subs for Sonus Faber Cremona M floor standing

I use 2 REL Stadium subs with my Gamut L5s, which are similar in size and frequency response to the SFs. I was looking for a pair of Cremonas myself before I got a great deal on the Gamuts. The JL is suppose to be very good also but I haven't heard them.

I from time to time use a REL Stentor with my Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor Ms.

I used to use 2 REL Stentors and withim the last 48 hrs have been fine tuning a JL f113 which already is outperforming the Stentors! Faster, more muscular and the JL has a sense of effortlessness that is just wonderful.
(dealer disclaimer)

Dear Erictye: Your Cremona ones crossover 400hz from woofer to midrange and this means that using two active subwoofers in true stereo fashion ( the subs has to have high-pass filter. Rels does not have so you need other option. ) will gives you a great improvement in the quality performance level of your system, not only " more bass " I'm talking of overall quality level because two subs in stereo fashion helps to lower the IMD of your main speakers. You will be amazed when you hear this kind of set-up. Yes, the Cremona's will work as your main-satellite speakers in your " new " bi-amp speaker system.

Please if you have time read these links:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&31&4#31

Now, I use Velodyne subs for very good reasons and between them is that IMHO no one knows more about subs that Velodyne, they have 28+ years designing/build subs and only subs. His patented servo controled/accelerometer sense the woofer response/behavior around 16,000 times every single second and correct when it need it and this helps, between other things , to achieve the lowest THD on any sub out there: lower than 0.5% at 120dbs!!!

You can read more on these subs here:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-dd-18/velodyne-dd-18-subwoofer-first-impressions

No, I don't have any single relationship in anyway with Velodyne other that I'm an owner.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I am using the JL Audio F110 with what are already essentially "full range" speakers and love it! looking for a second to add to the system, not for overall gain but just smoothing of the room nodes. That being said, I would probably be just as happy with the Velodyne DD10 (or especially, the new DD+ series). Both companies make incredible products that are able to integrate into almost any room and any system. Can't see going wrong with either of these.

JLs not only have beastly build quality, they have a suite of controls and features to blend the sub with your speakers *and* the room--adjustment controls for continuously variable phase control over a wide range, volume, crossover, a polarity switch, and ARO (automatic room optimization) complete with calibrated microphone.

I've heard a pair of Magnepan 20.1's augmented with a pair of Fathom F212's and the integration was completely seamless. Although the JLs are capable of great power and thunder, they are also the best I've heard on seamlessly integrating for a music system and never calling attention to themselves.

I have an audiobuddy who uses the $679 sealed SVS to augment his Magnepan 1.7s and he likes it a lot. The SVS's seem to be a pretty good value. Their 13" driver reminds me of the JL approach, and their $2K 3-port model (using that 13" driver) has four rolloff profiles, depending on how many ports you plug. All 3 ports plugged creates a gentle rolloff that extends usable FR to around 14 Hz. That would be a good config for music. The gentle rolloff also avoids the big port resonance boom, so again, it's better for blending for music than with all ports firing.

I just acquired a REL T5 to mate with my SF GH's. I have a very small room, so a larger sub most likely would quickly overload the room. What size is your room? A JL is probably a good choice for a larger room, not so good for a smaller room.

Daveyf have to disagree.......even a large JL sub can be used in a small room by decreasing the output, yes you could easily get by with a less expensive option but you could decrease the larger subs output to match the room and speakers IMHO.

I disagree with Rauliruegas about how to use the subs. I have found it ALWAYS better to run the speakers full range and only use the subs to augment the very bottom end. True, you don't relieve the amp of some work but on the other hand you are not running the signal through another crossover which will invariably degrade the sound. If you like the sound you now have and just wish to augment the bass I suggest that this is the way to go. If you want to play louder with more boom go the other way.

Dear Stanwal: +++++ " I have found it ALWAYS better to run the speakers full range and only use the subs to augment the very bottom end. " +++++

your approach is only an alternative and is the way sub's suppose to use it but things over years changed and there are other choices to do it all depend what we are looking for.

