In my system...........
They sounded like some very good cable. But there was a significant loss of bass and the whole presentation was lean. The soundstage and imaging was good and the sound was not harsh. It just lacked that body in the mids and the bass foundation to make them complete.
Break in wasn't an issue as they had some hours on them when I recieved them. It is my understanding that break in is minimal. Again, this was in my system with my equipment, YMMV. Also, this was before I had the Cardas GR interconnects in my system also.
They need 30-40 hours. Get smoother, more detailed. Regarding bass, I had the same expirience.
I can't say that my Speltz cables benefitted from a whole lot of break-in. Perhaps they have gotten a little bit smoother, but they did sound excellent from the beginning.
My Speltz throw a huge soundstage, are quite palpable, are grain free, highs and mids are natural sounding, not over-exaggerated, and bass is there in spades, and controlled / tight. Leanness, bass loss, lacking body? => Absolutely not in my system!
I bi-wire with two sets of Speltz cables, and I do not have the (+) and (-) spaced apart. Instead, they are tied together every foot to two feet, using small cable ties.
I think you may have a case of missing synergy. Something in your system is not jiving with the Speltz, or vice versa.
Sounds just like the symptoms of a new cable needing more break in time. I just broke in a pair of Coincident CST IC's placed between my pre and mono blocks. Israel Blume recomends two hundred hours of initial break in and they needed every single bit of it! Had very much of the nasties you described but, not any more. Their beautiful! I have never heard a wire that didn't need a break in. Enjoy!
Realprober, my experience matches yours. After reading how they bested Audience AU24 in some systems on Audiogon I was anxious to try them. But I was a bit disappointed the way they performed in my system. What really did them in for me was the reduction in scope of the soundstage. Still at $80 for an 8ft. pair, an excellent deal, but I greatly preferred the AU24 and Ridge Street Poiema to them with my equipment.
I've had different experiences with the Spletz cables Mine were used (not too much) but came wound together. Wonderful soundstage, imaging and bass are right there. I also was using Transparent MusicLinks before. The Speltz cables sound smoother, more open. Bass is there- actually improved.
When I switched to the Spletz jumpers (from the brass plates), the highs dropped off and the soundstage went back a few feet. After about 10 hours, it's starting to come back, but I found the sound still very engaging and just a little relaxed.
Thanks guys for the comments.
I guess the cables just don't match with my system.
It's clear sound... but just clear. Not so impressive.
Does anyone know cables which has better bass/high extensions and more "air", but still detailed. My budget is around 100 to 500 used. Anyway, I am using a SET tube amp.
With our tube amps (one of them SET), we only use silver speaker cables. I think your options will be dictated in part by the other components in your system. What else are you using?
I don't know how many feet you need but a 6' pair of Quicksilver cables brand new will run you $510. I just sold a 4' pair for $160. They were excellent. Very good extension, and transparent as could be. When we switched speakers, however, we ended up needing a thicker gauge. That's why I think it's important to know what else you are using.
I am using...
Almarro A318A MKII amp 18wx2 SET
Almarro M33B Speakers
MIT Shotgun Interconnect (older model)
Blue Circle B62 Power Code
Rega Jupitor CDP
Basically, my speakers are 2x 4" full range drivers, and have pretty weak bass.
And yes I need a pair of 6 ft cables.
Realprober..the cables can only do so much.You may just need a subwoofer for the setup. Also so far the best cables I've come across were 16 awg DIY solid core silver speaker cables. You only need 24 ft..If I were you I would atleast make them 8 ft pairs.This would make the total 32 feet of fine silver wire.
That with maybe 50 ft of 14 awg teflon will run you some where around $50 or $60 tops. I doubt there's a pair of store bought cables even remotely close that can touch them in price verses performance. Infact since this is REAL silver ..you'll have a pair of cables that retail around $1000 if they sold in the store..
Here's a link to get you started Make your own cables
. These are easy to make..it won't take you and hour to make up a pair. I wouldn't bother with connectors..just something else in the signal path.You can get the silver wire precut for a couple dollars more.That way no measuring is needed.
Take the money you saved and buy a sealed subwoofer.
