Ask Robert about the threaded inserts. That will add further stability |
Seems logical to assume that the makers of megabuck speakers would use superior footers in their designs. One would assume so, but sadly its not always the case. Footers, or rather mechanical grounding technologies, seems to often be last on the list for speaker manufacturers regardless of price point. How many times have you seen cheap steel spikes on a 40K pair of speakers? Or an MDF box with rudimentary rod bracing and dynamat type internal sheeting? I personally believe mechanical grounding or isolation or whatever you want to call it is foundational and can transform a speaker far more than driver or cap selection. Everyone fixates on that, but it should be secondary. I have owned Dale Pitchers speakers (Intuitive Design) on and off since 2006. He is on the lunatic fringe in this area and has incorporated mechanical grounding elements in his speakers for over 25 years. He has used Stillpoints until fairly recently. I have done a lot of experiments with them, and they are efficacious. In some of my applications, they did seem to inject a little midrange glare (and you can argue that is a byproduct of the equipment design and not the points...who knows). I personally prefer the Sistrum products under my equipment (Sp101s) and speakers (Apprentice). In my opinion, the more resonance potential in an audio device, the more efficacious or impactful they are (subs>speakers>amps, etc). Sistrum, like Dale, has been at this for a while, and mechanical grounding is their core business. Teajay, we look forward to your review. I had not heard of the Krolo stuff before. I scanned his website, and it looks like he is an interior designer by day? He seems to use an amalgam of materials in his designs, including wood, aluminum, etc. Very aesthetically pleasing for sure, but I could not drudge up design particulars, engineering elements, etc. I assume you have access to that info? Psag, this a thoughtful thread. Being a thoughtful guy, you owe it to yourself to fiddle in this area. Forget about price and just try it. |
Wrm, your assessments are spot on. It still remains a chicken and egg scenario though, and that's why people should always experiment first.
Granny, you need to call Robert. The apprentice has a lower center of gravity and they now offer the threaded inserts. It will not be a problem although its a two man job.
Of course, you could always settle for less.....but what red blooded audiophile would!
The whole debate regarding mechanical grounding or isolation is interesting. Th ave audiophile brain still seems to be stuck in the 50s where speakers and equipment gets plonked on the carpet and/or ornamental wooden rack. I have read relatively recent reviews in magazines where equipment was stuck on a chair or on the ground in a poorly laid out room.
John Atkinson alluded to the history of vibration management in speakers here: http://www.stereophile.com/features/806 |
Psag, logically speaking, it does not make sense to pay money for a footer that is mid bass shy and then rely on EQ to correct it. Find the right footer or platform. |
I have sought Sistrum stands and their new BackStage stands to no avail. Tbg, I believe the Sistrum backstage will be reviewed by Clement Perry...at least that's what I was told. You could always talk to Robert about purchasing a pair if you so desire when they are formally in production. |
|
Or is this just an academic exercise? |
Congrats to Granny and Tbg. I had Apprentice stands under $75 Pioneer speakers I bought on Craigslist as surrogates until I got my speakers from Dale Pitcher. It was nothing short of astounding. I had a golden eared friend over and he stated that he has heard a lot of speakers in the 10-15K range that did not sound as good as these humble, vintage, Vietnam era speakers! Bravo Starsound.
