Starting over with vinyl

I think you should get an entry level Project or Rega including the cartridge.

That is what I would do if I were in your place

The Rega RP-1 seems good. Which of the Pro-jects would you consider?

kythyn wrote:

The Rega RP-1 seems good. Which of the Pro-jects would you consider?

The Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC in the color of your choice for a mere $399, no question. Comes with a premounted/aligned Ortofon 2M Red, one of the best $99 cartridges out there.

100 CDs isn't investment enough to stick with CD playback. I listened to digital exclusively for 20 years (1987-2007), then took my best SACD and matching LP to my local high end store, played them back-to-back on a Linn system, and that was that. (LPs won, no contest.) For the next 6 months I listened exclusively to LPs, and now, 9 years later I have around 1500 LPs.

Why not both! you already have a cd player.

johnnyb53 - thanks for sharing an actual personal experience. There is a Debut Carbon on sale here for $299 and it is in Florida north of where I am. Seems like a no-brainer?  There are two Pro-ject RM 1.3s with Sumiko Pearls available at $425 from the same store.  Are these worth the additional cost in your opinion?

raymonda - It really is a question of where to spend the future dollars - cd or vinyl? I wonder if the more limited selection of vinyl will keep me from going broke as quickly?

On another note, I could put the turntable budget towards either the bass panel for the Maggies, or a different sub or a set of .7s. The upgrade bug has already bitten me and I haven’t had the MMGs a week yet!

I prefer analog but that said vinyl is not cheap and at 20 to 40 bucks an album can be considered expensive. 2.00 albums are no longer and those at that price are chewed up.

CDS on the other hand are out of style and cheap. 1 to 2 dollars is the going rate you can get a whole lot at that price. 

Another alater native is to buy an OPPO 103 and a 1TB hard drive. buy CDS and then down load high res files or visit Archive.org and enjoy and endless source of live concerts.

Meanwhile save up for a decent table and cartridge. buy used and get the best bang for your dollar and wait till you have about 1500. that will get you to the show.

Are the recordings you listen to digital or analog? For me, older music recorded on analog equipment, with nothing digital in the chain, like remastering, is the best sounding vinyl. Once digital is in the chain, like the recording, remaster or both, vinyl just sounds like better digital at that point. So, if I can get an album done in full analog, I buy it on record. If there's any digital in the chain, I buy it on whatever the best digital format is offered. 

I used to think I was the only one doing it this way, but in the last couple of years, I see more and more people selecting records the same way I do.

My primary source to date has been CD.  How can I tell if vinyl is true analog?

I am with raymonda's last post. I believe you should stick with digital at your current budget. These days it is less expensive to purchase a quality digital front end than an equivalent vinyl one. Put your money into the .7 upgrade, possibly a DAC and use your CD player as a transport, and more music.  

When I upgraded my system after several years I thought I would build on vinyl as I had both analog and digital sources. Well, I now rarely use my TT, and find the find that redbook CDs can be made to sound great with latest digital processing.   

" My primary source to date has been CD.  How can I tell if vinyl is true analog?"

Age. I don't think any modern recordings are analog, high end or otherwise. Just about everything before the mid 80's is analog. Look at your CD's. If you see AAD printed somewhere, thats an analog recording and you should be able to find it on record. 

If you go vinyl, I would recommend a vintage Japanese table from the golden era. Late 1970’s. I got a refurbished one with burl magnolia veneer to match the speakers. It is manual (not much to go wrong), sounds great and looks good too. For as little as $500...

I just don’t like the modern plastic lightweight tables that became popular starting in the 80’s - they seem cheap to me and look cheap. I wanted heavy wood plinth or gargantuan lumps of steel! But I didn’t want to spend $10000 on playing old Japanese vinyl (as good as it is - the media and what is available is rarely pristine)

Vinyl is a slippery slope - I know , as I am currently careening down it at somewhat out of control speeds.  I have both digital and analog going now and still buy both formats.  I love my vinyl obsession, but it is much more expensive than digital as it is easy to get seduced into upgradeitis.

When I started buying vinyl, I was very wary of used and only bought new - mostly reissues.  With a lot of research online, I was able to identify the best quality recordings (thanks Steve Hoffman forums) and the best prices.  Nonetheless, I have bought almost 600 albums in the past year at a cost of over $8 grand.  Probably 10% of these were used. 

In the case of used, I found that there were a few shops in my area that were good places to find clean copies at fair prices, but these still cost $6-$12 depending on condition, vs $12-$18 for new on sale. ( I have spent as much as $40 for a single new album - but these are the "audiophile" editions that guys like Michael Fremer rave about). Occasionally I have come across great buys in the $2-$3 range, but it is very dependent on the music you are looking for.  FWIW - my entire collection is almost entirely comprised of albums originally recorded before 1980 (pre digital), or some recent albums that are largely or completely analogue recording / mastering (i.e Vanessa Fernandez - thanks Mr. Fremer).

 During that time I also bought CD's, including several SACD's, and typically spend $4-$6 each (SACD's $10-$15).  I am careful to read up on the mastering quality of these as many are not well done.  I have over 500 CD's, mostly purchased in the 80's and 90's, and many are unlistenable on my system - overly loud and shrill compared to my recent purchases.

