Here you go... just discussed..
Here you go... just discussed..
I compared anti-cables with Acoustic Zen Satori and Analysis Plus 9.
Satori has much better extension on top with better resolution. Smoother and more refined. Anti-cables may seem clearer (better clarity according to some other users) just because their sound is less saturated with less spatial information.
Midrange - Satori has better detail again, conveys singer's emotions better. Vocals are more sensual.
Overall Satori is more involving, musical and refined. Anti-cables are a little bit more open.
I've asked my friend, an audiophile to comment on the cables without having told him my opinion before without making any suggestions. He only confirmed my "findings".
In conclusion I want to say that ani-cables are excellent cables for the price but definitely not hi-end (I don't like this word) they sound typically hi-fi'sh.
The diffrencies described are obvious and I'm deeply convinced, not system dependent.
The cable may fit better in tube gear as they are on cold side.
Comparisons made in bi-wire configuration. Plinius 9200 + Jmlab Electra 926.
Bradz: I'm not Jkuc, but i have compared cabling that is very similar in nature to Paul's Anti-Cables to AP Oval 9's. All i will say is that having the AP Oval 9's in one of my systems produced some of the worst listening that i've ever had to endure. Using a single driver full range speaker with no crossover parts between the amplifier and the speaker is extremely revealing and i did not like what i heard when i introduced the Oval 9's into the system at all. It was as if you were listening to a pocket transistor radio i.e. no bass and horribly tizzy treble response. Everyone that heard this system said it sounded horrible, but i kept playing it hoping that it would improve with time.
This was long before any of the glowing reviews came out on the AP cables, as i tried them when they were first released. 500+ hours of break-in wasn't enough. Maybe the AP's sound better after you get 1,000,000,000+ hours on them, i don't know. Obviously, i'd take the "Anti-Cables" over the AP's any day of the week : ) Sean
PS... I could never figure out why AP used one type of cable geometry for their silver cabling and a completely different geometry for their copper cabling. That is, if their computer simulations had shown one of these to be "the best" as their advertising states. If it truly were "the best", there would be no need for any other geometries to be used. In effect, their own products refute their marketing campaign aka "snake oil" and "cable hype".
Bradz: I can't give you any type of "set in stone" statements as to what to expect with the "Anti-Cables" because their physical and electrical characteristics are anything but consistent in nature. While they will surely "work" in your system, i can't say that you ( or anyone else ) will "prefer" these to any other cable in their system. Sean
Bradz, you use AP Oval 9 so you know the cable. Some say they are affordable reference. They don't have world class extension on top (highs are sweet) but convey more information than anti-cables. They have better bas with good texture(anti-cables' bass is tight and short, not dfferentiated), wider soundstage but about the same depth (in this respect Satori is better). All in all AP are better cables but your ears will be the final judge.
Many are appealed by "clarity" of anti-cables. They don't convey reverbs, venue athmosphere, spatial cues, they are just clear.
Hope this helps
Experiences obviously differ with these, but in my case the anti-cables did a better job of conveying spatial cues, venue information and instrumental decays. They replaced my Kimber 8tc which are a very decent, well-rounded cable, so for me the anti-cables are a great bargain. The only thing I don't like about them is that they look like coat-hanger wires coming from the back of my speakers.
I have been experimenting with this very thing. I am running the Speltz cables in a biwire configuration (two spades on the amp end/four on the speaker side). Berning amplification, Meadowlark speakers. The cables were constructed by me, using Luminous solid copper spades, compression crimped and soldered. I initially had the conductors spaced horizontally (+ - + -) about an inch or so apart, running through thin pine boards, which acted to both maintain even spacing, and keep the cables several inches off the carpet. Unfortunately, they had the look of high voltage power lines running from the back of my rack, but that's another story. I thought they sounded very nice, perhaps almost TOO nice. A little laid back and polite, they seemed only adequate in dynamics, and were perhaps a bit rolled off on the frequency extremes. Yet, like most solid conductor cables, they perserved the cohesiveness of music that (IMHO) many stranded designs (particularly hybrid copper/silver cables) ignore. Ultimately, I felt my Goertz MI2 cables were better.
