know I was the top Wilson guy for many years and my customers included Qunintessential Sound and Tommy Boy Records, and I personally setup over 40 pairs of WP and a few Max, and Grande Slams in my day as well as personally owning both WP 3 and WP 5!
I have absolutely no financial interest what so ever. Mgmmgm lives in Hong Kong and that is a little outside my territory. I know you are an international dealer but I am not.
My opinions are no more biased then anyone else on Audiogon. The Torus is an excellent Infrasonic Generator and I have no hesitation to recommend even to individuals who will never be my customers. To suggest that I am not being honest is slanderous and I would appreciate it if you would refrain.
Readers should be aware that you are a dealer and to promote yourself by trashing other dealers is totally unethical.
Just stating the facts here. No IMO's
yes ..i am at HK, and i also buy around the world..
i am using a pair of cello performance IIpower amp, and CD is a meridian 808.2
checked all polarity at the outlet.at this moment, i was reversed for the pre amp, and fixed , and heard the instandly improvement. i am using a Matisse Reference Tube Pre amp
may be tomorrow i should plug in a Pass LAB X20 for a test, and shall run a full XLR connection tomorrow
But..if the speaker is at 11 ft away from the rear wall, does this address some lost of bass respond from the room ?
interconnetions are not fancy at all, it is some Silver QED, some Lizted Cable from Viola ( those suppose to be pretty similar to Cello String)
the Maxx2 deliver punch..but low energy was low, it was indeed excellent when it was in my last room at 40% of the sizes
I cannot see the need for a Grand Slamm..if i can get better bass by a pair of subwoofer, as the mid and the high and the image..sound stage..and depth are all GOOD..but not the lower end
I had Avalon Eidolon in that room a few months ago, bass was less than the maxx2
floor is fully carpet, however it is not those thick and plush ..just those office grade carpet - that suppose to took away from lower mid
now the sides wall are almost untreated
happy to hear some suggestion for any cable which give better bass
forget to mention my speaker cable, i have a pair of Cardas Golden reference - which sound a bit too rich for my taste, and a pair of very old audioquest Clear III, and now i am using a double run of Gotham professional Speaker wire..which apart from image sizes..not not quite refined..everythig seem natural, i suppse the Maxx 2 should deserved a better pair of SC...
for the Power Cord to the performance II, it is some double shield 99.9999 % copper..etc..forget the spec ,
a lot to share..and as need more advice
i started from 2 ft from the rear wall, however the funny things are..the mid and high Charity really so much better at the range of 10.5ft to 11ft at my room, really so much more enrichment than 4 ft..6ft..5 ft..8 ft.., but just at that range
now the speaker is about 2.4 meter aparted,
i am looking into some DIY infromation for a bass trap, i did made some but not properly measured etc..
wonder...JL Labs F113 , which are 13 inches driver..would that be a bit too small ? ANy comment for the JL 212?
I am seeking a pair of watch dog I ( which is active, and cheaper)
>>> Stay away from Velodyne not up to the task, slow and does not have the mega output of the JL.s <<< ... thx for sharing
REL sub ..seem capable..
well understood, trying to blend othr brand subwoofer with th maxx2 is a hard task
although i do not to pay too much for for a pair of Grand Slamm SIII if i sell my Maxx2, however i suspect, thing will be more or less the same, and i demand a pair of subwoofer
I appreciate your vast experience but do not believe 11ft into a room is likely appropriate placement. I also do not believe it makes solid sense to crossover Maxx 2 at 60Hz. And....I also believe it difficult to integrate most subs with Wilson speakers and from my experience, which included the JL, Thiel seamed closest. And...I also believe it very important to adjust the head unit, toe in and spikes if you move Maxx's.
"Totally wrong..." is likely a little strong.
To the OP...Re cables, MIT has always worked for me. Pricey but I have not found a better match in my system.
can u elaborate a little bit more about "Thiel seamed closest"
the selection of that pair of Subwoofers are indeed risky,as it is fairly hard to resell without losing too much (aparted from buying the Watch DOG) , it can be costly mistake for me, this is why..i am opened to hear more sharing here
yes crossing at 60hz seem a little bit high,however it will be tested to find out
really not that easy
richard, what is you core system now? mind to share a bit?
i had soem pass labs XA100,600, Krell 450MCX 750MCX..Mark no 32 ..etc some FM..etc.however i sold them all recently and keeping the Cello performance II (as it match reasonably well without too far wrong with most of the speakers around)
i had a lot of speakers, and however i like to settle down with the Maxx2 for at least 2 more yrs, until i can afford something at the USD40 to 50K range
Mgm....I had the Thiel SW1 which I believe is now called the SS2 and has a different amplifier. At the time, I was using a Theta processor and I the lowest I could cross over at was 40Hz. I never had a pair so my experience has only been with single subs. I did have the JL F113 here side by side with the Thiel and was only able to get the Thiel to blend without being able to hear the sub. Maybe this had to do with interaction with my room, dunno. The JL is an excellent sub but in my room the Thiel was faster, tighter and seemed to blend better than anything else. I do not use a sub at present for 2 channel listening.
