it takes more than just speakers. you need to have some damn good upstream components (class A amp helps too). oh, and a great room helps.
rockports do it. merlins do it. acapellas do it.
rhyno |
Agree with you on the Vandersteen's, Spendors and Spica's. Would add the Quad ESL-63 and Proac Response Series. |
electronics do play a role..but even with my Spicas and an older SX series Pioneer receiver...imaging did not improve with either a musical fidelity or arcam amp...there was more detail and better bass control...but 3-d imaging was obtainable with every amp I used with the tc-50s....I believe it has more to do with speaker design than electronics....a speaker either has "it" or it doesnt in my opinion |
Audio Physic Caldera can do it, too. Holographic imaging is one of the strenghts of this speaker. I had them for a couple of years and it was downright scary at times. |
Try smaller sized speakers, or add the medium-sized A-Physics to your list. Also the Genesis line, 501 & up, larger Harbeths, the biggies in the Tannoy TD line.
But, my experience tallies with the above: good placement & electronics do help... |
Try rewiring the Spica TC-50's with cardas wire and jacks, remove the felt from the front and they open up more but will be brighter. |
Most single-driver speakers and electrostatics will image very very well, not only on vocals, but on everything else also. As was stated above, the upstream components are very important to this. |
This list would not be complete without talking about a pair of Verity Audio Fidelio's. |
I have found all the monotor speaker sI have demoed to have better imaginf than any floorstander I have demoed. The only exception being the Merlin VSM which is a two way floor stander that imaged like a stand moutn monitor. |
try listening to music in mono. good imaging is in the mix done at the studio, if it wasn't in the recording it won't be in the speakers, cd player or amp no matter how much money you spend. |
I owned the SPICA TC 50 for ten years and even went out to the shop in new mexico.I still love them but when my pockets got deeper I searched for about one year for a speaker that eschews all the virtues of the TC 50 had better extension in bass,a more holographic mid and a smoother high frequency extension and it had to be very efficient for low watt tube amps.My search ended about 3 months ago when I purchased the REFERENCE 3A DECAPO i which is the latest iteration.The ability to demo them is weak so you will have to look and travel high and low to hear them but for anyone who loved the SPICAS like I did these DECAPOS are the heir apparent to that venerable design.Good luck and happy holidays. |
How about a pair of Verity Audio Fidelio or Verity Audio Parsifal Encore? Great imaging speakers with one of the best midrange....
Best Regards |
Try Totem Hawks, they have holographic imaging that is also palpable. I still have my TC50s (over 10 years) as a back up, but I am thinking of trading them in for the Hawks. The only drawback would be that they are inefficient like the Spicas. |
How much are the Totem Hawks? |
You will not beat Merlin-just look at the reviews at audioreview-they can't all be wrong! |
Nucleus Gallo Solo or Reference. These are the older version that's been discontinued, not the newer HT focused speaker line. These don't come up used all that often, but there is a pair on Agon right now. Check out the reviews on AudioReview. These speakers are the most transparent, best imaging, 3d, blah, blah, blah speakers I've ever heard and I've heard all the big boys. They are not the ultimate in low frequency extension and I don't think they mate all that well with a sub, but from 80hz on up they are simply stunning. |
Electrostatics and ribbons. These speakers seamlessly PHYSICALLY float an image like NO dynamic driver can. If you have the room, they all like to breathe. For dynamics and full range capability I would search for any of the big Apogees. They will certainly give you the biggest bang for the buck. |
I have heard the Maggie 1.6s on several occasions..and Im probably going to take some heat for this..but as impressive as they are... dont quite have the 3-d "magic" on vocals that Spicas,Spendors, or Vandersteens have...I am by no means "bashing" Maggies...they just excel in different areas...such as speed,detail,transparency,etc...and I am not implying that Spicas,Spendors,or Vandies are the "answer"...every speaker is a compromise of sorts...and I am also not implying Maggie imaging is "inferior"...please dont rip my head off!