Last night, I removed my pine "spacers". I laid the cables flat onto the floor, not paying particular attention to conductor orientation, and placed four small tie-wraps evenly spaced along the length of the cable. The transformation was quite astonishing. Suddenly, the cables lost their politeness, and the perspective shifted as if I had moved from 3/4 of the way back in the concert hall to within the first ten rows of the stage. While some of the smoothness of the cables was certainly lost, the dynamic range suddenly blossomed, and the cables developed what is commonly termed 'slam'; frequency extension issues previously noted disappeared. Is it all good? I don't think so - some of the cable's ability to retrieve low-level information also disappeared, as well as some subtle spatial cues. However, the cables are neither harsh, nor fatiguing, and perserve the essence of what they do right musically speaking.
My thinking now is that there has to be some compromise between the two geometries that will allow for a best of both worlds scenario. My thinking is that the next configuration will have the cables slowly spiralling around a small diameter core of some sort, where conductor separation will be maintained, but where spacing will be minimized (perhaps only a centimeter apart or so). I am also thinking that the cables are somewhat microphonic, and that some amount of damping is necessary. As to the composition of the core material, I am still developing my thoughts on this. I am working on gathering my construction and application photos of all this, and will hopefull post something someday soon if anyone is interested. Regards,
David, The cables are now closely tied, and up on cable risers. I used four tie wraps, tightly cinched, evenly spaced down the eight foot length of the cable - the conductors are so stiff, only a few are needed to keep the cables bundled. I just got home, and will do some more listening tonight to the recent configuration. In the tangential thread, there was a lot of discussion of geometry, and spacing with regard to rising inductance. I simply decided to put into practice what many had suggested, and as I stated in my earlier post, I like some things about the change, and dislike others. What I seek is to balance the properties of both configurations, and that means (I think) realigning the geometry, so that the conductors don't quite touch, but are in close proximity to each other, and have approximately equal spacing down each cable. How I am going to put that into practice will have me walking the aisles of Home Despot searching for a spacing solution. As I thought about this today, my parameters are equal spacing, most likely a circular configuration (think of each conductor wrapped around a round core of something, but evenly spaced), minimal contact with the conductors (the simplicity of the wire is in its basic dielectric and freedom from plastics, sheaths, covers, etc) and low cost. Good listening, -Richard
Now,for a cosmetic question.
Im planning on running my cables along my baseboard,extended out and up 2 or so inches from the baseboard/floor with 'something' I have not decided on yet.
Im wondering if the cables can be lighty painted to match the baseboard.
The red 'covering'on the cables looks like paint,but I really am not sure what it is.
This is how I have the cables spaced about 1.5" and raised above the carpet about 5". They are the myrtlewood bases with electric insulators I used as supports for the previous cables with a dowel to adapt them to hold these separate wires. It's a start.
Palasr: I see that you've taken to using the "chaos theory" form of cable geometry i.e. multiple conductors laying wherever they fall : )
Your plan to spiral wrap the conductors around a vibration absorbing core material with a gap between them is very similar in concept to some interconnects people were discussing quite a while ago. Since consistent spacing would be very difficult to achieve, you would have kind of a cross between what you had before and your current "chaos theory" geometry that you now have. That is, you would have a relatively consistent nominal impedance due to the specified gap that you mentioned yet there would be impedance bumps due to the lack of perfectly consistent winds. Some say that having a consistent impedance is what provides a specific sonic signature ( and it probably does to a certain degree ). They believe that a random impedance is best in order to achieve a lack of a sonic signature, whereas others would say that loading / power transfer / transient characteristics would be random at best. I would be interested to see what you think when all is said and done.