My approach is extremely precise/clear on what are the targets:

1- achieve lower way lower IMD from the main speakers especially those where the woofers crossover 150hz+ ( that's the case with the Cremona. ).
2- achieve better system quality performance level.
3- achieve better bass quality performance level and
4- achieve lowest bass response with the lowest THD.

of course that if you can't understand the critic importance on speaker IMD then you can't understand my approach that's is way different from yours and for very good reasons where the main target is: improve system quality performance level, I'm looking for excellence level nothing less.

Your approach is the old typical one where quality/excellence meaning almost has no real " significance ".

Stanwal IMHO you need to read the links I posted and this one too, if you read with care you could understand what I'm talking about. Btw, you can read in my Agon virtual system how I have that set-up. This is the link of what Vandersteen thinks about:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&84&4#84

Btw, I already try every single approach/alternative to blend and achieve the system excellence quality performance target in my system.
Which are your experiences, I mean with which speakers/system, with the alternative I posted here?

I forgot, IMD is critical on the subject and when goes lower the results is nothing less than astonish.

The other critic area when we are talking on bass response through sub's is THD ( of course if we care about quality level. ) and IMHO we have to look for the lowest THD on subs, because I'm talking of quality not only " bass " ( bass can be achieved by any sub but top quality bass only 2-3 subs out there, of course that we have to be aware/discern what means: bass and low bass quality ).

As I posted Velodyne has the lowest one THD: 0.5% where he JL Audio has: " Distortion: <6.5% THD at 50Hz ", this means that the JL Audio has a " good " but distorted bass response and means too that that spec is at 50hz: we can imply that at around 20hz the JL Audio THD distortion is even higher, maybe in the 12%-15% !!!! against the 0.5% in the Vs.

To choose a subwoofer for atwo channel audio system is not and easy task is a seriously choice if we want the best system performance. It needs know-how according our each one targets.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: IMHO I think that in the subwoofer audio topic there is a lower knowledge level ( more ignorance. ) that we could think.

Read this link in this same forum:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1322145485&openflup&9&4#9

where he stated: " +++ Subwoofers are more trouble than rewarding. " ++++

and like this there are alot of posts/threads on the subject where we can read about that low knowledge level on the whole subject.

I think some people talk about subs with out knowing what they are talking about.

If we know about subs this sole " move/play " IMHO can give us more rewardings that any other change in a decent audio systems for the subs kind of money invested.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Thorus be a sport.

Sksos1, I agree that one can always decrease the output of the sub....However, I do not think that in a small/very small room that is the best solution. To use a JL Fathom, for example in a 10 x11 room, would seem to me to be a mistake. Not only would you be potentially under driving the Fathom, but IMHO you would be likely to overload the room with VERY minor volume increases. Synergy is HIGHLY important in our system building and room matching, just IMHO.

Sonus Faber makes a Cremona Subwoofer M in their Cremona Collection.

That seems like a good place to start for system matching.

Well, just as I thought, A seemingly simple question is anything but ;) To start off, my room size is 16 x 30. My couch is right in the middle. I was considering the Rel G1 but have entertained cheaper models. That said, with what I have invested in my system it seems like a bad move to go with a cheap sub. Ultimately, I am looking for synergy with my system and not looking for the bass to be it's own entity if you will. Johnnyb53 probably makes the most logical statement the SF does make it's own sub. That said, I also know that certain products (subs especially) can be a bit of a specialized market. In the end, I am sure whichever I go with will be fine. A tremendous thanks for all thoughts... and opinions. They are always welcomed. I myself when it comes to crossover points etc. is beyond my knowledge base. Beyond this, any other chatter is welcome but thought I would drop in.

Dear Erictye: +++++ " I am looking for synergy with my system... " +++++

absolutely right and more than the whole system must be IMHO " synergy with the Cremonas " and this IMHO too means understand in precise way where is the weak area of those speakers and how improve it through subs integration.