Believe or not, those speakers create frequency range of 35Hz-20KHz due to the double bass reflex enclosures. With proper tunes, they sound truly full range except for the very lowest octave. (at least with my old cables)
I talked to Almarro representives, and they told me a sub doesn't match with these kinda speakers..
Anyway, I will do more research on the silver DIY cables.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Our speakers have similar specs, and going to a heavier gauge cable made a huge difference. Interconnects as well. We just changed our IC's and speaker cables, and even our 4W SET amps are driving hard enough now that we sold our sub. I hope that helps.
Yeah, I was wondering if I should go with thiker cables.
Do you have any particular heavier gauge cables you recommend?
I would try it. What do you have to lose? Jeffreybehr is quite knowledgeable about figuring out the most appropriate gauge to use. So is S23chang. You might ask them, or just wing it. As I said, we went from 15AWG to 8AWG, and suddenly got way more music, better soundstaging, and a much more open & relaxed sound. The difference was hardly subtle.
Gmgood1's thought about trying DIY--if you're so inclined--is a great idea as well. Alternatively, I decided to try a good pair of factory silver speaker cables, since buying used makes it easy to re-sell at usually no cost. And we're very happy with the move.
I ran the Anti-Cables between a Classe CA 400 and a pair of Magnepan 3.6's. I definitely noticed a lack of bass, clarity and soundsage. While this may have come from the Maggies, I never had this issue with my solid Copper 8 gauge.
If interested I will sell them for 60.00.
I like the anticables but you might try the new DIY speaker wire at vhaudio.com
Howard & everyone, any thoughts on going silver DIY with my rig? As a reminder my core system:
Cain & Cain single BEN & ACI Titan sub
Audio Note Kit1 set 300B amp
Currently using **long!** runs of Speltz cable, but can go with 15' if put under the rug. Can the DIY silver strand(s) in teflon tubing withstand placement under a rug where there is foot traffic?
Looking for greater midbass body and definition in bass. fwiw, I found the Speltz cable to sound basically complete upon initial use. No break in that remotely compares to an amp or other component settling. Ultimately, I'm aiming for as much silver in the signal path as that's Audio Note's call to glory and I'm trying to stay on the path...
I have just conducted a comparison of the ELF Audio Super Helix 18awg solid core CCC copper speaker cables to the Anti-Cables and my friend as well as I both agree that the Super Helix cables sound better in every department.The Super Helix cost the same as the Anti-cables,an 8ft pair set me back $80.00.The Super Helix are very transparent up top,yet seem to have a fuller lower and upper bass then the Anti-cables.The Super Helix have a phenomomanal bass from such small conductor's.They also have both a wider and deeper soundstage compared to the Anti-cables.The Anti-cables seem to bring out the scale of stringed instrument's while the Super Helix bring's out the inner detail and "woody-ness" of the stringed instrument.With the Anti-cables I could clearly hear the finger plucking of the bass,but with the Super Helix I could literally feel the pluck of the string's.The Anti-cables where better than a host of cables we had on hand but ultimately sounded a bit crude compared the more polished sound of the Super Helix.You can view the ELF Audio Super Helix at www.elfaudio.net
Hey pal, we don't take too kindly to shills around here, especially ones with poor spelling and punctuation. In fact, your excessive incorrect use of apostrophes makes me suspect that you are Mr. ELF himself (see the ELF website to see what I mean). Not to mention your transparent user ID (hey, I made a pun).
I have no affiliation or financial benefit in ELF Audio or the cable business period.I am simply a satisfied customer trying to help out those who are looking for a particular sound.I don't think Ernest even sell's here on Audiogon so what would be the point.You act as if my user ID is "ELF" or something...get a grip.I am an official "cable junkie" and appreciate the different flavor's highend cables make.English is not my native tongue so please pardon my spelling.BTW,you are very offensive,and could use some "people skills" lessons.If I find a better cable in my system I will recommend it to those who seek the qualities of that particular cable.
hmmm, Drubin is perceptive. This apostrophe fetish must be catching on, ya think?
