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Thanks for the information, Tom. Otherwise this thread is for fruitcakes. |
I think they recommend the SP-SA 103 with their 1.5 inched Audio Points. |
I have tried StillPoints Ultra SSs and Ultra Fives under three different speakers and often tried three versus four. The speakers were the Tidal Contrivas, the BMC Arcadias, and the LSA1 Statements. The latter are monitors and the SPs were used under the stands with the SP OEMs under the speakers.
My conclusions were that all speakers were improved with the SSs but never with the then available version made with aluminum and four were clearly better than three. Then Ultra Fives came along. The Fives are clearly superior to the SSs but are so big as to discourage use under components. Again four are clearly better than three. I use SP Component Stands under my monoblocks and my turntable with first SP SSs and later SP Fives mounted on the Component Stands. The SSs were good but the Fives are dramatically better. The same is true under my Bergman Sindre turntable.
I should note that four are much better if you take great care to be sure all four are equally in contact with the component or speaker. And yes, five are even better.
Finally, there are the Ultra Minis. They are quite small, effective, and cheap. I cannot hear any difference compared with the SSs. Comparing the Fives with the Minis is difficult given the size of the Fives. As the Fives have 5 of the SP technology in them, I doubt four Minis would be in the same league as four Fives. Maybe twenty Minis would rival four Fives. |
Glory, I have sought Sistrum stands and their new BackStage stands to no avail. Other than that IMHO no other isolation device is even close to the StillPoints. I have boxes of points, rubber like footers, string suspension systems, Nuance shelves, etc. |
Roxy54, I want to try them and possibly to review them. I have had people I respect say they are better than the StillPoints, but I will be surprised if they do. |
Yo2tup, try Ultra Minis under the light components. I have a 7 pound line stage on four SP Ultra Fives. I did find that adding weight improved the sound. I anxiously await more Minis to replace the Fives, so that I can use the Fives on top my components where they work much better than the SP LPIs. |
Psag, the StillPoints technology is to convert the vast majority of vertical motion into horizontal motion that is absorbed by the stainless steel and converted into heat. It is not specific to frequency.
In my experience one should avoid putting the STs on or below component feet or footers. I have never found doing so the equal of just avoiding the feet. I would never think of leaving speaker feet in position and using the StillPoints under them.
Since I have never found any Wilson speakers worth buying, I have never tried the SPs under them. |
Psag, I very much like the Phy-hp 30s, but as much as I like and respect Andrew and as often as I have listened to them at shows, I do not like the TADs other than the smallest one.
Of course, I have never tried the Ultra Fives under and the TADs, but I would be shocked were this not a big improvement.
Yo2tup, I got the Ultra Minis in today. They are a lighter sound than the Fives. I have tried a Five on top the line stage and another on the amp. Neither was quite what I had expected given prior experience. I will say nothing more now. An entire set of Ultra Minis is less money than one Ultra Five. |
Well, i guess I want to reopen this thread. I now have seven Star Sound Tech Apprentice Platforms as well as a lot of StillPoint devices. In terms of philosophies the two are quite different as the SPs seeks to convert all vertical vibrations into heat and Star Sound wants to transfer all to ground. They sound quite different also. The Star Sound are very quick sounding with sharp leading edge. The Stillpoints give a very holographic image, which may or may not be real.
Under my speakers the Star Sound platform worked better given the design of the BMC Arcadias as well as sounding better. The same is true under amps and my Koda preamp, which I should say is a hybrid use of both. The Koda sits on an Apprentice, which sits on a Accapella platform sitting on the rails of the Stillpoints Rack.
My best advice is to try both. I also think this thread ignored the Stillpoint Ultra Minis which on light devices are excellent. Most of my source components are on the Ultra Minis. My Nantais Lenco Reference is on a separate Stillpoints Rack on Ultra Fives, which were clearly better than the Ultra SSs. |
Grannyring, I would be very interested in your findings.
