What business are you in? What do you provide for free? How do you earn your money? I want to come buy and waste your time so that I can take your advice and then find a better deal somewhere else. Can't wait until no dealers are left and you have to buy something new direct or used. Maybe used with no opportunity for repair, how does that sound?
Hey folks, let's talk about the dollar amount of sales here, along with the profit margins on high end audio equipment. If I am contemplating dropping $20,000 on a pair of speakers, is it so unreasonable that I ask the store manager not to be an idiot? I mean, these guys are looking at making $8,000 for a couple of hours of their time. Is it so unreasonable that I want my new speakers that cost multiples more than my old ones to sound better to me than my old ones? Also, how many of you folks net $8,000 on an average sale? Is that an every day occurrence for most of you?
I think that the amount of internet savings plays a big role in making your decision who to purchase from. If the brick & mortar store is a considerable amount more, then this should ease your conscience about buying online. Tell them the online price and ask for their best price, followed by "is that the best you can do?"
Tell them that you like to support retailers, but at the same time you aren't made of money and the internet helps you afford these expensive toys. If he wants the sale, he will work it out with you. If he isn't willing, do what's right for you.
If these retailers get put out of business by the internet, there won't be anyplace to actually hear these devices. We'll be buying on reviews, word of mouth, and not with our ears. Give him every opportunity to work out a mid-ground that is fair for both of you.
I mean, these guys are looking at making $8,000 for a couple of hours of their time
Hardly. Consider the payroll spent on all the time required to order, stock, and display the gear, the time spent by salespersons standing around waiting for customers, dealing with tire-kicking customers who do not purchase, and helping with post-sale advice, set-up, and consulting. Not to mention the cost of stock, discounts on items that do not sell,
employee training,
employee benefits, rent, cleaning, bookkeeping, etc. etc. I would not want to be in that business.
is it so unreasonable that I ask the store manager not to be an idiot?
Not at all. Capitalism is all about voting with your wallet. I wouldn't buy from an idiot and in America you don't have to either.
There is a local high end around here that happens to sell used LP's. So after listening to stuff I'll "probably" never be able to afford, I'll grab an LP or two.
Like chazro also, I think it's more for my conscience than their financial support.
If I ever win the lottery tho, that'll be the first place I visit!
It’s theft. And not the cool kind of theft that comes from desperation
and need of basic necessities like food, shelter and clothing. It’s the
narcissistic type of theft that comes from a lack of a moral compass.
+1 viridian
OP said:
moral compass" is an outdated concept. It has never been particularly popular, besides, it can be interpreted very differently. ..
"moral compass" is directly connected to some authority
to which it could be connected.
Sorry, don't I don't buy that. IMO, we all establish our own moral compass. If you need an outside authority to establish one, then it's not a moral compass. I don't need or want anyone to tell me what's moral or ethical.
I have a "personal rule" that I will not buy used, what I listen to in a store, until it is a generation old, and they are not selling it anymore.
I will buy used, at a price I can turn around and sell, just to hear the product. That is fun for me. This is easy except for speakers, but I am starting a collection of those.
I mostly meant internal authority. It is a very complex concept. We are not exactly born with moral compass, nor do we exactly want to have it. swampwalker, you are an anarchist, just as I am. No-one wants to pay dealers audition fees.
Although I won't waste an audio store owner's time, on the subject of "value added," for the most part I don't get much value added specifically from the dealer. From the store and the ability to audition a piece of gear, yes. But all the rest - e.g. the idea of a dealer with his audiophile wisdom and experience guiding me through purchases...no...zilch.
Like many here I've been doing this for a loooong time. I've had lots of experience, have done the research, know what I'm interested in and why. I don't need any guru help. And that's one of the things that irks me most when I go to a certain kind of high end store: when the salesman just HAS to yap on via the presumption he knows better than I and must help guide me. The most annoying are the salesmen who just can not turn off this chatty guru-mode. It doesn't matter that in our first 5 minutes of talking I've given obvious evidence I've been at this for a long time, know what I'm talking about and what I want. They will still go on as if I'm a newbie who needs education and help. No. All I need is to hear what I've come to hear, thanks.