Haha...you're right Drubin. Mr. Elf=Highend_cables. No doubt about it. Who the heck is Ernest anyway's.
I think Drugas is really Drubin.The two screen names are shockingly close.You must be a Paul Speltz shill because you have nothing better to do then try and discredit my opinions about a cable I find superior to the one you have.I did some investigations myself on "Audiophile36" and "Audiophile37".Audiophile36 is Ernest Farley's Agon screen name and Audiophile37 is his ebay screen name.Neither of his screen names are remotely close to Highend_cables.From the look of his feedback here,it seems Ernest doesn't need a shill.Guy please get a life.
Well, let's see. This is the only thread you have started on Audiogon. You have
responded to 5 others, in 4 of which your posts are extreme plugs for the ELF
cables. Maybe you are legit, but can you see why you appear to be otherwise?
And just to let you know, I am actually thinking of trying a set of ELF cables.
Yes Drubin I can see why you could "possibly" think that.There are specific reason's why I only responded to these Anti-cables posts.One is the original poster's seemed interested in inexpensive solid core cables.Two the original posters voiced some dissatifaction with the Anti-cables performance in one area or another.If they were perfectly satisfied with the cables I wouldn't recommend the Super Helix cables to them.The specific area's of concern from the oiginal posters is not evident in the Super Helix design.Plus the two cables are very similar,that's why I won't recommend these to people looking for Cardas or other stranded type cables.Posting is my way of trying to help them solve their sonic problem. A shill recommends to any and everybody from my understanding of a shill.The only reason I signed up for Agon was so I could sell the much more expensive Wizard cables ELF sold me.If you noticed I had them up for sale before I even posted about the Super Helix or responded to any post.The Super Helix were so much better than the almost three times as expensive ELF Wizards,that I had to post about them.Just because someone is enthusiastic about a cable they have doesn't mean they are a shill.If that's the case Paul Speltz has you for a shill and Signal cable has a lot of them.
The apostrophe fetish is suspicious...mmm...
Late in the game for posting to this thread, but I wonder if anybody above who found the Anti-Cables a bit light in the loafers used them untwisted (i.e., spaced apart), which as I understand the electrical theory of the situation could make individual-lead speaker cables such as these sound weaker in the bass. (I haven't tried the Anti-Cables myself, but do own Au24.)
With my Von Schweikert VR-4JRs, I use the Speltz anti-cables. I have tried twisted and untwisted and found the bass more defined and quicker using untwisted. I also thought the extreme highs were more natural. I have gone back and forth and now prefer the untwisted, and will keep them that way. I am now a believer in solid core wire. It would take a very refined system to appreciate the difference between manufacturers of solid copper, but at these prices most people could buy both and use the ones they liked the best.
Tgrisham, how do you have the cables spaced when untwisted?
I have a rather short distance between my monoblocks and the speakers, only about 24 inches. I have spaced them as widely as possible from each other until of course they terminate. Most of the distance they are about 4-6 inches apart to each module. The VR4JRs have a top and bottom module, so they are bi-wired. This splits the wires even more, but of course separating the positive and negative to each module is the point.
the speltz interconnect and speaker cables need a minimum of 300 hours and preferably 500 hours before critical evaluation.
i have the speaker cable and 2 pair of interconnect cables with bullet plugs.
since the cable has virtually no dielectric, the cables need a re-breaking in whenever they are moved from one link to another.
thus, if you lend your friend a pair of speaker cables and interconnects, he/she needs to put around 200 hours before critical listening.
This is kind of a "point-counterpoint" post. I have not noticed any difference with my anti-cables over time. Maybe it has to do with the absence of a dialectric (just guessing here), but even when I disconnected it to move the speakers I did not notice a difference. Maybe it's just me.......
the speltz interconnect and speaker cables need a minimum of 300
hours and preferably 500 hours before critical evaluation.
since the cable has virtually no dielectric, the cables need a re-breaking
in whenever they are moved from one link to another.
Everything I have ever read regarding cable break-in attributes the
break-in one hears to the dialectric material on the cable, and not to the
wire itself. With this in mind, MrT's comment above makes no sense to
Please educate me.