Eagle: Your cables remind me of an elevated model train track hovering in space : )
While i don't know the specifics, the nominal impedance of this type of arrangement would be VERY high i.e. well in excess of 300 ohms. With a less than "robust" amp and a set of speakers that were highly reactive / low impedance, i could see this cable acting as a beneficial buffering device. That is, where the amp might shut down using more conventional cables, it might run fine with this type of arrangement. Obviously in this type of situation, having a system that works is better than a system that doesn't work.
This is kind of what Nelson Pass did when one of his amps kept shutting down trying to drive his old Dayton Wright Electrostat's i.e. used a smaller gauge, higher series resistance cable that presented a higher nominal impedance. Under more normal conditions i.e. an amp that can drive the speakers without much of a fuss, the presentation would be strictly a matter of personal preference.
David: That "red" stuff is the dielectric insulation material, which is some type of enamel base. I don't know how great of an insulator enamel is in terms of chemical penetration into the conductor, so you might want to use an enamel based paint. I'm kinda guessing that this shouldn't create a problem. Sean
Sean, I like your use of chaos theory to describe the geometric orientation of the cables - I'd say that's about right. Mathematically speaking there is some degree of order in all patterns of chaos, and after some extended listening last night, my chaotic cables are beginning to reveal a few more sonic properties to me: the cables now sound as if they are single wires with jumpers, as oppossed to a true biwire configuration. The relative strenghts of biwiring seem to have been ameliorated in favor of a somewhat more confused presentation (not that true biwiring or using jumpers is in itself good or bad, but more a matter of personal preference and system voicing). I will be bringing home a Sencore LC103 capacitance and inductance meter (a nice unit BTW for diagnostic work) and making a few measurements over the weekend. I'm anxious to see if I can correlate what I hear with what is measureable (if at all). And, while the cables now sound more dynamic, I find the loss of delicacy and information to be bothersome the more I listen. I think I have found an adequate spacing method/device, and some experimentation today should yield a definitive answer.
Eagle, I'd be curious to know what you think if you moved your conductors about a centimeter apart. Your setup is essentially what I had (albeit with four conductors) before I started fiddling.
Good listening, -Richard
In order to keep the cables closer, I used clear tubing as a spacer with a short piece of cable wrap to hold it together.
This photo shows the previous setup compared to now. The cables are higher off the carpet as well as closer together. Bass is still tight, vocals and mids are improved with more focus, and highs do sound extended.
Next phase would be to tighten the spacing with smaller tubing and after that spaced twisted pairs. I'm thinking it would be best to buy another set of cables for the twisted pair experiment. What material would be good for spacing the twisted pair and should it be continuous or just tied every foot or so?
I have yet to install my anti-cables.
Just lazy I guess.
When I do,Im going to run them just above my baseboard using 3-4" long hooks screwed into the wall.
Through the hooks, the cables will be surrounded with a short length of clear tubing.
The tubing will have a snug fit in the hooks.
Im going to keep the cables ~1/2" seperated from each other and I will use more short lengths of tubing between the hooks if need be.
This set up will keep the cables seperated,off the floor by ~4" and out ~3-4"
I've read the anti-cables are microphonic,so Im hoping the short sections of tubing will dampen the cables.
On a side note.I dont remember this much attention being paid to a single product in the 7 years I've been lurking here.
I'm looking forward to hearing these cables.I just need to get off my lazy behind and do it.
David: Many think that solid core wire is something new to audio and the net. If you do some research, you'll find that solid core has always had advocates, even when it wasn't popular or thought to be beneficial to work with. Even some people that are now considered by many to be "experts" on the subject of cabling needed some help in this area many years ago.
Please look at the dates in some of these posts and the people posting and responding to these posts. You might recognize some names of others that are currently manufacturing cables, but weren't back then.