Psag, what say ye? |
Thankyou everyone,thankyou for your hospitality as well, what do you use under the 103's?, plywood, footer disc?, why does star sound have the same size measurements for all the stands?, do you believe a 103 can support a 180 pound amp?, and still sound the way it was designed to?, or do you believe the 103 is best suited for speakers for best sound improvement? I use their brass discs to avoid damaging the cork flooring in my listening room. That being said, it is more ideal to spike your carpet and/or floor for room coupling. Those stands can support anything you can possibly throw at them and still operate at optimal capacity whether it be speakers or a dac. I find their effects more pronounced the more vibration you have at work (room>subs>speakers>tube amps>pre-amp>dac). |
Bill, the SS stands take a couple of days to relax. They always sound a little edgy and forward at first blush.... |
Bill, I did a similar comparison with the original Stillpoints and the apprentice stands under Intuitive Design Gamma Summits, and I my findings mirror yours. Better bass, focus, and ambient energy but maintaining an organic signature. The Stillpoints also had some midrange fizz or something that I did not completely care for. Hard to pin down.... |
what is the presatation like?, Is it roll A, D, G, J???? This can vary with room geometry and speakers, but generally I have found the SS stands to have a much more "live" sound (aka ambient energy). In my current room, it is definitely more of a front row presentation (not mid or back hall). The musicians are right "there"....just like the real thing. |
I look forward to Agear's inevitable purchase of the Backstage platforms and how they improve upon the Apprentice's high standards that we've established here. Agear don't keep us waiting too long. and Agear,
Your SOTA mechanically grounded listening room demands that the Backstage find a permanent home there. Lord have mercy. Well, if you really want to push towards the lunatic fringe as I am prone to, the Starsound Stage platforms are the obvious answer. They are an ALL BRASS version of the backstage. Due to inflationary pressure on raw materials such as brass, they will be $$$$. My wife would truly be filled with homicidal rage at that juncture. I can hear her now: "Brass stands? Really?" Well, I am glad for Robert, Tom and the Starsound collective for the resurrection of their company and technology. The Apprentice stands are a very modest investment for the performance you get. The audio press is finally starting to take notice: http://www.stereotimes.com/post/sistrum-apprentice-series-spsa103-platform/ |
07-13-14: Bo1972
The Sistrum SP-1 is ugly as hell, it even hurts to my eyes!!
Compared to what? If IKEA particle board shelving is your idea of beauty, I guess I could understand that bias better. Sistrum shelving does not blend seamlessly into a standard living room nor is it meant to. It is designed for performance just like your speakers or any other piece of gear. Aesthetics is part of my day job, and I don't find the Starsound stuff ugly. |
Audiophiles are goofy creatures. Whine about the eternal struggle for good sound and yet pull up short in the name of aesthetics??? A little schizophrenic if you ask me. Again, the brass cones are essentially invisible from a conversational distance. This hand wringing is purely academic. I own the magico Q5's. I contacted magico and asked about the spikes and spike plates. I wanted larger ones to protect my floors. They advised me that the spikes that come with the speakers are designed for the speakers and other spikes may adversely effect the sound of the speakers Did they provide an engineering basis for this? A lot of speaker manufacturers get pissy and territorial when it comes to this subject.... |
Bol1972, are you related to Peter from Phasure? Your swirling verbiage reminds me of him. |
The gold colour makes it look cheap and F...ugly. I don't understand why they didn't use a silver look. The choice of brass is purely a matter of material science. Furthermore, the fabrication and material cost is significantly higher than Stillpoints. They are substantial pieces. I am glad you like your Stillpoints. i have owned both and at this juncture prefer SS. |
07-15-14: Petieboy12003
"Bol1972, are you related to Peter from Phasure? Your swirling verbiage reminds me of him. "
But but Peter really knows what he is talking about!
This is almost a huge compliment Yes indeed. Peter is a genius who comes across as a verbal Tasmanian devil to uninformed dolts like moi.... |
07-15-14: Bo1972
Who the F...is Peter? I hate to admit it, but that made me laugh. Peter is the Dutch madman behind this: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?board=9.0 He has designed what many consider to be the best media player/dac in the world. You need to F.... hear one. |
Thanks are due Charles1dad, Grannyring, Agear, Tbg, Glory and everyone else who has weighed in on this technology with their personal experience. Your findings have given me confidence that it does something quite noticeable and beneficial. My system does not lack dynamics or speed, but I am curious to hear what these products add to these qualities. Congrats and enjoy. |
The Sistrum stands greatly interest me for electronics but I'm concerned of my products sitting on sharp tips that will indent or scratch up the bottom of the product. Is there a solution to this? They make protective disks that work very nicely to protect your Gucci electronics |
{quote]Seems logical to assume that the makers of megabuck speakers would use superior footers in their designs. Any experience out there with Stillpoints isolation devices to support the reference-level offerings from Magico, TAD, Rockport, Tidal, and others?