Certainly it's Paul Speltz's contention that the think dielectric of his cable means much less break in required.
it makes sense to me that a conductor needs hours of signal before it sounds its best.
the 300 to 500 hours of signal required for break in is based upon the experience of another person who owns the interconnect and speaker cable.
paul speltz will tell you his cables sound somewhat "edgy" when they have no hours on them. he will suggest that they need break in. perhaps you can ask him for an explanation.
"With my Von Schweikert VR-4JRs, I use the Speltz anti-cables. I have tried twisted and untwisted and found the bass more defined and quicker using untwisted."
This would seem to jibe with the recommendation for twisting to achieve max bass response, but apparently with your speakers, in your room, the other is preferrable for your tastes. At least it's nice to have the choice. I still wonder about the guys who posted before who found the Anti-Cables too weak in the bass, but I believe the Speltz website makes this topic pretty clear.
Of course, using cables that roll off the treble as a reference (something I believe many 'garden hose' and/or networked cables do) will make a cable that doesn't do this sound less bassy by comparison. (And the opposite effect could possibly have something to do with why Tgrisham finds the extreme treble "more natural" with the cables untwisted, although that description doesn't tell us in what way the HF sounds less natural when the cables are twisted.)
I agree with Tgrisham and Tvad on the point about 'break-in' and dielectric; the use of the relatively sparse dielectric seems like it should be a mitigating -- not exacerbating -- factor in this area.
it makes sense to me that a conductor needs hours of signal before it
sounds its best.
paul speltz will tell you his cables sound somewhat "edgy"
when they have no hours on them. he will suggest that they need break
in. perhaps you can ask him for an explanation.
I understand the cables may require several hundred hours of break-in
However, the point you made on 11/05 was that the cables required
additional break-in beyond the 300-500 mark, after the cables had
been moved from their original position. This is what makes no sense to
me, and this was not addressed in your reply today.
i have personally experienced a change in sound when i removed the anti cable interconnect from a link between digital source and preamp and connected it to another preamp and cd player. the cable has a minimal dielectric and needs additional hours given the new link. no dielectric= no memory, figuratively speaking.
this is also true of the chimera cables. i suggest you speak to dennis doyle of chimera cable to get a more technical explanation.
i have personally experienced a change in sound when i removed the anti cable interconnect from a link between digital source and preamp and connected it to another preamp and cd player.
Mrtennis, if I understand this post correctly, you removed a pair of interconnects from components A and B and then connected the wire between components C and D. If this is true, don't you suppose that a change in sound after connecting the pair of interconnects to components C & D is most likely attributable to the different electronics than to the wire?
when you listen to cables over a period of time, you discern characteristics of the cable.
here is my point. assume you have two pair of anti cables. pair one is passing a signal between components A & B, while pair 2 is passing a signal between C & D. after each pair has been broken in, remove pair one from A & B and compare to pair 2. listen to the stereo system using pair 2 in the C to D link and then substitute pair one in the C to D link. you will notice a difference sonically between pairs one and two, because pair two has been broken in between C & D, while pair one has been broken in between A & B. if you pass a signal through pair one from C to D for about 168 hours, the performance of the two cables should be the same.
in my case, i noticed a brightness after i removed the anti cables from its original link. i don't believe the 2nd set of components are necessarily bright. i surmise that the anti cables, which when unbroken in are a bit treble heavy, sounded that way after i placed them between different components, even though a signal had been placed through them for over 400 hours.
...if you pass a signal through pair one from C to D for about 168 hours,
the performance of the two cables should be the same.
blockquote>About 168 hours?
...and 19 minutes. And 53 seconds. About.
Break-in time is about 60 hours for these cables. Paul needs to try out the 10 GA. wire it sounds a little better and he also needs to change from red to a white wire because the white wire sounds better, the color of the wire has an affect on the sound. I heard about the affects on cables over here http://www.belt.demon.co.uk
The white wire sounds lighter and more open at first. But after a while, especially if you move it around often, the sound becomes smudged, even dirty.
Jon Risch talks about cable jacket colour to some extent on his website. While i don't know if this is actually audible at audio frequencies, i do know that some manufacturers have played with such things at radio frequencies.