What I expect you to hear is speed, quickness, sharp leading edge, whatever you want to call it. It is the 103 with their 1.5" Audio Points that I have. |
Bacardi, I had never heard of them. They look like another effort to find the magic mix of resonance frequencies. I see there is a distributor in Canada, but cannot find if anyone sells them in the US. |
Bacardi, I suppose everyone's opinions rest on what the hear. Were I able to get some of the Oritons, I would try them. Until that they seem just another mix of resonance frequencies that seek to cope with the bad influence of vibrations on circuits, and having tried probably fifty different such devices, I will stick with the StillPoints or the Star Sound Apprentice platform that seek coupling rather than isolation. |
Audiolabyrinth, at least with the HFCables, you hear a very sharp leading edge and the decay of notes in the recording studio or hall. Lead singers do sound to be right in the plane of your speakers. They sound present. |
Theaudiotweak, I haven't looked but is there a table of speed propagations through different materials? And what does one seek-faster or slower? Also is it frequency dependent? I had a good deal of engineering training in undergraduate school but mainly in EE and ME. |
Audiolabyrinth, verbal descriptions are useless. Get a listen to the HFCs. |
Audiolabyrinth, only the audio points differ from between the models. All will support up to 800 pounds, the Audio Points go down as well as up. You don't need to put anything under the Platform. No the benefits are most noticable on electronic including dacs.
Visit their webpage for most of this information. |
Agear, I tried the Apprentices without the cups against the bottom of components and with them. Having them was somewhat better. I do also use them on my hardwood floors. I did try IsoClean feet instead of the Star Sound cups and heard no difference. I would imagine that not using the cups would be better on carpet.
I don't know whether it is the HFC ics, speaker wires, pcs, or the WGPC, the Star Sound Apprentices, the Koda K 10 preamp, or even the new Empirical Audio Legacy music server, but I'm playing louder, enjoying it more, and have had few complaints about the music being too loud. |
Audiolabyrinth, I have noticed the same thing as Grannyring. As I understand it, the Audio Points flatten somewhat and adjust to the load and the steel platform also adjusts to the load. It really doesn't matter as what he says is true.
The speed and sharp leading edge is also characteristic but why? I cannot say that mechanical grounding makes much sense to my understanding of physics, but whatever is going on, works. |
Audiolabyrinth, I have several boxes of the Polycrystal cones that I would just give you were the two of us in Texas right now. But I will not be back there until October. Frankly I hated them as I did the carbon fibre cones. |
Agear, I was unaware of the all brass version of the Star Sound Backstage. Thanks for the head up.
Charles1dad, the Stillpoints Ultra series and their racks, in my opinion, are not displaced by the Star Sound platforms. Platforms cannot replace feet in all circumstances. The two technologies have different characteristics also.
At one point I was totally shocked at how superior the Stillpoint's technology for absorbing vertical vibration were to the nearly countless points and feet of virtually every material and springs of many styles I now have in boxes. I fully understand how this technology works.
More recently I have experienced the Star Sound Technology Apprentices, which I know rest on a completely different thought, namely get the vibrations quickly as possible to ground.
What you hear with these two devices is quite different and a hard choice. One is quick and dynamic, especially evident on brass instruments and drums. The other gives a sound stage that is very defined and real.
Presently I use a mix as small devices do not work on the about 10 by 14 inch platforms and the Star Sound platforms are, as yet, not released. |
Little BO peep, I you are just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. Give it a break, no one has any respect for narcissism. |
Audiolabyrinth, remember what I said. First all I have is the little 1 inch or so round cones. I think I have two sets. And most important they are in Texas and I'm in New Mexico until late Sept. |
Bo1972, you can always spray paint the Audio Points black. And ruin the sound, but hey if looks are most important to you, that shouldn't matter. |
Roxy54, the brass surface on the Audio Points is very important. |
Bo1972, I have no use for anything you say, but you certainly have the right to say it. I will, however, give you a piece of advice that you might entertain, namely polish you SP Ultra 5s until you can see yourself in the reflection. Start with 1000 grit emery fine polishing paper and remove all machining and scrathes, then go to 2000 grit, and finally when it looks very smooth go to 2500 and lastly use metal polish on it being sure that you get no polish in between the parts and onto the ceramic balls. |
Bo1972, your stuff on 2d versus 3d is a crock. Because I put so much into my stereo, which I presume you would call 2d, and especially with SPs, I get a very realistic sound stage and sense of being at the recording venue. Also, if by 3d you mean multi-channel, I have never heard anything that would make me want to buy such. I know no one with a multi-channel setup.