My advise is that try to understand the IMD subject and after that decide about. No, IMHO the Cremona subs is not the best " road " even that because is a Sonus Faber product that could means synergy. Take this as a true statement is a mistake: synergy IMHO is understand the specific needs of those speakers and the subs that mate it in the best way.

Of course that you can go for the Cremona subs but nothing can tell you for sure that will be a the best match.

The subject is deeper than that especially if you care about quality performance level.

I don't care what will be your choice that care is for you but my advise has very good reasons that I can't read in any of all the other posts here, maybe because all those persons can't yet understand the real use of subs in a two channel audio home system. Again, IMHO you need to understand in precise way the whole subject.

It is not whom is right or has reason in this thread, it is to know about and that's all.

Anyway your call.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I think raul must know everything about everything.

If the speakers are good you dont need any.DUDE

No, IMHO the Cremona subs is not the best " road " even that because is a Sonus Faber product that could means synergy. Take this as a true statement is a mistake: synergy IMHO is understand the specific needs of those speakers and the subs that mate it in the best way.

Are you serious? If the Cremona M Sub isn't a good match for the Cremona M Floorstanding Speaker, then Franco Serblin and his whole operation should just pack up and go home.

There are several 3rd party subs that would work well--ones that offer the tools you need for a good blend--crossover points, continuously variable phase control, variable damping, and especially automated setup with EQ.

Still, the Cremona M sub is designed by people who know the Cremona M speaker's sensitivity, dispersion pattern, rolloff profile, crossover points, rise time, impulse response, and phase angles. I'm going to make a wild guess that they took those factors into account when designing a sub for it, especially when you consider that SF is known for a seamless, well-integrated house sound.

Add me to the run mains full range camp. Especially if you're happy with the mains down low and are only looking for some depth and a tad more slam. I actually had to fight myself to buy into this. Had always heard that cutting off the mains and getting 100% of the bass from the subs was the right way to go. played with all the settings on my dd12 for weeks trying to get it to sound as good as full range to the mains. I couldn't do it.

My gear sounded *much* better to my ears when running full signal to my aerial 7b's. With my dd12 volume set at a very low 11/100, it blends in seamlessly and gives me the bottom end I was looking for.

If there's something you don't like about your mains down low, I could see cutting them off. If a little more body and hit way down low is all you need, I think running full range mains is often the best way to go imho.

Cheers

Dear Johnnyb53: Design and build speakers is a totally independent audio design area, a different totally different area/subject.

Subwoofer design is a especialized area where you need different level knowledge that for speaker designs. Subwoofers IMHO is not part of the whole Speaker Area/Market is IMHO a totally independent area.

It is like a tonearm and TT: both different, with different targets and different needs.

As I said the subs subject is an especilized one and no I don't think that the Cremona subs can be better match for the Cremona speakers that and aftermarket one like the Velodynes or even the JL ones.

Till today I know no single speaker manufacturer that designed/build a subwoofer that can not only outperform but match better to his own speakers that those ones named here.

Many of you don't think so but subwoofers is not only an especialized audio area but a serious subject that needs good knowledge level to make the right decicions when we want to integrated in our home audio systems.

Yes, the subwoofer for a two channel systems is a misunderstood whole subject. I learned after several mistakes and that's why I posted what I posted and I can tell you that no one can argue about.
Till today I did not found out any person that integrated subs in true stereo fashion with afater market units that is not satisfied or left it.

Read this link where Halcro explain why he left subs:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&207&4#207

and then ( one year latter ) read this one when he take the " sub-buss " again and why:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&322&4#322

and this is only an example in that thread where there are more as are outside that thread.

My advise is try to learn about as I did and as I follow learning each day on almost every audio subject and no I'm not an expert on any audio subject, I'm sharing my first hand experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Tpreaves: No, certainly I did not.

Now, when you are looking for excellence and nothing less that excellence ( I mean on system quality performance. ) then you have a hard work ( like me. ) where we have to research, test, mistakes and learn. This cycle repeats several a lot of times till we learn an achieve the target and then the next audio link.
It took me 3-4 years to learn about subs and to learn why everything we learned about was wrong.