The best salesmen by far are the chilled guys who don't swamp you with "How am I going to help you!" patter. Within a few minutes they immediately recognize whether they are talking to an experienced audiophile or not, and when they see this they don't bother asking all the irrelevant questions, they simply let you hear what you want to hear, and don't hover, or operate the system like you are a dolt. They just leave me alone to evaluate the sound.
THOSE are the dealers I have always ended up buying from, because they are the ones that make it possible for a confidence-inspiring audition. Those are the true treasures of the high end audio store.
In all too many experiences of my recent speaker auditioning, the process made me hesitant to want to go back to the store. (Though, there were certainly some very positive experiences as well).
@prof- I was using "value added" to include all of the various elements. I could not agree more with your feelings about the over-chatty or under-knowledged salesperson. Can’t get to the door fast enough. In fact, it's one of the reasons why I don't go into B&M stores much.
@inna- I believe a moral compass, i.e., a strong sense of right and wrong (as opposed to legal vs. illegal or allowed vs. not allowed) is one of the most important if not the most important personality traits one can possess. But it has to be freely adopted and embraced from within, not imposed from an outside source.
@inna- I believe a moral compass, i.e., a strong sense of right and wrong (as opposed to legal vs. illegal or allowed vs. not allowed) is one of the most important if not the most important personality traits one can possess. But it has to be freely adopted and embraced from within, not imposed from an outside source.
+1 Swampwalker, nicely put. Unfortunately, a concept that seems to be receeding these days... B
Great topic , with gentlemen responding. I’m glad to read this thread . I live in Clovis, Ca. Fresno has zero audiophile shops ! ZERO ! Magnolia is high end here. 1 million people in this county and zero . I am totally dependent on you guys for advice . However, I have a local friend that is a former shop owner . He moved into estate law and closed his business. Recently I wanted an item from Rogue . He contacted them on my behalf and asked for dealer price . Being honest, he stated that is was not for him . Rogue politely declined and said “ they support their dealers “. So I went on line and contacted a Midwest dealer . I asked for a “ discount “, and stated there was not a dealer in my area . As a new customer , the rep paused and offered “ 10% off and free shipping “ . Dealer price is about 60%. I thought that was very fair and made a purchase from an authorized dealer with a full warranty . Now to the question of the thread . If I use a store for an audition and advise on compatibility, I buy from them . This pays off too if I have a problem requiring service or repair . I’ve also found that by politely asking , most stores will give a modest discount . Also I lack the knowledge and skill that an expert possesses and the help is well received. So I try to be frugal , but I support the Local Guy, where applicable, like the Local Trek bicycle dealer and the local Gunsmith . Regards , Mike.
Personally speaking I wouldn’t do that. I haven’t done it.
However...one of the MOST annoying aspects of purchasing equipment on A’gon is the 3-4% “fee” most sellers, individuals and bricks and mortar retailers alike, tack onto their merchandise classifieds.
In the past I have tendered offers on classifieds with the caveat that I don’t expect the “fee” to be included in the final agreement. I have sold a fair amount of stuff here and have never levied a fee like that. And I won’t.
When B&M dealers on here state extra fees for credit cards and/or PayPal, I have to wonder if they would have the audacity to try that if I walked into their store. Really? “Thank you sir, and now I must add 3% to the total because you’re using a credit card.” That is total, utter B. S.
Think about the margins here folks; 40% or more, most of the time. When you audition $20,000 in gear, if it's new, $8,000 or so goes right into the dealer's pocket. Now I know bricks and mortar are expensive and so is keeping on the lights. But, how many folks do they need coming in the door looking to drop that kind of coin before they realize they should at least be civil to the customers?
I never do it..... our customers do it all the time and I think it sucks. If you are a dealer , and spend time with me without steering me I will buy from you if you can be somewhat competitive. I made a recent purchase where I did better at a mom and pop than an internet dealer . That is partly due to no tax or shipping but still.... They always treat me right so they are the first to come to mind.
