Well, I'm with you about big full range speakers, as I don't have a lot of room for subs and I'm just a sucker for them. The Revel F208 towers are said to have quite strong bass. Used sets of them have been going for ~$3,500. Also, it will be hard to beat the excellent condition set of Legacy Audio Signature SE on US Audio Mart for $4.5K. Those babies are rated -2dB at 22Hz!
"A decent two channel set up does not require sub...lulz"
That's not entirely correct. While many speakers may not need the bottom octave support of a sub per se, ANY system will benefit from a sub (or two) as it will relieve the main amp of having to produce low frequencies thus lowering distortion. This will greatly enhance the mid and high resolution of the speakers.
i agree with @stevecham on the SVS sub. I added one to my system and wanted to cry because the bass sounded so damn good. Mind you it is not thumping bass but the real mccoy bass. You wont be disappointed. Also, i have a pair of Paradigm 95F's. Paradigm revamped their lineup so the 95F's are just below their starting top tier @5,000 a pair. You can find them under that price though.
You are correct that a sub needs to be separately amplified, ( powered sub) and use of a filter preferably 80hz. While I will agree that many people will run a sub passive or active, with no high pass filter, this is not the optimal way or correct way, for that matter, to run a subwoofer. This was something I inadvertently omitted thinking it would be common procedure. The old adage, "never assume."
mental 391 posts 09-13-2018 6:26pm@mr-m It appears that mental neglected to mention that he just purchased a sub for his system. Maybe he didn’t chose his gear carefully as he recommends to others.
mental 391 posts 09-23-2018 5:03p
@yogiboy wrote: "Many people that use a sub run the speakers full range without the high pass option!"
I'm one of those people.
I remember trying to find a sufficiently transparent highpass filter for my tweaked-out Quad 63’s, which sat atop matching Gradient dipole subs. In the end the best results (to my ears) came from running the 63’s full-range and accepting that the max SPL was limited.
Now that I manufacture a subwoofer system, I’m aware that the parts cost in the highpass filter section of my subwoofer amp is not very high. I wouldn’t want it in my main speakers’ signal path if I could help it.
So when I design a speaker specifically to be used with subs, I make sure it has enough thermal & mechanical power handling and enough efficiency that the user has the option of foregoing a protective highpass filter with very little likelihood of significantly compromising headroom.
Hey Duke, appreciate the replays all, :)
I have a small size room and no I do not want horns!! I am not a huge rock or pop genre listener... all I need is “ENOUGH BASS” I know the word enough can be different for everyone... basically just need a pair where I can hear the low frequency sounds better! Having subs not an option for me at this point... I will challenge my request to find a pair that will deliver WHOLE aspect..
Well for MY modest system I put away a pair of K.E.F. LS50 with two older passive subs filtered at 80 Hz by my receiver and powered by a secondary amp, replaced them with a pair of SVS Ultra Tower speakers that I snagged "almost new" for $1k and have been very happy with them at this stage of my system building.
Regarding Duke's finding of reduced transparency as result of high-pass filtering of main speakers, if a 1st-order filter is sufficient, a simple passive one can be installed on the input jacks of the amp powering the speakers, just a single cap usually. His approach of instead making speakers that are built to handle the demands of a full-range signal ignores one of the major benefits of high-pass filtering---removing the low frequencies from not just the speaker, but also the amp driving them.
So here is what we know about the OP:
1) He listens to Jazz and Folk;
2) He may or may not have speakers since he hasn’t bothered to tell us what he has.
3) He likes bass, only cares about the bass, has told us nothing about what he prefers for other characteristics of a speaker.
4) He has a room, it is small, but who knows where his speakers are placed, where he sits, or if there are setup problems.
5) Any speakers with horns are out because as he puts it: " I have a small size room and no I do not want horns!! I am not a huge rock or pop genre listener... all I need is “ENOUGH BASS”".
6) He wants to spend less than $4000.
So given all the amazing information provided, I suggest the following:
1) Cerwin Vega SL-15- "large motor 15" woofer for punchy bass".
2) Polk S60 with "(3) 6.5” low distortion mica-reinforced polypropylene cones with four-layer voice coils for clean, clear bass, better linearity, and dynamic mid-range" and " Exclusive Polk Power Port technology for greater, more impactful bass".
3) Bic Venturi DV-84 with "Two 8" polymer active woofers, two 8" passive radiators".
4) Dayton Audio T652 with " Dual 6-1/2" woofers provide superb bass power and punch" . . . "for unobtrusive yet modern aesthetics and incredibly deep bass."