The main lesson I learned was and is that a subs integration is not for more deep bass but to lower the IMD distortion type of the main speakers and then comes the intrinsic subs advantages but these ones are IMHO not the main targets. Main target is to lower speakers IMD: this sole " characteristic " makes the difference for the better if you can discern about.

Main differences between two or more different audio systems is the knowledge level of each one system owner.

In audio as in other life areas know-how is the name of the game.

I have a very simple " method " to improve my knowledge level in audio: I always question every audio subject know-how I had/have with simple questions: is there a better way to do it/to achieve it? or what is wrong with that? or why thing have to be in that way? or is it true?

Many audio information that we already have and that's our each one background is absolutely wrong and many are only false myths that the AHEE by convenience teached and tech to us.

The subs subject is a clear example of that: where that is not what we always thinked.

Anyway, mi message here is to improve each single day " walking " with an open mind to learn and learn from any one at any moment in any place.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Johnnyb53: Please don't misunderstood me: I'm not telling that SF does not know how to design/build subs but specialized subs manufacturer IMHO have deeper knowledge about.

Maybe the main challenge to any sub other that goes deep on the 20hz and down is to handle its frequency range with aplomb and that's means with the same aplomb/accuracy that the main speakers and this means with low low THD distortion type.

All what we have on audio and audio systems IMHO is inside DISTORTIONS whole subject. A better quality performer system that other system is better only/mainly because has lower DISTORTIONS at each link in the audio system chains than the other.

The home audio system " enemy " ( other that each one of us it self. ) to beat has a name: Distortions, as we go lower on system overall distortions as better system quality perfromance level we achieve.

When I listen an audio home systems first target is not to hear how good it sounds but look for distortions: which kind and where.

On subs is the same we have to look ( everything the same ) for the lowest subs distortions figures.

Velodyne is my bench-mark with that glorious lower than 0.5% on THD. This measure of distortion can be achieved only because Velodyne engineering level and deep research over time where brought its servo-accelerator that sense/watch 16,000 times each second the woofer movements/behavior to avoid: guess what? yes DISTORTIONS.

Johnny, when I was searching and learning about what to choose for my system I emailed to any single subs manufaturer asking for information on performance. I asked the sub THD at 120db at 20hz, 110db and 100db and guess what? no one but Velodyne gives me that information.
All answer me and give me several information around that THD measures but the true is that no one even had on hand.

Don't trust in me: send an email to SF asking the same. Could be interesting for all to read which is the Cremona sub's THD and if you can ask for its frequency response range because in its site they don't mentioned or at least I can't find out.

Yes, Johnnyb53 we have to start to learn about distortions from a different point of view that we are accustom to.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Thank you Raul. you couldn't of explained it any more eloquently. To Ebm, the Cremona M is one of the finest speakers I have had the privilege to listen to. I have heard speakers well over the 100k mark. I prefer the SF. I have always had a 15" woofer on Klipschorns so this took some getting used to. There is nothing wrong with these speakers. This is my pursuit of audio nirvana and the ability to try different pieces to see how they improve or change an existing sound. As for Johnny... Raul has said it all. I am sure SF subwoofer is exceptional. Why is it that over half the reviews out there mate the SF with a Rel sub?

12-08-11: Erictye
... I am sure SF subwoofer is exceptional. Why is it that over half the reviews out there mate the SF with a Rel sub?

Maybe because REL--like SF--is also distributed in the US by Sumiko, and until SF came up with their own sub it was the package that the distributor--Sumiko--supplied to the reviewer. Also, since REL has a full line of subs, it was relatively easy to match a sub to a given speaker line (such as a T8 to the Toy series). With that in mind, the better question might be, "Why, with REL as a sister company, did Sonus Faber take on the development and marketing costs to come up with their own Cremona M subwoofer?

