spend on the streamer or on the DAC ?

agree the Wyred 4 Sound Sonos is a huge improvement over the standard Sonos...currently using mine into the Marantz Ruby K1 DAC section...sounds great 

In my personal experience, if the streamer doesn't apply badly implemented sample rate conversion or otherwise messes up the signal (even cheap solutions like chromecast audio are in this category, the chromecast hdmi and most android based solutions are not), then the spdif signal from the streamer only requires jitter to be reduced before reaching the dac, since most dacs are very sensitive to incoming jitter regardless of marketing bs or technical descriptions of nice concepts that are not properly implemented to be effective at the low levels advertized which requires not only clocks but also ps and routing. Most dacs starting at a few hundred dollars can sound great if incoming jitter is under control. Often the simpler the better, ideally without incoming signal treatment like src.
Before changing the streamer or the dac, my advice would be to test a jitter reducing device between them with as good as possible digital cable before the dac, so that the best of what the existing units can do can be assessed. I tried several  solutions over the last decade and only 2 really stand out: SynchroMesh asrc reclocker for SPDIF from Empirical Audio with reference coax cable and AFI USB synchronous reclocker from Acousence. 2 totally different technical solutions but both exceptionnally well implemented and effective. My bet is you will not believe what your existing setup can actually deliver. Try to get a money back guarantee or a possibility to audition, as usual, since the rest of the playback chain must be up to the task as well... especially the speakers and their interaction with the room.All the best in your audio journey, Patrick

I have the Schitt Yggrasil and a PS Audio Direct Stream w/ bridge 2 in two different systems. They are both excellent DAC’s.  I slightly prefer the PS Direct Stream DAC, but that may just be the system, with my ears and preferences.  When I listen to the Yiggrasil, I don’t miss anything or wish it was something else - it’s that good. 
You could probably get a gently used PS DS for $3,500 to $4,000. 
The guys and gals at PS Audio and Schitt are very good people to work with. 
Some of the other DAC’s recommended here are also solid choices too. Good luck in your search. 

Given your budget +1 Lumin streamer/DAC (and add Sbooster) Check them out +1 on the PS Direct Stream DAC.

Maybe Mytek Brooklyn Bridge Streaming DAC too.

A few weeks ago I upgraded my Sonos streamer to a Auralic Aries G2, there is no comparison in sound quality. (Auralic Vega dac with Tidal, Roon).

@joeeuro

not at all a surprise

stock sonos streamer is a jittery source... needs reclocking

hence the w4s or other mod or appendage which solidifies the clock timing of the digital out

with this, i don't think you will hear any meaningful difference to other dedicated streamers

DAC - Audio Mirror Tubadour III is good, Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE is better

DAC

Audio Mirror Tubadour III ($1500) is quite good; Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE ($2500) is even better

Thk u all for the useful insights. I am attracted to a single-box solution (streamer/DAC, and I'd like to keep my MOON amp,and MOON seems to make nice DAC/streamers BTW). In this regard there is the issue of obsolescence: where does technology move the fastest, on the streamer side or on the DAC side? This might be an issue if one considers future upgrades. Regards. Olivier

Unless you're the type who likes to keep up with the latest/greatest I wouldn't worry too much about obsolescence. There will certainly be new DAC and streamer iterations from every manufacturer out there. Good sound now will still be good sound when the next version comes out. Seems to me a Moon streaming DAC would be a great choice for you.

@melvinjames 

There will certainly be new DAC and streamer iterations from every manufacturer out there. Good sound now will still be good sound when the next version comes out.

wise words

i am playing a frank van alstine fet valve topp dac from 1998 with philips r2r chip and 12ax7's -- can't read anything but redbook bitrate but the things sounds soooooooo ridiculously good... 

I've across an offer to buy a LINN AKURATE DS for 1800 euro (showroom model). Sounds tempting as the listed price price is 5550 euro new (apprently the shop is discontinuing it's dealer relationship with LINN, for commercial -not quality -reason,s and so are liquidating the stock).Any useful insights ? LINN looks like one of those manufacturers that like to go their own way- I like that on philosophical grounds, but the sonic rewards have to be there!