My original posts recommending that Jon Risch try listening to / working with some solid cabling were made before AA had an archive. For the record, Thorsten Loesch was also involved in these conversations with Jon. In this post, you'll see where i mention making hints to Jon about the sonic advantages of solid core cabling . Jon also responds in this thread, but in another section. Jon later refuted the part that Thorsten and i played in his R&D, but as you can see in this thread, he had no problems with the comments that i made back then. The fact that i supplied Jon with the connectors that he came to recommend for use in building this cabling is also mentioned i.e. "i just run my mouth and supply the parts".
Please read all of my responses to this thread. To be honest, sometimes solid core designs aren't best and even the manufacturer of the cables don't know their own products very well. This was proven when i ended up having to not only correct mistakes on the Belden website, but also correct flaws in the Belden's responses to Alan.
For those that didn't know, the Alan in that thread is Alan Wright. He's the author of The Supercables Cookbook. After all of that took place, Alan ended up revamping that specific design based upon my corrections and suggestions. He also asked me to design some cabling for him via private email, but i declined. As mentioned in other threads, i'm not part of the audio industry or marketing of products : )
Here's a post where Sean Heisler, the artist that designed the AA logo and artwork, was asking about various cable designs for use with a sub. Jon Risch responds and i add on to Jon's initial response. As per my standard response for a good but low budget speaker cable, i recommended a low inductance solid core design.
Sonic characteristics of decent solid core cabling and why it is finally catching on*.
What to look for in a cable or the "Keep It Simple Stupid" approach to good sonics.
There are hordes of references available in the Agon and AA archives regarding solid core cabling, but as you can see, i've been one of the most vocal proponents of this type of product for many years. As such, i'm pretty familiar with how to get the best performance from it in terms of wire geometries and impedances. This doesn't mean that everyone will like the specific sonics that such a cable will bring with it, but that is a matter of personal preference and how good the rest of the support componentry is. Sean
* As a side note, Mellson, who was involved in this thread, was one of the guys that i had interaction with during the great PS Audio HCA-2 debates over at AA. For sake of clarity, Mellson owned three of these amps. Some will remember that i based my comments on what the amp was capable of / how it would perform / the sonic traits of this amp without ever hearing it. After several months with these amps, Mellson came to agree with the assessments that i had made and sold the amps. Audio Pharoah was another AA Inmate that i did battle with over this subject at the time and he too came to the same conclusions that Mellson did. That is, my "sonic guesstimate" of how these amps would perform ( in stock form ) based on the technical measurements as provided by Stereophile was right on the money.
There was a relatively recent thread on Agon where i did much the same thing i.e. predicted the sonic outcome of a shotgunning some Kimber cabling without ever having tried it myself. I did this by looking at the electrical characteristics of the Kimber as one would use it normally and then what it would do to the circuit if used in shotgun form. Knowing how those electrical characteristics translate into sonics allowed me to post a comment. Another well respected Agon member ( I think it was Pops ) chimed in and said that he had tried that exact configuration with those exact cables and my comments were right on the money.
As i've said before, spec's can tell you quite a bit. That is, if you know how to properly interpret them and they were accurately derived.
Gosh,what did I do? I just want to get the best performance out of these cables.
Am I the only one reading the above posts and other anti-cable threads?? Why buy 'anything'if you arent willing to put in some time to get the most out of a product??
To me,it is very apparent these cables react both positive and negative with different set-ups.
Jeff,go make a cardboadhydrate pizza will ya? :~)
Drubin: solid cables are a drawback when they are used in a situation that requires often movement or increased flexibility. If rigid enough, either due to conductor size and / or geometry, they can transfer energy via microphonics between connected components. In some cases where out of the ordinary dielectrics that lack physical support for the cabling, the cables are more likely to change impedance when moved due to the increased movement of the conductors inside of the dielectric. In most cases, solids are desirable, but i wanted to be fair and point out some of the drawbacks too.