All of the above meet your stated criteria and should provide, as you put it “ENOUGH BASS”.
" happy listening....
bdp24 said, "[Duke’s] approach of making speakers that are built to handle the demands of a full-range signal ignores one of the major benefits of high-pass filtering---removing the low frequencies from not just the speaker, but also the amp driving them."
Such was not the case in my experience with the Quads and Gradient subs. The net benefits of not using a highpass filter were greater.
And please note that my approach of making speakers that are built to handle the demands of a fullrange signal gives users the OPTION of using them that way. It is not mandatory. In a situation where the amplifier is the limiting factor, the greatest net benefit may well come from reducing the load on the amp. I’m not unaware of this issue, which is why I specified that I try to build "enough efficiency" into the speakers. An extra 6 dB or so of efficiency arguably makes a greater contribution towards easing the load on the amp.
"Regarding Duke’s finding of reduced transparency as result of high-pass filtering of main speakers, if a 1st-order filter is sufficient, a simple passive one can be installed on the input jacks of the amp powering the speakers, just a single cap usually."
In some situations that can work very well. I used that approach in a system I built back in the mid-80’s. The effects of a first-order highpass filter extend well into the next octave up, which may or may not be a good thing. Again what I do adds an option; it does not remove other options.
@shinemaster -- It would help greatly if you'd tell us what speakers you're using now and what else you've heard so it will give us at least an idea of what's NOT "enough" bass. And you're simply not going to get the WHOLE aspect without subs, and certainly not for $4k. ENOUGH really doesn't tell anybody anything except for yourself. C'mon man, make a little effort here and give us more to go on so we're all not just wasting our time here -- please!
I'll tell you this -- for someone who says "it's all about that bass" but won't consider subs, it tells me you've never heard a system with subs properly integrated. There are plenty of fantastic roughly 12"-14" cube subwoofs out there that won't take up much space but yet bring a level of quality bass you can't hope for out of floorstanders in your price range. And the sonic benefits go WAY beyond just bass and extend greatly to overall imaging and soundstage. My advice -- go listen to a system with some subs dialed in correctly and my guess is you'll be happy to make a little space for one or even two subs in your room if bass really is that important. Otherwise, at least throw us a bone here and tell us where you'd like to be in the bass region at minus 3dB. Thanks.
Not Duke, but some people put a "budget" active electronic crossover into their system, and find it to reduce the system's transparency. Lots of people are even using those cheap digital x/o's. Oy! They contain Opamps, IC's and other sound-compromising parts. Plus, who wants to digitize an analog signal?!
There are some real good x/o's available, at varying price points. Marchand's tube x/o's are popular with DIYers, and the First Watt B4 is a real nice little unit. It was unfortunately recently discontinued. Nelson Pass makes a great one, but it's not cheap. People like the Bryston, but it's pretty limited in adjustability.
Soix, fair enough :) Currently I am using a pair of B&W 805 Monitors.. tried Vandersteen 3 series, Dali and Sonus Faber venere series..
At this moment my Dedicated audio room is 220 sf.
I herd B&W 800 series Full-range and Elac Adenta AF61 which I do like..
I just like to know if my request is achievable if so what is the best full-range you herd ?? Keep my budget in mind..
Hope that helps mate.. :)
If you're into used (not quite vintage) gear the KEF 107 or 107/2 will load most residential rooms with enough bass to satisfy most bass heads. I'm a jazz fan too, and the 107 renders subs unnecessary. The Kube EQ allows for bass tuning (frequency, Q, and boost/cut)...but of course evil because tuning, and evil tone controls. Evil.
Having been around the high-end audio for 20 plus years I had a great experience with a pair of Monitor Audio PM 702 gold on a 26 inch stand running a Parasound 2200 sub (then upgraded to a REL 328), great imaging & detail. Cost less than 2000-. MA very efficient, but still need good electronics.
My room: 15'w by 18' deep L shaped room w lots of carpet & 8' ceilings & well insulated.
I ran this w what I would consider neutral to warm electronics (Bedini & direct to Oppo) , but I would be concerned about recommending that combination with your electronics.
shinemaster OP5 posts09-24-2018 6:33pmSoix, fair enough :) Currently I am using a pair of B&W 805 Monitors.. tried Vandersteen 3 series, Dali and Sonus Faber venere series..
I don't know about the Vandys or the Dalis, but the 805s and SFs are not known for bass. In my personal experience, the only way to get good bass with those 805s is to add a subwoofer. You have a large-ish room, so it's going to take large speakers, as in full size tower, or a good sub like the SVS to fill that room with bass.