Psag (Threads | Answers | This Thread)[/quote]
Where the F--- is Psag? He started this thread.... |
07-19-14: Psag
Agear, I kind of lost interest when Bo1972 hijacked the thread with his usual nonsense. I tried the Ultra 5's under my TAD Reference Ones with questionable benefit. Some increase in resolution, at the expense of tonality. I couldn't justify the price of six Ultra 5's. Hi Psag. I have others who feel the same way about the latest iteration from Stillpoints. In fact, one speaker manufacturer preferred the older generation of Stillpoints versus the new. The Ultra provided an excess of micro-detail with altered tonality. That being said, the speaker was designed around the original still points. There is something to be said for "voicing" equipment during the development phase. Adding whizbang grounding technology after the fact is not always a panacea. It can reveal or accentuate deficiencies. I have noticed the same thing with electronics. Thanks for the update and provide us with a little more detail..... |
07-20-14: Psag
In other words, there was an apparent increase in clarity, at the expense of warmth and fullness. More analytical, less musical. This could be an advantage for some speakers, but not for the TADs in my system. ditto. One sonic element or offshoot of this is a cohesive fluidity. |
P59teitel, that's outstanding. Enjoy. |
The idea of comparing Stillpoints to audio points I find ludicrous. The primary comparison is with the SS stands . There is no shortage of engineering prowess that goes into the SS product, and thus your rant, which reads a little like ad copy, is not altogether accurate. |
That article reads like something written in the early 80s even though it was written in 2007. That being said, it would be interesting to do a simple study with an accelerometer and different grounding technologies on a speaker.... |
Glory I have had many different footers on many high end speaker systems. The magico q5's come with extremely well made and no doubt expensive spikes. If you think brass is the answer by all means enjoy. I have had spikes on tt's, on all types of stands, etc., don't like them. Don't believe in their "science". Here's an article that makes my point. Think as you wish, I prefer real science, engineering and independent thought. Which footers have you tried? The Magico footers are aluminum no doubt. I am a man of "science" as well. One of the central elements to any science is experimentation. You should try the Starsound products (stands not the footers) and report back. It is a company with a team of engineers involved. No soggy pseudo-science. BTW, the SS products do not work by "isolation." Your panties are bunched up in part due to semantics.... |
The goal of the article was to explain to non-experts that spikes do not isolate (as it is often believed or claimed) but increase the coupling e.g. between speakers and floor. Nvp, the goal of the article and its unfortunate resurrection seemed to be to cast a jaundiced eye on their use in the context of a thread celebrating such a technology. Since you're a physicist, please explain how they might be beneficial, and you're not allowed to use that lame analogy of shoe and cleat. Here is one explanation from Starsound technology by way of the department of engineering at Stanford: http://starsoundaudio.com/CMS/uploads/vibration-and-coulomb-friction-2013_001.pdf Here is a snippet from Robert of SS: Link to Coulomb Friction on website:
http://starsoundaudio.com/liveVibeDetails2.php?Vibration-and-Coulomb-Friction-5
Conclusion and Application
Essentially, Coulomb friction (or forced-damped vibration) is not considered to be acknowledged here unless it is a repeated resonance or of an oscillatory pattern. The above text is taken with a simplistic approach considering a singular part of a signal.
In the terms of music or other complex signals such as keyboard synthesizers, strings, drums, etc., many of the stated parameters are required to be addressed to each part of the signal simultaneously. This creates very complex harmonics which can carry out to several or multiple levels of harmonics, noting that there will be a reduction in amplitude over time.
Simply stated, if the vibration is not directed away from the source, it will modulate the source causing the original signal to appear distorted, thus defining the requirement for continuous dissipation of vibration.