As to breaking in, these cables have an enamel coating on them. Enamel is a lower grade ( higher loss ) dielectric than Teflon is. On top of that, solid conductors can develop fissures, cracks and "density damage" due to stretching / kinking the wire structure itself when initially packaging them or during the initial installation and / or relocation.
As such, this type of cable may require the passage of signal to help them "heal" or form more complete and uniform crystal structures after initial placement. The more signal that you can pass through any cable, the faster the electrical characteristics will tend to stabilize. Personally, i would recommend getting them situated in to position, hooking them up and then throttling them hard for an extended period of time. Put on some rockin' tunes and kick back and enjoy them.
After a rockin' good jam session, you'll have plenty of time to listen for the subtleties the next day or so. This will not only have "exercised" the cables in terms of an electrical work-out, but also allowed them to settle into their physical resting place.
As to how to configure the cables, just leaving the conductors loosely spaced will get you similar performance to the Stealth Fine Ribbons as tested in the Audioholics cable face off #1. This cable was measurably higher in inductance and much poorer in bandwidth than zip cord. While i don't like to use the figures here as i don't really believe them to be all that accurate, the individual conductors of the Stealth when randomly spaced apart had appr 5x the amount of high frequency roll-off that they measured with heavy gauge zip cord. This type of configuration would also raise the nominal impedance quite drastically, reducing power transfer characteristics. On top of that, transient characteristics would also be drastically reduced as compared to a wider bandwidth, lower inductance, lower impedance cable.
Luckily, one can take these individual conductors and configure them in many different geometries. For the most neutral performance in a well-balanced system, the easiest way to do this would be to configure the wires as a spiral twisted pair. The more that the cables spiral around each other, the less inductance you'll have with a wider bandwidth being the result. This also drastically reduces the nominal impedance, which increases power transfer and loading characteristics. The increased bandwidth also results in better transient response and improved treble resolution.
The drawbacks to this type of configuration is that the signal path is slightly longer than if a straight run were used ( you lose a small percentage of wire length due to the twisting ). The conductors are also more stressed due to the bending and forming of conductors around one another, which will mean a longer break-in period. Cable microphony is also increased due to increased rigidity of the two conductors being intertwined.
Some may prefer the cables arranged in a widely spaced loose lay pattern, and that's fine. When used this way, the cables will tend to smooth out and soften the upper mids and treble region, which might be a problem with lower grade digital gear, the piss poor modern day recordings they expect us to listen to , metal dome tweeters that aren't properly damped and / or lower grade SS gear that suffers from artificial brightness and / or smearing.
Like anything else, what works best as an individual component may not work best as part of a system or be best for one's personal preferences. As such, don't be afraid to experiment with this cabling in terms of the configuration that you have them in. Sean
Thank you! Sean, I must say, you have been at the height of your educational effectiveness of late.
When I put the Speltz in yesterday, I just let them fall where they may ("fall" is not something these stiff cable do, but you know what I mean). My system sounded lifeless, colorless, and unextended at both extremes. I'll have to closer spacing and more break in.
Druben-Im think you're going to have to spend some time and a couple bucks to get the optimal performance of the anti-cables.
I think audiogoN member 'eagle' has (from all I've read) an optimal anti-cable istallation.
He has a couple pics in this thread also,In case yoy missed it.
I think my 'design' also adresses the 'special' needs of these cables.
Drubin: Thanks for the kind words. As a side note, i'm one of those people that get killed by the doom and gloom of murky winter weather. Now that the weather is breaking and the sun is beginning to show it's head through the clouds, i'm coming back out of hibernation. That first part of waking up can be a real bear though ; )
As to optimally configuring these cables, twist them into a spiral pair and then place them in the center of small diameter foam insulation tubes that are used for plumbing insulation purposes. When you have to make bends or radiuses, simply cut the foam before and after the radius leaving the cable exposed and then re-install the foam when going proceeding back in a straight line. Do yourself a favour though and cut the foam to fit by itself, not while it is wrapped around the cabling. Knicking the dielectric enamel on the conductors could result in a short circuit on your amp, which would not be pretty.