@lalitk i use a rockna wavedream net se
i love it and am happy to talk about it on another thread if you tag me or you can dm

@olica

unless i am mistaken the linn akurate ds is a 10 year old product

in the digital media/streaming world that is like dinosaurs walking the earth - get something cheaper and newer

only as good as the weak link is the short answer, but I would start at getting the DAC right.  I think they are to the point where you can get a reasonably priced great performer with very good capabilities and not worry about it being outdated for a while now.  my solution recently in that regard was the Denafrips AresII.
Streamers are a bit more complex of an issue as there are two aspects that weigh on the decision and one of those is ever evolving.  First is the overall capabilities and specs of the unit.  There are enough dedicated streamers out there that making sure it's of quality shouldn't be hard.  The 2nd more challenging aspect for me anyway was satisfying the software side of things.  This brand allows this, the brand only does this etc.  The BluOS of the Node is really one of the more versatile platforms and once you use it, it is difficult to go another route.  I ended up going with Roon, but even that doesn't allow me to integrate Spotify or now Amazon HD Music.  I could live without either, but I am so far down the rabbit hole with Spotify, and the family is on the account, I cant just drop it.  I therefore use my Tidal mostly which at the end of the day is perfectly fine.
Initially I used the AresII with the Node2 but I knew I wasn't tapping the Ares full potential having to use Spidif/digital coax to connect them.  For now I just set up a new RaspberryPi4b with an up graded Power Supply running RoPieeeXL as an endpoint for Roon.  This allows me to use USB and get higher res and DSD level streams that the Areas s capable of.
So at the end of the day when I went thru the process it seemed like the software/user interface was a more challenging issue related to the streamer side of it all.  And that aspect seems to be changing weekly too so I wasn't into putting a lot of $ into the streamer at this point when the RPi is really outstanding anyway.

I feel NAD is really missing the boat not taking the BluOS into a dedicated line of streamers.  They would kill it.  But like most larger companies right now, they seem to all be heading toward putting everything into one box.

Hello,
I just hooked up the Wired4Sound reclocker. My Sonos player went from 44.1 to 96k. Thanks jJS49 for the great idea. 

FYI: the Linn Akurate DS and DSM units have been around a while. But the different iterations (0,1,2,3) have seen real updates. The current Akurate 3 with Katalyst technology is excellent. They are expensive. Another option is to buy a used older model and have a Linn dealer provide the Katalyst upgrade which replaces most of the board and the rear panel. Getting the upgrade gives you a new five year warrenty as well.

FYI, the cheaper tier is the Linn Majik line and the top of the line tier is the Klimax line. There is also the more modular line called Selekt.

Linn stuff is well made with one of the lowest repair rates in the industry. It also offers excellent software and a room EQ system called Space Optimization. 

DAC

Dac (no question)

OP: From all the above posts, and is fairly well agreed on by many:
1) The Streamer is not more important than the DAC. It could be just as important in some cases but usually less important.   More often the DAC is more important so focus on that first.
2) Given that you are striving to use high end components, the 'Synergy' of the component chain, input, output connectivity and power handling will often be more important than any of the individual pieces - and if you want to get good value, then finding the right blend often requires a lot of educated guessing, and trial and error.  See if you can buy with a good test and return policy.
Best Regards

They’re both really important.  I recently upgraded from a Mac Mini to a Lumin U1 Mini and the improvement was massive in my system.

That said, I would start with the best DAC you can afford and plan to add a streamer as your next upgrade since you can stream from your MacBook.

yes indeed

going from a jittery noisy everyday computer, not optimized for music streaming, to a dedicated streamer will see a huge improvement in SQ

but going from one decent dedicated music streamer to another, not so much, usually

ymmv as always

I had a Bluesound Node 2 and Schiit Bifrost 2 and was looking to upgrade the DAC and first and the streamer later. But after evaluating different options, I settled on an integrated streaming DAC: Cary Audio DMS-550.  Mainly for the following reasons:

1.   One less set of cables in the signal path and avoid any possible degradation of sound quality.

2.  How to allocate the budget between a streamer and a DAC. Given a budget, a respectable audio company would optimize the sound quality by spending appropriately on both streaming and DAC sections.

I am very happy with the DMS-550 and it would have been difficult for me to match its performance by going the separates route for the same budget.

test

@techno_dude

Well, it looks like you are able to post on this thread....just not the other one?

Techno, is that you buddy? Who or what are you testing? You’re being unusually quiet. Hope you get better.

test 1-2-3 

That’s a good count there Ron. 

I just got an Audioengine-BFi unit, this is quite a recently released product - I was quite amazed at the sound quality. Its comparatively inexpensive, has nice connectivity- (apple airplay-which i love), connects via the wifi network rather than bluetooth, ESS 9023 chip performs DAC functions, along with analog RCA outs it also has a digital optical out for use with an external DAC....this may be a game changer for those seeking to integrate an affordable decent streaming option with their audiophile equipment..having said that I have not compared this with more expensive options discussed above...but when I compared a good streaming source with CD's I was impressed.