I have owned 803s, and now have Revel F228. The 803s have good bass, and the F228s a bit better. But, even with these towers, I have a sub to fill in the bass.
For your budget I would look for used. The vintage Sonus Fabers tend to be a better build than the new models. Vandersteens are solid.
You may want to check out these guys as well, specifically designed for small environments.
I hope this helps as I believe it touches on what your considering and what people have suggested in some regard.
I have a pair Sonus Faber Cremona. The original Serblin design with the scanspeak drivers. A few years after I purchased them I decided I needed a bigger sound stage and more bass. Everything I was looking at was astronomical in price. More than I was willing to spend.
What I realized was that the bass drivers from most of the speakers I was researching were/are active drivers. So I began to check out Subs to add to the Cremonas. The idea being that they would become the active drivers.
I ended up with a used pair of REL B2 I have them connected through a Neutrik cable which integrates extremely well with the system. Not only did the addition of the subs bring out the desired bass, It enhanced the entire sound stage. Imaging, Clarity, Texture, Depth. It was like I purchased a whole new system.
Inspired by the addition of the Subs I added the ELAC - 4Pi plus.2 Super Tweeter to the system to expand the upper frequency range. I have pure silver cables that connect directly to the speaker taps for a seamless integration. Now the system is beyond anything I ever imagined it would or could ever sound like.
2 Used REL B2 $ 2,200
2 Used Synergistic REL Neutrik Cables $1,500
2 ELAC 4Pi Super Tweeters $2,700
2 Pairs 1M Tempo Electric Pure Silver Speaker Cables $465
Total upgrade cost $6,865
Original Sonus Faber Price $8000.
Total Speaker Set Up Price $14,865
Frequency response on paper 13hz - 55khz
Most probable frequency response with room constraints 22hz - 50khz
It sounds as good and in some cases better than speakers that list for
6X more.( I have done comparisons)
My kids can still go to college.
Bulky, Not Sexy by any stretch of the imagination.
Took a long time to piece together.
Best of Luck on your Journey
Or possibly don't waste money buying modern stuff that will loose half its value the moment you walk out of the store with them :(.
Be patient and wait until a mint pair of TDL Reference Monitors become available. I promise you will not be disappointed. You won't be able to listen to them if you have loose bowels though. I'd forget sub-woofers, instruments of the devil.
@audiokinesis "The net benefits of not using a highpass filter were greater". Hello, Duke. You bring up an excellent and mostly overlooked point regarding subs and crossovers.
When I purchased my Coincident speakers, which consist of satellites and subwoofers, I could connect the subs to the sats using the subs' crossover, or not. My experience mirrors yours exactly
Dear @audiokinesis : The main reason to integrates a pair of self sealed ( not vented ) powered subs in true stereo fashion along any passive main speaker in a home audio system is to reduce IMD in the speaker/system and you can achieve that main target only through a high pass filter ( teflon cap. ) like the one @bdp24 advise.
As a fact that's why I'm doing inside my ML 20.6 monobloks.
You can read about that IMD main target along all other advantages that other gentlemans posted here:
According with a scientific JBL studies the ideal number of subs in a home system is four subs and at least two. The number of subs makes evenly the room/system bass frequency range response.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
@rauliruegas wrote: "The main reason to integrates a pair of self sealed ( not vented ) powered subs in true stereo fashion along any passive main speaker in a home audio system is to reduce IMD in the speaker/system and you can achieve that main target only through a high pass filter ( teflon cap. ) like the one @bdp24 advise."
I think that what works best depends on the specific situation.
And in particular regarding vented vs sealed subs, again imo it depends on the specifics. I can go into detail if you’d like.
"According with a scientific JBL studies the ideal number of subs in a home system is four subs and at least two. The number of subs makes evenly the room/system bass frequency range response."
Yes, I’m quite familiar with Todd Welti’s study. I manufacture a four-piece subwoofer system called the Swarm, and in my setup guidelines I include Welti’s recommendations along with several asymmetrical suggestions. Welti did not investigate asymmetrical placements but Earl Geddes has.
Briefly, the in-room smoothness goes up as the number of intelligently-distributed subs goes up, and smooth bass is "fast" bass. So two subs are twice as smooth as one, and four subs are twice as smooth as two, and eight subs are grounds for a divorce. So four subs is probably ideal!