This approach not only protects enamel coating of the cabling from damage, it also acts as an acoustic isolater to reduce the microphony of the cables due to their increased rigidity. On top of that, the soft foam that lacks density also absorbs the mechanical vibration from the cable microphonics that makes its way into the cables past the acoustic isolation of the foam.
Those that are worried about "de-nuding" their cables by adding additional material around it, forget about it. You've already got a layer of dielectric that is not only covering the conductor, but that dielectric actually contours all of the nooks and crannies along the surface. In this respect, this is why enamel is a poorer dielectric than teflon. Not only is it more dense, it actually flows into the crevices whereas the type of teflon used as a jacket simply rides on the outermost surface of the metal.
In this respect, the foam pipe wrap may be equal to a or less "damaging" as a dielectric to the conductors than the type, density and quantity of enamel being used as an insulator. The foam is very soft and lacking in density on top of not being form-fitted to the conductors. Besides all of that, the enamal acts as a dielectric barrier between the conductors and the foam, pretty much making it a moot point. Sean
PS... Like i said above, what works optimally and what one prefers within the confines of their system might be completely different things. Proceed at your own risk.
The more twists per foot, the lower the inductance and wider the bandwidth. That is, so long as you can keep from severely bending / kinking the cable and maintain a consistent twist ratio. Personally, i would shoot for one turn every 2 inches or so. If this is too tight for you to work with in a consistent manner, go for one turn every three inches. At this ratio, anything between 4-6 turns per foot should be good. Sean
Drubin: Probably the easiest way to twist cabling is to anchor one end in a vise and then gradually twist the wires in a consistent manner. Longer cable lengths can be a problem, so keep adjusting the lenghth of exposed cabling by moving the clamping point as needed. In order to keep from crushing the wiring, you can wrap a small rag around them and still apply enough pressure to keep them from sliding out of the vice.
Others have used a drill but i find this both difficult and far less consistent. Others say it works great and is pretty quick, so try it with some junk wires and see what you think.
George: Never saw or heard of DNM Reson cables. If the conductors are widely spaced apart, i have no interest in them whatsoever. They might sound nice in a specific system, but i know that they are most assuredly altering the frequency response in a non-linear fashion.
Scotty333: Twisted Anti-Cables would be quite similar to the Mapleshades, but in a much heavier gauge. The Mapleshades would provide a slightly leaner and punchier presentation with increased treble detail, but at the expense of bass weight and impact. If one is using a large woofer in a poorly designed vented cabinet, the Mapleshade's may help to restore proper tonal balance to the system. On the other hand, the heavier gauge twisted Anti-Cables would work better in a system that sounds somewhat lean and bright. This is also where the "spaced apart" Anti-Cable design would work best, but with a far more drastic loss of high frequency output and resolution. Sean
Thanks for your comments.
DNM Reson is spaced about 3/4" apart. I am not sure if that is close or not. It does do the solid core stuff well; no treble smear and nice 3D images neutral tonal balance (in the middle bits) BUT it does sound a bit dull. It sounds as though the top end and very deep bass is missing. I have ordered some Anti-Cables and some Cat 5 cables so hopefully will soon have some cables that give the benefits of solid core but without chaning the frequency response.
This are truly wonderful cables,in a few weeks, I will
make a comparison, between TGaudio sp cable,and the
audience,I am both familiar with Au24 and TGaudio,
It also happen that, I am auditioning the anticable
interconnect,I made a request from Paul that I woiuld
like to try them, Paul was kind enough to send me one,
I think they are not on the market yet, so it was a
priveledge to hear them first,My first impression is
they are very good, I also happen to have TGHSR ic,
and au24 ic.I find it very interesting to compare
the three.You will find out why, when I do submit
my post here, or put a new thread.Thanks