Mgm....I have a Krell FPB 600c, Berkeley Alpha DAC which I use directly to my amp, Maxx 2's, cables are MIT Oracle Matrix 50 ic and Matrix 90 speaker, Oracle MA-X digital, Acoustic Revive power products. Having typed all that, I am in the process of changing and it will look very different in a few weeks. I am moving to Sasha's and Spectral DMA 360's (if my amp would ever sell!). I also am waiting for the Berkeley Alpha USB converter I have on order. Right now, I use a Logitech Transporter to feed my DAC, all files are flac on a HD.
those MIT..is simple cost too much, the DMA 360 seem good match with Wilson, i heard soem of the set up, however it did not sound too refined, i think..it is all about the grade of MIT MY FRIEND is using
how's u comment about your digital front end
funny to see how;s different in the coming future from you.
never hard to let;s go any FPB..unless u are looking for a little bit too much, and are u going to feed the DMA from the DAC?
The MIT are pricey. You don't have to get that level though. Something like th Oracle V2.2, which I used to have, are fantastic and you can get great deals on them now. Those would be perfect for your system.
I love my digital stuff. I have had the Berkeley for a while now and it's perfect for my taste. I do not expect to change dacs for a long long time. It does everything right and the more you throw at it the better it sounds. I also find it to be a surprisingly good volume control. Yes, I plan to run the 360's direct.
I just lowered the price of my Krell. I was not very motivated before but since have found the amps I want to replace it with.
I have almost the exact same room as you. Yes the speakers are much better further out in the room. I wouldn't listen to others as the Maxx rear port is a big part of why coming off the wall helps. A subwoofer will help as well. But 1st please treat the corners. It makes a huge difference. I can send you pictures. of my setup if you want. Tuning the subwoofer is not that easy and most listeners prefer it off. That is with a Watchdog 2. You want to buy mine, I will gladly part with it. I don't use it. That should say enough. I am using VTL 750s which have very nice bass control and the sound is magical.
I never, never, never use a crossover to any main music speakers.
The idea is to bring up the sub to just start to add a pressure wave to the leading and trailing edges of the notes produced by the mains.
11 feet into the room may be the idea placement, if you subscribe to the audio physic setup mantra which is similar you are dramatically taking both walls out of the equation.
In my 25 years of doing this as a profession I have heard numerous setups which were similar.
This included a 2c3d Avalon Spectral system and of course a pair of Apogees played in the middle of a ballroom and boy that was a shocker.
So it all comes down to what works. There is nothing like sheer output that a good subwoofer provides.
I had Wilson Maxx 2's for years and now have Alexandias. The bass in the Maxx 2 is plentiful, but can be difficult to control. Initially I had a REL Studio III with the Maxx's. I ultimately got a pair of JL 113's. I can not recommend them more highly. The Alexandrias have excellent bass, and mine are 4 or so feet from the back and side walls. However, adding the JL's was like being hit over the head with a mallet compared to the REL (which is a $10,000 subwoofer BTW). As you know, the JL's have room correction which works well. The bass is musical as well as powerful. 2 friends have Gothams which I had heard extensively before I decided on the JL's myself. My room (25x17x11) is smaller than theirs thus we all agreed the 113's would suffice. I would be very surprised if 113's wouldn't satisfy you. Also the price/performance ratio is highly favorable. PM me if you wish.
i almost set my mind for the pair of JL 113 for a few resasons
1) it is a lot cheaper than the REL
2) almost everyone said it is better, faster more energy and more musical than the DD
3) fair good price for a used pair
hey...do u run the the ALEX full range with the pair of JL..without the need of a crossover..?
i just worry...it may make the Wilson too warm, i like wilson..since..it is not that warm..haha
I am thinking to buy Maxx2, my room is 15x25x10. The sitting position is about 14-15feet from front wall that has a 110" HT screen. Will my room and my seating position be suitable to have the Maxx2? Will the bass be too much and boomy with my room dimension? I live in SF Bay area, and wonder if anyone live in the area who can let me audition before buying. Hate to buy w/o listening. Any comments are appreciated. Thanks.
i think your room size is good for the maxx, and u can have your Maxx2 7 to 8 ft from the screen, or less if u wish, however your challenge may be the left to right distance for the Maxx, in order to have everyone in your HT..be able to view the 110" screen, which may make the maxx too close to the side walls, or too close to the front , i suggest u to make some measurement and drawing to confirm..
