Integrating the subs is a big problem, IME; however, I concede that someone might be able to make it work.
Dave |
IMHO, Sonus Fiber and VA are from the same school. At your price point you should listen to both, IMHO. I, obviously, prefer VA, but I can see what others see in SF.
Dave |
I love most kinds of music, but listen to tons of classical. (Symphonic, like Mahler's 6th last weekend, chamber, wind ensembles, solo piano, solo cello, etc.) I play trumpet in regional community orchestras and lead trumpet in a big band, as well as rhythm guitar in big band. I attend tons of live concerts and probably listen to 2-channel 10-hours per week.
My favorite speakers are by Vienna Acoustics. They've got speakers in almost all price ranges. The bargain of the bunch, as far as being full-range and floor-standing, is the Beethoven Baby Grands for $3500. (I own these). If you've got a large enough room and budget, then the Mahlers are incredible.
The VAs are very dynamic, tonally balanced and transparent. My little Baby Grands are only down about 4dB at 31Hz and very smooth in the 20 to 200 hz response. There's no ugly high end peak from the wonderful silk dome tweeter, so even old string recordings sound very nice.
BTW, they'll slam when it comes to listeng to jazz, funk, rock and soul as well. Still, one of the biggest wake up calls you can receive is in the 4th movement of Mahler's 6th when the whole double-percussion section hits everything they've got coming out of a ppp section. I almost fell over backward. It was like being on stage.
Dave |
06-10-08: Mapman said:
"I don't know if tube electronics are inherently superior or not, but from his description and some reviews I've read, I would very much like to hear Atmasphere's particular design and approach properly implemented in a matching system!"
I think that's exactly his objective.
I wouldn't want to buy from a designer that didn't believe in his own stuff, so more power to him.
Dave |
Mrtennis, I'm surprised to hear someone that loves "classical" music that puts dynamics as the last priority. I too need correct timbre, or I can't listen. Still, classical music is BY FAR the most dynamic music in my wide ranging collection (about 30% classical). I'd hate to not enjoy those dynamics.
OTOH, for a long time, I gave up low bass and dynamics for budget reasons and chose excellent mini-monitors in order to get timbre right for trumpet and soprano, foregoing bass and dynamics while I couldn't afford them at the same quality level as my mids.
Dave |
06-06-08: Musicnoise said:
"for the person recommending vienna acoustics - what electronics work well for those speakers (mahlers and something smaller)- both amp and preamp? And in general what are people who listen to classical music using to drive their speakers? Tastes run from symphony (mahler beethoven) through instrumental and chamber."
The VAs like relatively high power (at least 100 wpc). I've heard them sound very good with Primare, Bryston, Conrad Johnson and Rowland. My best experience has been with the Rowlands, but that's kind of "the ultimate".
Dave |
06-07-08: Neilmc said:
"If SF uses a simple crossover and VA uses a complex one, you might conclude that the SF puts more into their drivers, for the same price range. I keep reading about SF driver quality."
That's a rather simplistic set of assumptions and I doubt that it's factually correct. Even if the fact set were correct, it wouldn't lead to a conclusion that SF's drivers are superior to VA's.
My VAs have drivers that are available from no other makers. VA just developed a proprietary cone materal for its new flat, ribbed midrange driver for its new "statement" speaker.
Still, I'm not saying that one is "better" than the other. The prospects needs to listen for themselves to these two fine speaker lines. There's a basic difference in character that'll lead you to one or the other, but you must chose for yourself.
Dave |
Nice description Raquel.
Let me chime in with my opinion about the best current Rowland amps for the Mahlers. For those using separates, the 501 monoblocks plus PC1 Power Factor Correction is the "budget choice", for stereo the 312 is amazing and includes PFC and for those of us that like integrateds the Continuum 500 will do the job and includes PFC.
Anyone considering VA and sufficient budget to consider a "statement" product should wait just a few weeks to hear the new The Music reference speaker. I haven't heard it, but it looks like a high potential product from a great maker. Hopefully we'll be auditioning them soon.
Dave |
Mackies??!!