Raul: For all your words you haven't told me a thing I don't already know. However, I can't buy your dismissal of a general speaker maker as having a disadvantage in subwoofer design given that any company can hire just about any designer it wants. John Curl designs electronics for Parasound. Nelson Pass has done it for Adcom. D'Agostino desgined for Aragon. Hsu designed (or consulted) on the Outlaw subwoofer designs. I have no doubt that Sonus Faber hired all the specialized help it needed to come up with a subwoofer to meet their high standards of musical coherency and seamless integration--the areas most elusive in matching subs to mains.

As for Velodyne, its accelerometer/feedback design and low advertised THD is essentially an electro-mechanical version of the negative feedback loops used in amplifier design. Feedback loops were used to excess in the "THD wars" of the late '70s receivers, and only resulted in lower numbers--not better sound--to sell more receivers.

I'm not saying Velodyne's accelerometer is an ineffective gimmick, just that it doesn't prove that it's superior to JL, REL--or Sonus Faber.

Dear Johnnyb53: I don't want that you " buy " nothing I said it. This another example: Velodyne worked in the past and designed a pair of normal speakers that they marketed for no more than two years but fail to really introduce in the speaker's market and everyone knew Velodyne as a good subwoofer manufacturer.
Believe me, is more easy to hire J.Curl or other electronics designers that a top subwoofer designer: because there is not!.

Velodyne is IMHO absolutely superior to JL or REL and maybe (I because I don't hear it yet ) to SF too.

Every sub out there makes: boom boom, my point is not that but that that boom boom can be accurate and with the lowest distortion you can achieve and these two targets are the ones that makes the difference.

Now, you have to be prepared to discern and be aware about those differences and you know what: it is not an easy task to discern on that bass frequency range, you need to be trained if not almost everything will be for you: boom boom.

Specs on subs are really important because we need to know the sub behavior under some circumstances and when we are talink of Velodyne or other top sub as the ones named here we are talking not on a " new kid on the block " but we are talking of top knowledge with patents in the product design that speaks for it self.

The subjecvt here when talking about subs is what are you looking for: boom booommm or quality level performance in your system through improving the main speakers own performance along the best you can get from subs works.

Rel, SF or JL has nothing to control the woofer behavior but the inside amps that are not enough to achieve 0.5% on THD, this is vital/crucial when you are speaking about quality.

To know if those better numbers means something you have to have first hand experiences between all those different subs, there is no other way and remember that we are not in the 70's, things already improve about and about the importance of several numbers out there in each audio link in each one audio system chain.

Of course that if you are of the people that only say: " I like it " " I like what I heard " then we have nothing to talk because you really don't care on what you are hearing and my self always care on what I'm hearing.

Johnny, I don't care about Velodyne. I take it as an example not because I own it but only to exemply the importance to inform on subs before any choice could make it.

Subs as a whole is a " new product " " a new kid in the/b " where exist a lot of misunderstanding and where we have to take care about.

Good that you already know what I posted. What I can't understand is that if you already have all the knowledge level about why disagree with no real and precise arguments.

All what I posted not came from reading here or by my imagination but by experiences a lot of experiences in different audio systems.

Don't " buy " nothing but at least give us your proved arguments. I don't care whom has reason but I like to learn and and want it because certainly could be I can be wrong and need to re-set.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,
I own a pair of SF Cremonas along with a REL R505 subwoofer. I would like to add a second sub, and was considering another 505, but after reading your posts I am now considering a Velodyne or 2. However, I also have the option of 2 Rel 505's along with a Velodyne SMS-1 for sub equalization. What is your experience or thoughts on this combination? I have an integrated amp, so I don't think it will be possible to roll off the bottom end of the Cremonas using the SMS-1. I would use the SMS-1 only to modify the sub output.

Thanks
Mike

Dear Fundsgon: According to Velodyne the SMS-1 has a fixed ( 80 hz. ) high-pass ( http://www.velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_guide.pdf ) so you can roll-off the bas in your SF speakers and use it with two Rels or the other option you named: two Velodynes.