I agree with Mgmmgm. My room is a bit wider than yours, and viewing from the side seats is barely acceptable. Also, my room is heavily treated including multiple bass traps that were NECESSARY to control boomy bass with the Maxx 2. I would definitely consider Sashas or WP-8 (7 too bright unless you are all tube) and a pair of JL's. Wilson's image high anyway so I imagine you will be happy in that regard.
This sounds pretty basic - put a truly full range loudspeaker in a room and you end up with less than linear bass response at a listening position. It's not the speakers fault, it's room accoustics - it happen very often.
You need to correct the frequency response issue - you can move the speakers around - which will help, but most likely never give you linear , true full range bass response. Being 11 feet out in the room will definately reduce your low bass output - if you push the speakers closer to the wall behind them (try around 4 or 5 feet), you will see a definate increase in extreme low end. 11 feet is WAY to far out into the room.
Option two is to correct for the room anomolies via active room correction of some type. The third is to add a subwoofer to give you more control of the low frequency response, and to sort of overcome the room issues with brute force. If you do this, you will need a woofer with prodigous output capablity - The watch dog's do not have enough extreme low end output, in my opinion to do this. Don't forget, they are only 12" woofers - only capable of moving so much air, and they tend roll off the very bottom anyway - they integrate beautifully with music - but they are not brutes. You already have much more air output capabilty with the MAXX's, as it has 2 13" and 2 10's - so adding 2 more 12's isn't really all that much.
The reason to add any subs to a speaker like a MAXX is to augment in addition to the speakers low bass, and be able to "overdrive" the extreme bottom end to help with the room loss. I would want to have the output of at least a pair of 15's for this task. Actually - I would rather use a really good digital eq before getting into the subs anyway, as it will allow for correction over more than just the very bottom octave.
In my store we have NEVER had linear bass response below about 35 hz until we had active room correction. In 2 different rooms with many truly full range speakers, we never got below about 35hz and always had plump sounding upper bass - no matter where we moved the speakers to. Active eq or room correction has been the only way to extend the low end response and truly clean up the upper bass.
If you properly eq, there's a good chance you will not need subs, as the speakers are capable of full range response on their own. However, most eq's are digital- not analog. If you want to go from an analogue pre amp- you need to find a used cello pallete. Digital eq's would go between the transport and then the dac goes to the pre amp like normal. If you list all of your components it would help.
If you want to add subs with serious low end and super speed and transparancy, you should look at the wisdom audio sts subwoofer. I should disclose that I am a dealer and sell these. However, it is the best subwoofer I've ever heard. It is a pair of 15's in a regenerative transmission line enclosure. You can go to the wisdom aid owe site and read awhile paper on this. It is big. It is 101db sensitive. It goes down to a legitimate 15 to 20 and will move as much air as roughly 5 or 6 watch dogs or jl113's (which I also sell). It is unbeleivably fast and transparent. It is the sub I would use, if you want to add subs. There is no reason whatsoever to think that they need to be stereo subs. If you did this, you should run the maxxes full range and simply add the subs- I would try 30 to 50 hz as a crossover point. This will allow you to add more energy into the room where the maxxes are beginning to roll off ( due to room anomolies- no fault of the maxxes) and you have a good chance to linearize the bass response. Check it out- it's a beast, and the fastest, quickest bass I know of.
i had Cello Palette SIV and MIV ..and sold them, as if i need a EQ again.. i like to try something different, i do sell a lot of cello at asia, and i always keep a pair of cello performance II..as it drive almost all speaker whatever i plug in without too much matching issue
at this moment, i am using a pass labs XP-20, Cello Performance II and Meridian 808.2
it is very fine to be a dealer and share here, i suppose most dealer enjoy this hobby too
thx for your advice
Sorry, I was on family vacation. I have used Tara Omega, and currently use Transparent Opus. Both are excellent, however the transparent are unparalleled in my (limited) experience. I have demoed a few others (Valhalla, Kubala) which had definite weaknesses. I would try the best transparent you can afford. I'm sure there are others who may have cheaper recommendations. Despite what has been written since my last post, I stick with the JL113 recommendation. The Alexandrias have even more woofers than the Maxx and they still benefit greatly from the subs (which have smaller woofers). Plus you can place then wherever you like to reinforce them, and they have room correction.