Bottom line - my experience has led me to conclude that, to put together a good vinyl system ( TT, cartridge preamp) and a decent album collection is at least a $1,500-$2,000 investment, and can quickly grow from there. 

If I were on a tight budget, I would probably stick with a laptop as a source and a good DAC. There are plenty of online sources for lossless or hi res files cheap or free.

Again, thanks to all of you for the continued education.

raymonda - what are reliable sources for low cost cds (I assume used)

mesch - the Onix XCD-88 has a Burr-Brown 1732 24-bit/96kHz DAC, which I thought was decent. Which external DACs would you recommend for ripped CDs, downloads or streams?

sjtm - thanks for sharing your experience. What are reliable sources for low-cost high-quality CDs? Which online sources do you suggest for lossless or high res files? I appreciate what you said about unlistenable CDs as I have many in my small collection. As I type this I am listening to Santana’s Greatest Hits and the music is firmly wedged in the speakers

After digesting all that has been written here, I am inclined to remove my preamp and put in a passive to resolve gain problems, upgrade the MMGs to .7s or get Mye stands for the MMGs, remove the Denon and rely on the Onix as one primary source, with computer-based digital being the other.

I'm just curious, but did you get the whole Onix package with the amp and speakers? I've never had the chance to hear one of those systems. It looks like a really good deal. 

mb1audio -

No, I didn't get the whole system as I had the same Adcom gear and 3.6s back then.

Kythryn, After reading this and your other threads:

1) I think that trying the SYS to solve your gain issue is a good purchase. I own one in a second system and believe it to be a good replacement for the Adcom pre. If you find that to be true the pre could be sold to fund a stand alone FM tuner if you wish to keep one as a source (quality ones can be found inexpensively).

2) I believe your focus on digital is a good idea for now. Put together a system that satisfies prior to considering vinyl as an additional source.

3) My thinking on a DAC would be that it can serve to upgrade your CD player which can remain in use as a transport and also serve for computer audio. Your CD player must have digital output and the DAC must have both a USB  and SPDIF input (one that matches the CD player). Your CD player and computer would be connected to the DAC which is in turn connected to the SYS. Thus leaving the other SYS input for an additional source ( FM tuner or phonostage).

4) I believe if I had the money to upgrade from the MMGs to the .7s I would. Though since the MMGs are so new you might sort out your other issues 1st and get to know them better. Handle them with care and they will hold value. 

Good luck in this endeavor.

I forgot to ask, what is your budget for a DAC?

DAC, wireless connection, music server (as I begin to understand the pieces it takes) $500 - 700, which seems slim for the DAC alone

kythyn,

I suggest you not be in too much of a hurry. You have many decisions to make, and lots of suggestions in various directions, plus the urge to try to save money by getting used equipment. For example:

There is a Debut Carbon on sale here for $299 and it is in Florida north of where I am. Seems like a no-brainer? There are two Pro-ject RM 1.3s with Sumiko Pearls available at $425 from the same store. Are these worth the additional cost in your opinion?

Notice you say Debut Carbon? If it’s not a Debut Carbon DC, then it’s the older model. The newer DC model has a voltage regulator that provides more accurate speed control, which I think is well worth the money. The regular Debut Carbon was discontinued around 2-1/2 years ago.

Ditto for the RM 1.3. The successor is the RPM 1 Carbon that goes for $499. The Carbon indicates that it has their newer carbon fiber tonearm; I consider that tonearm easily worth the extra $25. Both the older model and the Carbon version come with the Sumiko Pearl, which is the other highly regarded $99 cartridge. I haven’t heard it, but I heard the Ortofon 2M Red on a Debut Carbon and was very impressed.

Another consideration: a pair of Mye Stands is close to $600, which gets you within sniffing distance of the Magnepan DWM bass panel ($800). IMO you would get more benefit from DWM’s bass extension, and you can get a noticeable improvement in clarity and detail by putting weights on the MMG’s feet instead of the expense of Mye Stands.

Disclaimer: I haven’t heard a Magnepan with Mye Stands, but I *have* heard the DWM panel with the mini-Maggie panels. I also put some encyclopedia volumes on the feet of my Magneplanar 1.7s and noticed a significant improvement in imaging, clarity, more organic presentation, etc. For cosmetic purposes I swapped out the encyclopedia volumes for a set of these tripod sandbags. These made the Maggies sound even better. So for about $33 in decorator sandbags and $5-10 in sand, you can obtai much of the benefit of the Mye Stands and have a $550 head start on the DWM bass panel.

There are many possibilities in electronics, but the NAD BEE series of integrated amps work well, particularly with Magnepans. The high end store where I bought my Maggie 1.7s used the NAD C 375BEE to demonstrate the 1.7s and they sounded wonderful with great dynamics, clarity, musicality, and detail. The little brother C 356BEE should be a good match as well if 80 wpc will be enough for your listening area.

I also strongly recommend Tidal lossless streaming. Save a lot of time looking for CD. At home, I use Oppo 105 32bit DAC for decoding Tidal 16bit stream. Super quiet background and good dynamic. On the road, I am using mobile device with USB 24bit DAC.