I never heard that REL model but we have to take in count the very good quality sound on those SF ( I owned one of its first monitors and were impressive: Extrema. ) and IMHO the Velodynes could match in better way the SF quality performance level but all depend on yoor targets/priorities.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

If you're going to have matching subs, then get *matching subs*. The R505 is possibly discontinued, but is fortunately available for half price at Vanns.com. And if you want the easier blend, get the Velodyne SMS-1.

Also, you probably don't need to run your Cremonas above a high-pass filter. A lot of people are finding that running the mains full range helps get a good blend in many cases.

So... The Velodyne DD15 (not the plus) are on a wicked sale right now... too big for the SF Cremona M floorstanders?

Dear Erictye: IMHO there is almost no-so big for " these speakers " but the other way around: too small.

The DD-15 could works very good with your Cremona's, I can't see any trouble about and when you have two subs in true stereo fashion you can place it almost " everywhere ": see my Agon virtual to see that the place/room position of mines is not " orthodox " one.

If I was you and due that are on " sale " I just go a head. DEven if you don't like it ( that I seriously doubt. ) you always can put on sale with almost no lose because everyone wants it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Johnnyb53: +++++ " A lot of people are finding that running the mains full range helps get a good blend in many cases. " +++++

absolutely right but all those people have that kind of set up because that was they learned through the AHEE and that's the old and IMHO wrong way to set up subs for a two channels system when you have passive speakers that crossover 100hz and up.

You posted you already know everything I posted so please think on what you are saying because seems to me that as in the Analog forum you are biased " against " not what I post but against " me ", I don't care but this can't make a good thing for you.

Johnny, maybe I'm wrong about that " biased against... " but if not : how could you explain that in the longest and dedicated Agon thread about MM/MI cartridges you almost don't posted when you are an avid fan of MM cartridges. Even that I invite you to share your value experiences about and help all the other people that need does experiences?

Anyway, this is a free forum and as always my posts are always trying to help other persons and not the: who win attitude so often in these kind of forums.

Regards and enoy the music,
R.

Raul, IMHO, a sub that matches well with SF Cremona M's is going to be a sub that is suitable for Erictye's room. Whatever sub that he ends up with will have to be fairly quick and easy to 'blend' with the Cremona's. In my system, the answer was the Rel T5, because a) I have a very small room and anything larger will overload it and 2) my mains (SF GH's) are lighting fast and I know of no large driver ( we're talking 10" and above) subs that are quick enough to match these mains, so the REl was the answer . If one is looking for more extension and they have a larger room than I along with slower mains, then i suspect that most if not all of the larger Velodyn'e would be fine, just IMO.

One other thing that I forgot to mention in the Rel's favor....the hook-up scheme is IMO better than competing designs. The Neutrik connector allows a hi-level connection directly at the amp terminals, which allows the signal to be more precise to what the speakers are seeing at the amp terminals. I do think that this leads to a more "accurate" reproduction than taking the signal from the preamp, as in all other models that i am aware of......again, IMHO.

He's my dilemma: I already have one REL 505, and I can find another on 'Gon for about $1000. If I switch to the Velodyne DD12 (same piston size as the 505)I will want/need 2 and the cost will run to $3000+ if I buy them used.

My question is, will 2 DD15's truly outperform 2 505's? I mean hands down, no questions asked undeniably better?

Thanks,
Mike

Okay - just back from the Velodyne website where I found the Optimum 12. The Optimum 12 is a bit more than half the price of the DD12 plus - so what would I give up if I go with the Optimum 12 over the DD12? And is there any experience with the Opti 12?

Would the Opti 12 be considered better than the REL505?

Dear Daveyf: Options always are open, IMHO all depend on each one targets/priorities on quality level performance.