"
When you audition $20,000 in gear, if it's new, $8,000 or so goes right into the dealer's pocket."
Ok, then you have shipping cost, could be $500.00+, so now we have $7,500. Does the dealer offer home delivery & setup, I did, so we have that cost. Then there is rent, utilities, advertising, insurance, security, store furnishings, employees wages, taxes, computer system, etc.,before he realizes any profit. And, many times the profit goes back into inventory. If one wants to get rich, one is already or chooses another path other than a high-end B&M audio store.
While it might initially go "into the dealers pocket", it doesn't stay there for long.
I should say that Audio Visual Therapy in Nashua NH is excellent to deal with and while they didnt have the speakers in the finish i wanted in stock, it was more important that I got to listen to them . They spent time with different amps, putting a sub in the system , etc. Their service is top notch and guess what? It didn't cost any more than if I ordered them on line, and that's definitely not something I would do as they have treated me fair everytime I've been there.
I should say that Audio Visual Therapy in Nashua NH is excellent to deal with and while they didnt have the speakers in the finish i wanted in stock, it was more important that I got to listen to them . They spent time with different amps, putting a sub in the system , etc. Their service is top notch and guess what? It didn’t cost any more than if I ordered them on line, and that’s definitely not something I would do as they have treated me fair everytime I’ve been there.
This parallels my experience rather well with my local dealer, Duane Randleman.
@viridian As a native New Yorker, I share your sentiment. During the '80's I visited just about all the stores in the area, and with the exception of one or two, they all exhibited the traits you described:
Many are more concerned with their needs and likes than that of the customer
But, thankfully, we have Audiogon. And, I have to say that finding John Rutan at Audioconnection was one of the best things that has happened to me. He really knows his stuff, but doesn't preach, and he offers free advice. What more can you want from a dealer? B
I would not disagree with your regarding dealers. I spent about three years in my youth working for one in Denver. Lots of Sansei receivers.
After two kids had grown up I got back into music. Built a couple of Ralph's M-60's and had a pair of MM deCapo's. Sounded crazy good for not a lot of money. Never auditioned either of them. I couldn't have found anything like these at a dealer.
That pushed me to become a dealer. I felt there had to be something better, much better. I did become a dealer, but to find those gems you speak of I had to kiss a lot of frogs. So many frogs.
I totally get your attitude towards dealers, in a perverse way they caused me to become one.
No dealer in Twin Cities sells PSB. Nor would I sell a brand sold heavily on the internet . If they did, I might right this second be listening to a pair of PSB T-3’s as from the reviews they seem like the speaker I’ve always wanted, even though I know my Gallo’s do all that needs to be done .
So, if I go into a dealer more than once I always buy something, if only a used tuner or a 400$ cartridge as I know they are profitable . Only right to do for someone that has saved me $7,000 on a speaker I’ve never heard .
And interestingly, I can’t stand dealers and find them to be the dial telephones of the new century. But I would never use one for showrooming.
Agree with the ethical posture of not taking what you don't pay for.
I have thoroughly auditioned almost everything in my system. Often I have bought used and auditioned with great satisfaction other times bought used using a review w/o audition and wasted hundreds. Reviews are only a starting point. A set of speakers can sound COMPLETELY different given different amplifiers- never mind DACS or preamps! If you skip dealer auditions you may never know how good your system might have sounded. You can also save time and money by avoiding lateral moves. If you buy online to save $$ but SKIP dealer auditions, then I think you are fair. The risk is yours. However, what will the future look like? Disagree that dealers are making money. I remember when there were many more dealers and it seemed more satisfying then. Remember it's a HOBBY. Incredible to read that dealers are making trillions and trillions with extra billions on the side- How is it that so many dealers are closing?? WE are forcing dealers to cater to wealthier customers because typical buyers are not showing up. Audiophiles, audio enthusiasts, dealers, and manufacturers are generally very nice people. I will be very sad when there are NO dealers in my area.