In a practical application scenario, you have multiple electronic components and loudspeakers connected through a series of conduits (defined as instruments), all of which interact with each other producing sound and picture. We describe this union as a system.
The system generates and conducts various forms of resonance, including mechanical, electrical, and airborne. Refer to The Proving Grounds for more details on these basic principles online at http://starsoundaudio.com/liveVibeDetails2.php?THE-PROVING-GROUNDS-3
This form of resonant energy is indirectly reintroduced to the system and will cause interference with the signal pathway (being that of the whole) at one or more points in the audio/visual reproduction process. If not addressed, these resonance patterns will propagate forming inefficiencies thus limiting the products function and affecting the overall sound and/or visual quality.
Employing isolation techniques, one merely protects one component from interfering with another that it is in direct contact with. Isolation increases the effects of Coulomb friction by building resistance between the mating surfaces. With regards to airborne resonance, isolation principles serve much like the dielectric material in a capacitance device, essentially turning the component into a giant Resonance Capacitor.
This is not the opinion of our company, Star Sound Technologies, LLC but rather that of the average graduate - level physics textbook.
Minimizing the resistance (as caused by Coulomb friction) via a mechanical grounding process is the only logical way to compensate for the effects of Mechanical, Electrical and Airborne resonance within any given system.
Again, if detrimental vibration is not directed away from a component, loudspeaker or cable conduit, it will modulate and re-modulate the original signal causing degradation of said signal. This defines the requirement for continuous dissipation (not isolation) of the unwanted vibration.
©2002 Star Sound Technologies, LLC Page 6 of 6
|
(These devices are unable to get rid of the real elephant on ones room, i.e. excited room modes - the most critical type of rezonance in one's system. Consequently, I am of the opinion that one should take care of those type or resonances first before starting to debate the benefits and superiority of various fine tuning devices.) That's a fairly profound and perceptive statement. That is the reason why I worked with SS technology on designing a room with mechanically grounding in mind so as to "manage" room energies. The walls were treated with their proprietary technology and not viscoelastics from the 80s....:/ More information will be available with a formal system thread of mine and a subsequent review in the not too distant future.... |
08-06-14: Tbg
Agear, I guess I've heard about your room from Star Sound. Apparently there will be others soon and I think I will get to hear them. Thus far I have never liked room treatments, although at first I can hear their impact. At some point, I hear their wrong sound and enjoy removing them.
I look forward to reading your description of the techniques and their impact. I share those sentiments and thus the absence of "treatments" in my room. All the operative elements in my "energy room" are internal. IMO, standard paradigms of room treatment tend to be parasitic of ambient energy and thus lack the plausibility of a good auditory illusion. SS shared this sentiment and thus the reason we danced the dance with this crazy prototype of a room. It all started as idle daydreaming and chatter between Robert and myself over three years ago. I had audiophile friends telling me it was a crazy and expensive experiment. Indeed, but my intuition was correct and it worked. |
Would you recommend only putting components on cushions? That might be taken as nonsense by some. Ha! Cloud 9 cushions are the brand to look for.... |
The problem with most spikes is that they allow vibrations to go in both directions. That is, not only from the speakers into the floor but also from the floor into the speakers. This effect is not desirable. The easiest way to test that hypothesis would be to do what John Atkinson at Stereophile did many moons ago. Attach an accelerometer to the speaker cabinet and see what happens with and without your grounding device of choice. |
How many people here have an accelerometer Agear? Not exactly an exotic device (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1-1001220-0/MSP1001-ND/279641). DIY speakers boys often use them Like Dr. Lesurf, I have merely tried to provide logical arguments that show why some reviewers, manufacturer, sale persons and audiogoners make silly claims when the say that spikes actually isolate. No one on this thread is making that claim. This is merely a game of semantics, and yes the term is often misused in audio. I cannot deny that... |
Bo did made me laugh despite his uncouth language.... |