+++++ " my mains (SF GH's) are lighting fast and I know of no large driver ( we're talking 10" and above) subs that are quick enough to match these mains, " +++++

this link touch that " myth ":

http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Fundsgon: You can get these couple for less that you stated:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1327021301&/Velodyne-DD-12-Piano-gloss-bla

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1328659975&/Velodyne-DD-12-Piano-gloss-bla

I think that you can make some money when you sold the REL.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, why do you think that speaker manufacturers do not use 12"tweeters or even for that matter many 12" midrange drivers. OTOH, why do you think that subwoofer manufacturers do not use 1" woofers? The ability of the driver to push air may have something to do with it, NO? IMHO, the large 12" -18" drivers just do NOT sound that fast in compared to say a tweeter of 1".....an 8" driver cannot move as much air as a 18" driver, BUT to my ears it's a lot faster sounding in the mid bass- upper mid bass area. ( which is where most of the bass instruments are producing sound)
So is it really a myth, or do you let your ears do the walking and talking, or your .:0)

Dear Daveyf: IMHO it is not only the driver dimension/size but which kind and size of magnet, woofer build material, build shape and overall construction and build excecution. In the other side and between other things the amp damping factor count too.

Now, IMHO there are no perfect drivers and one way or the other exist trade-offs and our choice will depend on our targets because if we want " flat " bass frequency down to 18-20hz then a 8" driver can't do it.

Normally when we are asking for a sub we are asking for that low kind of bass.

IMHO low bass is the frequency range more difficult to achieve/reproduce on accurate way and that's why I posted the importance to analyze/research in deep before any choice.

The subs subject and understanding on two channel system is so " new " that even some subs manufacturers has no clear and precise answer about, almost all take the add-on subs mainly as the traditional way: as a bass re-inforcement system but for me and my frist hand experiences with different audio systems is that that " traditional " way of think regarding subs is wrong or at least incomplete way incomplete.
That's why RELs has no high-pass function.

I'm not sure how good are the SF people about but maybe if you ask them how to mate their Cremonas with subs maybe ( maybe not. )they could tell you that the Cremonas in full range fashion and subs as " only " reinforcement bass.

Anyway, the subject is open to questions/answers and obviously IMHO there is no one answer for every single system/room circumstances.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Well just an update, looks like I am picking up a JL F113 this weekend. I realize that I have to start somewhere. I was real close to the Velodyne as per Raul's advice and some research I did. I unfortunately got the JL bug and need to put it to rest. I will post my thoughts as they come. Thanks again for everyone's two cents. Now I see why I was confused on the matter.

12-14-11: Erictye
Well just an update, looks like I am picking up a JL F113 this weekend.

Oooh. I think you're going to be really happy with that. Congratulations.

Well I just set up the sub for about 20 minutes now. I had a DBX drive rack PA kicking around. I had to run some cheaper lines as my Purist are rca only. All I can say at this point is I am definitely getting another sub. This is exactly what I was missing. I need to do a bit of fine tuning yet. I have a question. On my C2300 I have to outputs to go to amps. Can I run the sub amp directly to the second set of outputs thus eliminating the DBX drive rack. What are the pros, cons doing it either way.

12-05-11: Stanwal
... I have found it ALWAYS better to run the speakers full range and only use the subs to augment the very bottom end. True, you don't relieve the amp of some work but on the other hand you are not running the signal through another crossover which will invariably degrade the sound. If you like the sound you now have and just wish to augment the bass I suggest that this is the way to go. If you want to play louder with more boom go the other way.

This is predominantly my experience as well. I have done eight different subwoofer installations, and in most cases (especially for music-only) I get the best sound running the mains full range and leaving them out of an additional crossover, while blending in the sub from the bottom up. The only system where I use a high pass crossover to the main speakers is in my home theater setup. In that case, the crossover is to take the strain off the smaller center and surround speakers, but I still run the L-R floorstanders (Mirage M5si's, good to around 26 Hz) full range. And I get the best overall sound and clarity setting the sub crossover to 40 Hz.

For my current 2-channel music-only system I run Mirage OMD-15s full range and use a pair of Mirage MM8's crossed at 50 Hz to augment the low bass only.