Interesting thread.
I just purchased a Vecteur transport and Ares 2 dac for my red book cd habit. Very happy with the result.
I won’t be purchasing a lot of new Cd’s and won’t be adopting DSD. I wish to purchase a streamer that would mate well with my current components which include the Ares 2 dac, a VTL preamp and Sumo Andromeda 3 (250/ch) amp Paradigm Reference Studio 100 V3 speakers. I only have WiFi in my room. No Ethernet hard line.
Since I have the DAC already I would be interested in a DACless streamer if that option would allow me to get a better device at the same price as the DAC included options. After some research it seems to me I am not going to achieve a better streamer without DAC unless I spend a lot of cash on a high end streamer which would be overkill in my system.
So far I see my best option as a Node 2i and feed digital out to the Ares 2.
Any suggestions? I am not crazy about spending over 1K on the streamer and used is always an option.
Thanks

Good grief, 5000 dollars spent for a music "server" is getting close to the peak of audiophool stupidity (dudes who are largely clueless about anything related to pc hardware).

A basicc synology NAS+Seagate Ironwolf NAS drive should run you about 300 bucks. It should sit isolated and serve your music beautifully to multiple systems around the house. You gotta know where to spend your cash.

Depending on how golden your ears are, spend your money on a good standalone R2R DAC (Denafrips Venus, terminator, etc). DS DACs in 2020 peak out on diminishing returns at 1k. If you spent more than 1k on DS DAC offerings, it is cash down the drain.

When tech companies see the audiophool, i bet they laugh all the way to Chinatown. I recently saw a review for a audiophool "network switch" priced at 1000+ dollars. This is outrageous. I understand that not everyone may have advanced degrees/work experience/exposure in certain tech areas. But, I sincerely hope that some of you guys do some research and attempt to educate yourselves better

@deep_333 

laughed out loud reading your post

audiophools are not born, they are made... 

this is the land of $20,000 power cables after all... there was adam, there was then eve, there was then the audiophool

I'm just getting into streaming so after ditching the throw way interconnects and hooking up my Node2i with an Audience Cable, I am quite impressed. My next move will be to have an ethernet cable strung to my listening room and I've ordered some optical cables so I can feed the Bluesound stream into my Gugnier DAC thinking the Gugnier must be better Schiit than the Bluesound DAC, but keeping an open mind and will listen for results. There is only one Coax input on the DAC which is occupied with my CD transport so I am hoping for better results from than I've had in the past with optical cables. I might just be prejudiced but I have the feeling it's going to be a "fail" and I'll be back to using the RCA outs from the Node 2i into my amp. Not been impressed with glass cables in the past. I wish the Gugnier had two COAX inputs. 

There's always MSB for about $20k with power supply. 

There's always MSB for about $20k with power supply. 

I just recently switched from an oppo bdp 103 as a streamer to a Node 2i. Both feeding an Emm Labs dcc2 SE. One thing that is absolutely obvious in my case is how much better both streamers sound when the Emm Labs handles the processing (including clock). Direct from the source the oppo outclasses the node by a good bit. I have found the node significantly lacking as a stand-alone unit. When they both feed the Emm Labs their differences are much less discernible. As transports go they are kind of lateral comparisons. 
From my experience if you get yourself a high performing DAC the quality of the sound will scale with your transport upgrade. This might not be the case the other way around. I think a great transport will be more limited by a bad DAC than a great DAC being limited by a bad transport. 
As far as digital is concerned I am strongly of the opinion that the DAC and clock are the most important factors. 

@deep_333
...LOLOLOLOL...."emperors new clothes" indeed. The Audioengine BFi is pretty neat, and costs less than a couple of benjamins! Folks should try.

@deep_333 How do you get the signal "converted" from your NAS so your DAC can receive and understand it? If the network server is isolated in a different room I believe you shouldn't run a long USB cord or coax so how does the signal get to the DAC? Maybe I've missed something but I can't conceptualize how an NAS to DAC relationship can exist without another piece like a streamer that sits next to the DAC.

I started many moons ago with a Sonos connect. Then I added my first external DAC (Wadia), Big improvement. My neighbor stopped by one day and listen to a piano piece blind test between the Sonos with and without the DAC and he immediately purchased the same DAC, LOL.  The Wadia retail for 4x the Sonos cost. Then I did the W4S mods to the Sonos and got a little more improvement and big improvement on some specific music. Then I added linksys wireless mesh nodes with one of the nodes right at the system and hard wired. Did not really test the SQ but it basically got rid of drops. Then I added a Bryston BDP Pi streamer and got a significant SQ improvement, GF got the Sonos. Then I added a SGC Sonic Transport running a Roon Core and switched the Bryston to a Roon Endpoint. Both Roon and The Bryston have the ability to play Radio Paradise 16/48 FLAC stream. One day I switched back to the Bryston as the streamer and fired up Radio Paradise and it definitely sounded better (alive,improved image), bummer. But streaming Qobuz sounds about the same between the 2. The only knock in the Bryston is the Spartan MM interface. If I was looking at an all-in-one solution I would certainly consider the Bryston BDP 3.14. The BDP Pi is a streamer only but can be had for $1.5k that leave purdy good chunk of $ for a good DAC. I also agree with other posters that the source do make a difference. the 50/50 to 30/70 streamer/DAC $ ratio is on the mark. Note: I found my Bryston Pi used for ~$600.