If you don't mean by 2D and 3D what I am saying, please explain your terms. |
P59teitel, did Robert give you any reason to buy the 2 inch Audio Points? I think the 1.5 inchers sound better. |
Jafox, there is a solution, called coupling disks. Actually they sound better when used than without them.
There is a method using scotch tape to hold them on until you have the speaker or component on top. |
Agear, I think vanity and being cheap greatly undercuts your expectation of makers of expensive gear going with the best. I remember what the manufacturer of Tidals and BMC Arcadia' said about my trying other footers under their speakers. |
Glory, yes it makes a difference. Generally, the closer the technology to the component, the biggest improvement. |
Psag, can you tell us more. While I got some improvement with the Ultra 5s under my BMC Arcadias, I always knew that I had been unable to use them right, namely the speakers were just sitting on the Ultra 5s. I was unable to thread bolts into the threaded holes as the weight of the speakers merely pressed the inserts further into the speakers. I also know from another case that the Ultra 5s sitting on thick carpet don't work properly. |
Agear, it is just my opinion but I couldn't stand the original StillPoints. They used a less developed version of the ceramic ball technology and were not of stainless steel.
I don't know what you guys mean by altered tonality or whether there can be an "excess" of micro-detail. Can please explain what you are talking about here? |
Psag, I've had a problem with the concept of "musicality." My interest is in accurately reproducing music not musicality. I know there are many who say that we will never be able to get close to realism. The StillPoints, Star Sound Apprentices, High Fidelity Cables and power cords have these thoughts are wrong. We are getting much closer to realism than I have ever thought possible, but ones electronics has to be up to snuff. As friend of mine with the same opinions, calls this luster.
One thing that I've concluded is that even the best tubes smear the sound and lack the detail in recordings. This is after many years of mainly tube electronics.
With regards to thick carpeting, I would suspect that the Star Sound Apprentices would be your salvation. A thick piece of granite on the carpet and then the Ultras might help also.
StillPoints strongly discourages having the Ultras tightly screwed against the speakers. With my BMC Arcadias, I tried to thread the screws in just enough to have an 1/8 inch separation, but when we raised the speakers into position, there was no separation. Later I found that the thread inserts in the speakers could be forced deeper into the speakers when the weight of the speakers was applied. This is probably why I found the Star Sound Apprentices better. |
Charles1dad, I would never disagree with what you say here. I should note that I had SETs using 45s, single plate 6A3s, 300Bs, and 845s. I even had Western 91Bs using we300bs from the 1950s. I still remember always fighting for more wattage and the search for good efficient speakers. |
Theaudiotweak, right you are. I this hint from Miguel Alvarez of Tripoint. It works, but I was warned not to try this on Audio Points. |
Glory, Speaking of empty words and thoughts. I, of course, deliberately misrepresented your worthless post. |
You guys should look into Urushi caps. |
Roxy54, well put. I use both. |
Not long ago a friend was in town and we were listening to music. He noticed many isolation devices sitting on my bench and asked how many isolation devices have you tried. We started getting them out. If I recall correctly, we had 24 on the floor or that I recalled and later sold.
I also remember first putting the StillPoints Ultra SSs under my Tidal speakers. My first thought was that they made everything else obsolete. Later I had to confess that they weren't the best when I replaced them with the Ultra Fives. The realism of the soundstage they gave was just outstanding.
Later yet the Star Sound Apprentices under my BMC Arcadias were clearly more dynamic and had a sweeter top end than had the SP Ultra Fives under the same speakers. But I knew that I had been unable to use the SP Ultra Fives properly under the Arcadia, given the method they provided for attaching feet.
Of course I have not tried every isolation device, but I think these are at least among the best. And I think each has its strengths. The Stillpoints give one the perspective of being in the audience and the Star Sound Apprentices give one the perspective of where the microphones are placed. In short it depends on ones tastes. One thing is certain, the Star Sound Apprentices are cheaper than the StillPoints Ultra Fives. The SP Ultra Minis, are much closer in price. |
Audiolabyrinth, since I have 1.5" Audio Points, I can and did just put the Ultra 5 between the platform and the amps. This was not any good. |
Audiolabyrinth, I agree with Charles1dad, the SPs focus is on stopping vertical vibration either from below or above their technology while SS focus on getting the vibrations to the Earth and out of components. The materials in the SPs are ceramic balls, which might well be slow. I really did not know what to expect but I was not surprised.