My personal experience with the SVS subs was not good at all. I had multiple failures (all covered under warranty at least), but they just didn’t hold up so I changed brands. But before replacing the subs, I played with a pair of Bryston Middle T’s which had tremendous bass. I liked them so much I decided to just go for the gusto and purchased a used pair of Bryston Model T’s, which are monsters and with monstrous bass out of the 6 bass drivers in the pair. I was so impressed with the Bryston speakers that I decided to purchase two subs from Axiom Audio who builds the Bryston speakers. I really cannot say enough about the performance of the EP800 and the EP500 subs; they use robust linear power supplies with huge torroid transformers and massive capacitors (not switching power supplies as used in most other subs out there). These subs put out the most musical, tight bass I have heard and phasing them is a snap. And after almost a year of constant heavy use, no issues at all (I lost 5 SVS subs inside of 6 months).
Look up Axiom Audios’ website and if the budget permits, go for the dual 12 inch driver EP800 or the single 12 inch driver EP500 (two would do the job nicely) My room is a very large 10,000 cubic feet with an 18 foot vaulted ceiling. One of each works wonders.
I agree with using multiple subs. I started with one EP500, it was wonderful, then I added in an EP800 and yikes. At some point, I may add in another EP500 into the mix to really liven things up.
Dear @audiokinesis : " works best depends on the specific situation. "
Maybe I'm missing something but I just can't imagine any situation in a passive design speakers where subs can't help to lower speakers IMD that comes with additional benefits as lowering the speakers THD and gives the amps to works way better when are liberated from the low bass range even helps to increment the headroom of the amps.
When the system amps are tubes the subs is a vital condition " sen equa non ".
Even the top Sonus Faber that crossover 50hz and 100hz will be benefited if frequencies from 80hz down are handled by a dedicated woofers/drivers with a dedicated amps designed to cover the low bass range needs of those woofers/drivers externally.
Till today there is no regular amplifiers that its designs fulfill the low bass range and at the same time all the wide frequency range in any audio system.
At least that's what I learned by first hand experiences in my and other audio home room/systems.
@rauliruegas said, "I just can’t imagine any situation in a passive design speakers where subs can’t help to lower speakers IMD that comes with additional benefits as lowering the speakers THD and gives the amps to works way better when are liberated from the low bass range..."
This was in response to me saying "I think that what works best depends on the specific situation."
I’m NOT saying that lowering intermodulation distortion and liberating amp and speaker from the bottom two octaves isn’t beneficial. IT IS!
But in some situations, the circuitry necessary to high-pass-filter the main speakers causes more degradation than it’s worth. For instance if the mains and amp have 10 dB of headroom beyond whatever peaks they’re likely to see then the benefits of a protective high-pass filter may be negligible, and if the speakers are particularly revealing any resulting degradation in the signal path may be audible and objectionable. So imo, "it depends".
Also in many situations budget is a factor. Maybe a really nice high-end signal processor would make a great and super-transparent highpass filter, but is that always going to be the smartest place to spend the next however many hundreds, or thousands, of dollars? Once again, imo "it depends".
Finally there is this possible consideration: An intelligently distributed multi-sub system can significantly reduce room-interaction peaks and dips in the modal zone, and an unusually capable pair of main speakers may have enough useful low-end to contribute to this modal smoothing.
In my experience a fair number of people who are using a protective highpass filter, be it digital or analog, end up pursuing whatever offers the next level of transparency. This may mean hot-rodding the parts inside their device, or it may mean replacing it altogether with the latest-and-greatest. Anyway this tells me that protective highpass filters do have audible downsides.
By building "satellite" speakers that arguably don’t NEED a protective highpass filter under most conditions, I’m giving people the OPTION of not using one. Budget is an issue for most of my customers, so maybe they can defer the expense of that high-end processor for a while, if that’s what they want to end up with.
Dear @audiokinesis : """ This may mean hot-rodding the parts inside their device. ""
This is what I'm doing through a teflon cap inside my 20.6 monobloks. As a fact I received several improvements because I only change/replace the ML input cap for a way better and lower value/uf teflon/Cu cap along a resistor replace for a top TX2575 Z-foil one that gives me the high pass frequency I need it: around 80hz. I don't have to add any passive device only replace the ones I need to.
In my case was a : " win to win ".
@rauliruegas wrote: "In my case was a : " win to win ".
Using a very-high-quality cap in series with the amp's input as a high-pass filter is probably the most transparent highpass filter format.
The theoretically possible downside is, in the octave above the calculated -3 dB point the output is diminished by an average of about 2 dB, and by almost 1 dB average in the octave above that. Also the best blend in the crossover region with the steeply-filtered subs might be where the mains are minus more than 3 dB, which increases the region where you are losing energy due to the broad nature of that first-order highpass. THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY BAD! It might be an improvement, and it might not; room effects will play a major role in this region so it's impossible to predict accurately.