thanks.... |
I forgot to add Ohm speakers to my initial thread... |
Failed to mention ohm speakers for 3-d vocal imaging |
Other speakers that excel at imaging include the Meridian M-2 and Snell Acoustics Type A (both dating from the early 80's); the Quad 63 (and presumably its successors, the 988 and 989); InnerSound electrostats and metal-frame Sound Labs; single-diver speakers like Lowthers and such; co-axial speakers like Gradients; Avantgardes; Pipedreams; and Intuitive Design speakers. This list is of course woefully incomplete, but includes speakers whose imaging is especially precise. Personally I place a higher premium on a convincing sense of rich ambience, which would be a different list with only one or two speakers from this list showing up on the ambience list. Disclaimer - I sell a couple of these. |
I would add Silverline Sonatinas to the list. My System-Audio's image and stage real well too...but the Sonatinas do this just a bit better :) |
I will add Royd speakers to this list. They do an amazing job on vocals and the 3D imaging is just amazing. |
I believe that the Hawks are about $2200 retail and $200 more if you want the cherry finish. The cherry finished Hawks do sound better than the standard black or mahongany, a mellower fuller sound. The designer said it has something to do with the way the veneer resonates.
I also, had a pair of Maggie 1.6qrs and I agree that they do not image as well as the Spicas or Hawks. The images are diffused and have no solidity to them. Perhaps a big 200 watt tube amp would help (?). |
Flat panel tends to sound big and detail (guess the air move like plane wave). But to my ears, it is like a big peace of glass, huge sound stage but brittle. For vocal, the soundstage is sometimes exagerrating too much that I feel it like a big picture of mouth, huge but the big mouth does not have enough depth for breath.
Somehow I like solo vocal from small boxed speaker like ProAC 1sc, merlin, or SL600.... I think they have the right size for the vocal and if you place them right, they have depth too. For good recording, you can even feel the singer's head is rotating left and right. Flat speakers although have great detail but did not convince me that they can pick up good image over good box speaker. It is not easy for a head big like that can turn natually. For details, yes, flat speaker are very good. But to me, image is not just about big picture and details.
I am only talking about image on vocal. For big band music flat speakers have its own strength (soundstage, details) and weakness (bass shy). |
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Hands down, no question. I am surprised no one else mentioned...... |
I've had great luck with Thiel 2's coupled with an Aragon 4004 amp. This combo left any analytical tendency behind and gave a beautiful image, even in a rather crappy room! |
I'd have to third lgregoir and itsall dark: Verity Fidelios did the image thing, but more importantly, the Sam Cooke you heard was a life-sized, emotive, 104.6 degree man. Don't get me started on Aretha, Janis, or Maria...(Muldaur or Callas). |
It takes a lot more than just good speakers to get 3D imaging. There is source, amplification, cables (esp IC's), room acoustics, speaker setup, and proper listening position. Of the speakers you have already discounted I wonder how many you auditioned in your system. I've heard excellent imaging from revel and thiel. If you've only listened to these speakers in a showroom you've probably missed something. |
Jazz..point well taken...but speakers excel in different areas....and voices...which are kind of the reference point for imaging...are difficult to "nail"...whenever I audition...I opt for vocals first...kind of back to the basics...Thiel and Revel are very good speakers...however...for that truly elusive vocal magic...placement is critical....maybe more than the speakers themselves at this level... |
Upgraded Newform 645's.
Imaging and holographic sound are stunning. I also own Rogers LS3/5a's with Roger's sub. LS3/5a's are imaging champs and they aren't even in the same league as my Newforms. |
Nothing does vocals like ribbons. Piega c10ltd and p10 are worth a listen |
Tiangle Celius and the right tube amp. The sound stage is so deep I feel like I might fall in!
Thanx
Russ |
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Thiel 3.6's and MIT Oracles speaker cables are spookin me on a regular basis. |
I realise this thread has been dead for six months. But i totally agree with Hpshps about the Audio Physic Caldera. The imaging is holographic not just on vocals, but on anything from the midrange up. Add any Audio Physic sub-woofer & the holographics are full-range. |
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