just to echo the points jbuhl made below

i concur:

-- 20/80 or 30/70 $ proportion streamer vs dac feels about right to me based on my experiences
-- user interface is very important to consider with dedicated streamers, esp if one does not commit to roon (excellent but extra $)
-- sonos with w4s mod is about all the streamer most would need, and interface is simple and always works

Best of both worlds: awesome DAC with an awesome streamer built in!!

Looks like SGC has a Black Friday sale going for this combo. If anyone was considering going ROON this would be a nice streamer (especially with the power supply) but you gotta factor in the cost of ROON. Almost leaves enough room to .......take a Schiit.

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/black-friday-2020/products/premier-server-player-comb...
Note:The i5 will also run open source music servers if you didnt want to pony up for the ROON subscription.

You don’t need Roon to use SGC stuff.

Those power supplies are crap. I know. I had them. 

Hello,
I started with a Sonos connect. I then bought a good DAC. I also bought the W4S reclocker which helped the Sonos a lot. I wish S1 Sonos could do HiRez because I own several pieces.  I just bought a BlueSound Node 2i to get HiRez and replace the Sonos in my main system. If you do not have a HiRez player purchase a BlueSound product. If you do have a HiRez streamer, work to get the best DAC you can afford that matches your system. I believe now in today’s Audiophile world the DAC is the most important piece in your system if your main listening is digital. Plus it can save you a ton of money on cables due to you need a good interconnect from your DAC to preamp. After that you can use “good” cables that don’t cost a fortune. Like basic audio quest and still get incredibly results. Many cd/sacd/DVD players use the same Oppo transport/ disc drawer but what makes it sound so good is the internal/ external DAC. DACs have sound signatures so make sure you test,test,test. R2R does not sound like a chip. Also when you get a few more $k sell your existing DAC and upgrade to a better DAC like going up the Denifrips line because there is a big difference from Denifrips Ares to the Denefrips Terminator. Also, because they don’t last forever and they keep improving. 

So, my Node2 uses BurrBrown PCM5122 DAC. Would i be correct that an outboard dac needs to at least do 24/192 or am i missing something 

@bhvf
I have 3 systems in my house, main room (music+hometheater hybrid setup), music room (dedicated 2 channel music), bed room (dedicated 2 channel music).

Single Synology DS220j NAS (170 bucks)+ Seagate IronWolf NAS Drive 4TB (100 bucks) serves all music files to all 3 rooms. Also serves all my movie blu ray rips to entertainment room.

Main Room: NAS ---> Yamaha WXC-50 streamer transport ---> Musician Pegasus R2R DAC (1100 bucks)
Music Room: NAS ---> Yamaha WXC-50 streamer transport ---> Denafrips Venus R2R DAC (~3000 bucks USD)
Bedroom: NAS ---> Technics ST-C700D (Networkplayer/streamer+DAC)

- The Yamaha WXC-50 streamer transport is a tiny and EXCELLENT streamer transport with excellent/max features that retails for 350 bucks. It can often be purchased on sale for 200 bucks. For a transport only, diminishing returns max out on the Yamaha. Built in DAC on it is no good. Use it as a TRANSPORT ONLY (intended design).
- Musician Pegasus and Denafrips Venus (with slightly different flavors) are the peak of R2R DACs for 99.99% of golden ear bats out there. Diminishing Returns max out after this. Kiss goodbye to all the MSB and Vermeer snakeoil DACs that cost as much as your car. Had them/Sold them.
- The Technics ST-C700D network player/streamerhas a unusallly good DAC implementation, sounds very much like the R2R Dacs i listed. Hence, It nullified the need for a standalone DAC in my bedroom. I am completely jawdropped by the value offered through the trickledown tech in this unit from their reference gear.

@deep_333   
Thanks for your response. I bought one of those for my son a couple years ago and tried to use it including the DAC and it was horrible.  I forgot I can use it as just a streamer out to an external DAC.  I'll have to give that a try. I've decided I'm going to get a Wolf streamer for my main system. This also allows streaming movies or live concerts on YouTube, Livexlive, Stageit, etc. along with hi-res, Roon, Jriver, web-based streaming like Nugs.net or Relisten (for us Jamband addicts).