I think if this thread has shown us anything really good dealers are rare and should be prized. If you find one patronize that dealer and treat him fairly and you will be repaid in good advice and likely less money wasted.
Conrad Johnson Classic preamp...lengthy audition, generous trade in, great price
NAD M51 DAC, lengthy audition, best price of anyone , the unit locked up three weeks later and they had a new one two days later.
Klipsch Heresy III , lengthy audition , best price , no shipping, no tax....had them in less than a week.
These are just a few examples but all were purchased locally with top notch service and support.....
Boston and surrounding suburbs had many, many hi fi dealers . I have been into this for 35 + years and remember you couldn't even turn the corner without hitting one. Today there are only a handful.
AV Therapy is one of the good ones, as was Spearit but sadly they are gone , there are a few not so good ones too.
Brick&mortar shops have become 'hot-house flora' that require tending to flourish and thrive, so the answer is obvious, no? ;)
If you treat them seriously, they ought to respond. If they don't or they haven't, they're getting 'fertilized' in some unobvious fashion and feel free to appreciate the blossoms....
(It also helps to be in or near a major population center....one of the top 10 or so really ups ones' odds....For moi', a daytrip minimum. overnight 'speed tour' more likely...)
I remember going to Audio Classics when I was like 17. At the time I was into cd’s mostly and had started buying records because they were cheaper than CD’s. I wasn't ready to purchase, but I had a budding interest in improving my Denon and Design Acoustics Technics direct drive system. They were very unfriendly and it left enough of a mark that I have never gone into a brick and mortar store since. I buy used gear happily. I am even tentative to this day to go back. 20+ years later. It was pretty horrible. I know it is a respected shop, and I am missing out, but it’s just the way things unfolded.
Interesting how some people try to justify actions that aren't justifiable - if you use a dealer to audition, you don't get to then decide unilaterally that the dealer is making "too much" money and thus you are justified in theft of his time.
A good dealer is invaluable and a bad one doesn't get a follow up visit. Good dealers are useful to help you understand what you're looking for and what to consider. I'll always take on a good dealer's comments but will do my own research (in the end, I don't always agree with them). When I'm confident that something is worth auditioning, that's when it's time to use the dealer's time for an audition.
Where I am, there aren't many dealers and they are pushy (you *must* buy immediately) and they don't take trade ins. So I don't buy locally even if they have an item I'm interested in and instead use vacations to visit dealers that are good dealers and with whom I can build a relationship (and who accept trade ins). I'm also not always buying, so if I'm dropping by to say hello and just generally check things out, I'm clear up front that I'm not there to buy anything to make sure I don't waste their time if they have a buyer coming in for a serious audition. I'm probably particularly sensitive to this given that I'm in a service industry myself.
some 30 years ago, when i lived in northern california there was a guitar store where every freakin kid in town would hang out all day and play gear which few of them could afford. i once asked the owner why he didn't kick out the obvious gawkers, and he told me that in due course these kids would grow into affluent consumers and would likely buy from him. i believe the store is still in business, so apparently his approach was sound.
Thanks for that. I have customers who really really appreciate what I do...I should say what I did. Turned 74 last May...I have served our community well ( my opinion of course ) but I am done.
If you want to know what I was about check out the show reports on my website soundsrealaudio.com. Those show reports gave me a lot of satisfaction. I remember one reviewer coming in, played three songs from different artists. Well the next year I say him in the hall and he said " I can't get those three songs out of my head ". I thought that was the very best compliment.
You have great holidays yourself, and plan on how you are going to spend you " huge tax refund " you get in April. Lol
That "huge tax refund" will be in April 2019 when the new tax laws are in effect. The refund you get in April 2018 will be based on the current tax laws.
As someone who has seen many people develop into what I consider to be unethical human beings, I have come to this conclusion- Conscience, once discarded, is not missed.
I don’t know if I coined this phrase, but I haven’t heard it before. Whether or not I was the first to say it doesn’t really matter. It’s still true.
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