In an independent study conducted by a reputable College, identical copper wound heliwhip antennas were made. These heliwhips were then impregnated with fiberglass for rigidity and corrosive purposes. Four different colour dyes were used in the fiberglass: white, orange, black and grey.
When tested, the grey antennas always performed better for some reason. Don't know if the grey dye had better conductivity or less thermal loss, but that's what the tests showed. Never got to see any further results, so i don't know if they were able to find out the reason behind the variations in performance.
As far as twisting vs untwisted, the further that one spaces the cables apart, the more high frequency roll-off will occur. This can tend to soften the treble response of a bright system and / or seem to fill out a somewhat lean sounding system. Twisting the cables will increase the high frequency response of the system by widening the bandwidth of the cabling. This occurs due to reduced inductance.
As far as break-in goes, moving a cable can not only cause stress cracks in the crystal structure of the wire, but may also cause differences in conductivity at the point of termination. This could be either within the connector itself ( wire bonds to connector ) or where the connectors mate externally ( male RCA to female RCA, etc... ).
It is not uncommon for cables to sound slightly different after moving them. After a period of extended signal flow, the sound of the system typically returns to what one was used to. That is, unless the cables were relocated into a different area where they may be exposed to a different ( more OR less ) RFI, EMI, etc... Sean
If they used pigments in the fiberglass that are similar to those used in coatings (I suspect they would be very similar as the pigments are cheap commodities & would have the same function in fiberglass...color & hiding the substrate) then there may be some explanation as carbon-black is used in grey toned to black pigmenting. White pigment would typically be titanium dioxide...years ago it was "white lead" = lead oxide that is the root of the pre-mid seventies "lead paint" issue.
Actually the Anti-Cable website basically seems to suggest what Sean says: that twisting the runs may ameliorate top end roll-off by lowering total inductance. I was apparently misremembering when I implied that Speltz's site suggests twisting will do the same for bass response.
I tried researching further on the web, to locate whatever reference I was remembering about twisting, inductance and bass response, but couldn't find it again. I did, however, find seemingly contradictory claims surrounding this topic -- and that was looking mostly at independent technical writings and those posted on manufacturer's websites, not those of non-technical audiophiles (such as myself) in forums such as this. (There seems to be similar disagreement over the importance of characteristic impedance.)
So it's hard to know what to make of this. I guess the best thing to do is listen and compare, twisted vs. untwisted. The one time I tried separate-lead speaker cables, I twisted them together as recommended by that manufacturer (the cables sounded rolled-off in the treble and bass-heavy, so I didn't buy them, but I also didn't try them untwisted to compare). A lot of the online papers I read were written by technophiles whose larger agenda was often that fancy audiophile cabling is snakeoil and a ripoff, and who also claim inaudibility for different variables which I personally believe I have heard. Whereas of course the manufacturer sites are mainly trying to sell a product.
As the for the effect of dielectric pigment, given the arguments presented above, why should gray 'sound better' than black? Or red 'sound worse' than clear or white? In any case, it seems to me that the whole point of the dielectric in Anti-Cables is that it's as minimal as possible, in which case so should be the 'audibility' of its pigment.
I've had the anti-cables for 2 years now, just luv 'em. In all the threads i've participated re: paul's wonder wire, i've never ran across a person who preferred to twist them. Even Mr. Speltz sais to lay them so they aren't touching one another.
One thing many don't talk about is directionality...speltz's wire sounds deep & warm one direction and bright the other. I find the warmer directions and leave them to break in. My cables: anti-cables and 2 sets of anti-IC's w/eichmanns all took a month to break in.
No worries if you have these cables but haven't listened for direction...i had the anti-cables in place 12 months, then tried the direction thing & it was instantly noticeable...2 of the 4 runs were the wrong way - i swapped them and a week later the cables make amazing music.
I'm constantly looking for a new sp cable design i like under $500...besides the cheLa design from CV, my $50 anti-cables are it for me.
i've never ran across a person who preferred to twist them. Even Mr. Speltz sais to lay them so they aren't touching one another.
How far apart do you have yours?