Running the mains full range seems counter-intuitive, but even running them that way I still experience more 3-D imaging--the main musical images pop out into 3-D, and the dynamics are subjectively improved. Again, counter-intuitive, but it works for me.

12-17-11: Erictye
Well I just set up the sub for about 20 minutes now. I had a DBX drive rack PA kicking around. I had to run some cheaper lines as my Purist are rca only. ... I need to do a bit of fine tuning yet. I have a question. On my C2300 I have to outputs to go to amps. Can I run the sub amp directly to the second set of outputs thus eliminating the DBX drive rack. What are the pros, cons doing it either way.

How are you using the DBX Drive Rack PA now in relation to your Cremona Ms and the F113 sub? Are you using it for room correction, as a high pass crossover to the Cremonas, or both? If you're using it for high pass, before you try much else, try running the Cremonas full range, and blend in the F113 from the bottom until you notice it, and then back off until it totally blends. It won't cost you anything and it may make wiring for a second sub much easier.

Ok this part of wiring is new to me so bear with me. Running full range... that would be running SF and sub out of the back of the C2300 and removing the CBX from the equation. Do I hook up the sub into the output 2? I also just came across some diagrams as well. Or Is this what you mean?

http://www.audioc.com/library1/images/hookup/mhookupe.gif

12-18-11: Erictye
Ok this part of wiring is new to me so bear with me. Running full range... that would be running SF and sub out of the back of the C2300 and removing the CBX from the equation. Do I hook up the sub into the output 2? I also just came across some diagrams as well. Or Is this what you mean?

http://www.audioc.com/library1/images/hookup/mhookupe.gif

Yes, that's basically it. Send one preamp signal to your amp and another to the sub. Let the sub's built-in crossover, volume, and phase controls (plus its room setup software) do the heavy lifting.

Your C2300 has multiple outputs, both in single-ended and balanced versions. Run one stereo pair of interconnects directly to your MC2102 amp and another pair directly to your JL F113. When you add a second sub, connect one sub interconnect to each of the subs, using the sub's left channel input for each. The JL is wired so that if you use the left input only it functions as a mono input. It's very simple that way, and you could use balanced interconnects for either or both runs as both your amp and the JL can take either kind.

You must have a beautiful sounding setup. I can't think of a much better combo for musical satisfaction than Sonus Fabers and McIntosh tube electronics.

Ok thanks, I figured it was that easy but.... I always like to be sure before sticking my ends into strange holes ;)

Pshaw!! I have heard Krell and Bryston with the Sonus and although very nice in a solid state kind of way... but I believe tubes rule. Out of curiosity, what system would you recommend?

12-18-11: Erictye
Pshaw!! I have heard Krell and Bryston with the Sonus and although very nice in a solid state kind of way... but I believe tubes rule. Out of curiosity, what system would you recommend?

Honestly my ultimate dream system could easily be what you have, or an expansion on it, such as a more powerful Mac tube amp powering the Stradivari Homages. Also, your preamp/amp/speaker combo is capable of such high resolution musicality that I hope you have a nice turntable rig to hear its full capabilities. In that case I'd be happy with a DPS/Ayre turntable and tonearm, or something from Clearaudio in the same general price range.

Other gear I like is Wilson powered by Audio Research or VTL (they also like tubes a lot). I haven't heard the TADs yet, but based on the desriptions I think I'd like those too.

I also like Magnepans when properly set up, and they really take off when accompanied by a pair of JL subs.

Ahh yes, I could build a system in every room of my house and still find more to want. As for turntables, I have a Garrard 301 with sme3012r arm as well as a Nottingham Spacedeck, I am also waiting for a Technics RS-1700 r2r that I am having completely rebuilt. So as for analog... yes I'm good... for now ;) I must say though, that I do miss my Klipschorns but for now they had to go. As for the TADs, from what I have read as well they must be exceptional.

There is really no better subwoofer to use for music than a REL. If you argue this, you do not know subwoofers. A JL Audio is great in a car or a home theater. I have a pair of Cremona towers and a pair of REL Storm III subs.