What did surprise me, however, is that the perspective that one has of the recording is quite different. SPs give you a sense of the recording venue with depth and precise location. SSs give you instant sense of the leading edge and the decay of notes. Instruments sound quite real and quick. Which would we hear had we been there is the question or would we hear both? I have been at jazz band performances and can say the SSs are what I heard when I was at the location of the microphones, and SPs are what I heard when I was in the audience. I guess that I want both or would want one focus sometimes and the other at other times. I naively thought that perhaps combining both would give me both; not so. |
Pkoegz, whoever the guy is that you quote, he is clueless about resonance. Everything has one, and does dampen down to that point and then get wild through the point of resonance. So you can choose your poison. |
Pkoegz, I think it is you who are buying into bull although I agree with you about StillPoints. The main purpose of points is increasing the foot pounds per square inch. Mass is hard to accelerate with vibrations. But the real issue is that everything has a resonant frequency. He discusses the benefits of rubber feet and says nothing about how awful rubber makes the speakers sound.
Stillpoints innovation is to convert vertical motion into horizon motion and then to heat. That is good science if vertical motion is the vibration we need to avoid. Star Sound's focus is to get the vibrations in components to ground quickly. They also focus on good science of the speed of sound through metals. Your guy focuses on spikes on runners shoes which are to improve friction or traction on surfaces. Yes, your speakers on spikes will not slide easily.
Your not funny at all. Enjoy your music. |
Agear, generally when you hear people claiming to be scientists they really are engineers, who think we know everything about how nature works. I once was majoring in EE, when the discussion of Ohm's law came up. I was an undergraduate assistant in physics lab and said that I had noticed a normal distribution in student results in measuring current flow in various circuits. The professor said that the students measurement were just not accurate enough, but my physics professor said that there were other factors that we had yet to account for.
I must admit that I just dismiss those who make claims that engineers know all there is to know. I fully expect that individual tastes in music reproduction leads them to different buying decisions. |
Larryi, in principle I agree with you but I only one time found a device where the Stillpoints don't improve the performance of a component. It was on a HB Cable Designs Acrylic PowerSlave. I used them on three turntables, five amps, four preamps, and four dacs or universal players. My experience with the Star Sound Tech. Apprentics, completely different concept devices, is limited to one pair of speakers, two amps, three preamps, and a pair of external crossovers. I have heard no instance where they didn't greatly improve the sound. They have a different sound than the Stillpoints, however.
I have piles of other platforms and feet around, that were each somewhat different, but could not compete with either the Stillpoints or the Star Sound Apprentics. |
Melbguy1, with the Ultra bases you will not be using the Ultra 5s in the recommended way. I have no idea what threaded options there are under the Magico S5s but if you could use them to mount the Ultra 5s so that there is some minimal distance between the bottom of the speaker and the bottom of the Ultra 5s, you could adjust the angle of the speaker, mount them properly, make the speakers more secure, and save the money for the bases.
I have a pair of LSA1 monitors with no threaded holes on their bottom for which I have to use the Ultra SS wrong and dearly wish I could use them the other way. |
Melbguy1, I got my information directly from Paul Wakeen owner of Stillpoints but it was before there were the Ultra bases. I was doing a review of them, I did a comparison one time of Ultra SSs as they do allow some height adjustment. They definitely sounded better with the taper toward speakers as the technology is at the hard hat (tapered) end.
Since three points define a plain, anytime you use four, one will typically not in contact, so you would need some method to get contact. Incidentally, in my experience, four Ultra on everything are much better than three. And this is not subtle. |
Agear, I guess I've heard about your room from Star Sound. Apparently there will be others soon and I think I will get to hear them. Thus far I have never liked room treatments, although at first I can hear their impact. At some point, I hear their wrong sound and enjoy removing them.
I look forward to reading your description of the techniques and their impact. |
Audiolabyrinth, I ask Star Sound about polishing brass feet and was offer to have them polished by Star Sound. I asked whether that was done to the Audio Points and was told yes. They would say nothing more than to say I should not polish them at all, nor to paint them. I must say that I received cotton gloves to use in installing them.
Finally, I recently discovered that the feet I used under my Tidal speakers were Star Sound Audio Points and they have gotten dull and I wonder about polishing them to be bright again. |