I loved the six-foot Mackie towers that we used when I played trumpet with The Pit Pops in Dallas. We set them on top of the Mackie subs and had about 5000+ watts of power, all-in. It was great for a funk/rock/soul party band, BUT you didn't want to listen closely. The hiss was through the roof, even at low, pre-show levels.
Unless Mackie has come out with an audiophile line that I haven't heard of, don't even think about it. With digital sources they'll be hard-edged and tiring. Even with a live mic feed they're hard edged. Sound reinforcement is where Mackie really shines and those requirements are very different from audiophile needs.
Dave |
Thanks for commenting about the Quads' limitations from an owners perspective. If you listen to chamber music and stay away from percussion, 20th century music, Mahler, Holtz, Stravinski, etc., then you'll be ok, and enthralled with the incredible midrange; however, just about anything by Mahler will crap them out, even with a sub, if you allow a realistic SPL, exceeding 100dB at the peaks.
I love them on certain things, but could never use them in my system with my listening preferences.
Dave |
06-09-08: Chadeffect said:
"Box speakers are always going to give you problems though, and IMHO a bad place to start if listening to classical music only."
Lot's of us disagree with your opinion here.
Later you mention B&W 801 and 802s somewhat favorably. Is that not a "box speaker"? Anyway, many of us think that floor-standing, three-way speakers are the logical place to start for high quality, highly dynamic, full range sound for classical music reproduction.
People that can't afford the three-ways should consider two-way, stand-mounted mini-monitors, IMHO, and accept the compromise in low frequency response.
Dave |
Larry510 said:
"Tube amps have an advantage here with softer 2ed harmonic clipping characteriics..."
I think it's a mistake to plan on clipping, even if it's mostly 2d harmonic. An amp that's clipping a your listening levels likely has very high distortion, particularly in the bass and highs. This should be avoided if you want accurate musical presentation.
Dave |
06-09-08: Atmasphere said:
"...I find that if you need a transistor amplifier to get the sufficient power to drive a speaker to lifelike levels, it will never sound like real music; at best only like a good stereo (Ho hum). So its tubes all the way for me..."
Well my friend, I enjoyed and agreed with most of your very thoughtful post, but I do take exception to your lack of success with SS. My experience is the opposite. As I think you know, I'm also an orchestral, big band and rock musician (trumpet).
Dave |
Chadeffect said:
"You make the point that if you cant afford a full range speaker then make do with the compromise of a mini monitor. Well maybe, but come on, if you are an audiophile how can you compromise on extension? I dont think so. Also remember the question did ask for floor standers... Headphones anyone?"
You just spent the whole post about the glories of the compromised Maggies. (In my view, compromised in both extension and dynamic potential). How can now say that such a compromise isn't an option for an audiophile???
Maggies a few things very, very well and I understand why many are attracted to them. I would just caution, if you're leaning toward Maggies make sure that you can do without bass extention and dynamic range.
With mini-monitors I would caution to make sure that you can do without extention. (Depending on the speaker you might not give up a lot of dynamic range, but that'll take power also).
Come to think of it, the OP never gave us a budget did he, other than to imply that 803s were in range.
Headphones indeed, an excellent option IMHO for anyone that wants "it all" on a budget. You actually can get everything but the flapping pants legs from headphones.
Dave |
Chadeffect said:
"...about $2500. You would get a hell of a pair of headphones for that!"
Absolutely, agreed.
Davd |
Atmasphere said:
"Dcstep, I appreciate that you have not found the right tube amp and so you have had to look at transistors. That does not say however that tubes cannot do the job- even for you- all it does say is that you've not seen that yet."
Getting OT here but:
Why would I look for a tube amp, as you imply??? They have nothing to offer. I've never excluded them from my listening (in fact my first amp was tube and my current headphone amp is tube), but I've never heard anything superior that could be attributed to tubes. I simply listen and choose based on how the amp makes the speakers sound.
What's a CAR and why should I care?
Dave |
Chadeffect asked:
"Cant we have an amp technology that just works? "
We can, that's why I bought Rowland, not because it's tube or SS, but because it works in my system.
Dave |
Thanks Duke.
That was said early on and the OP got way more than he bargained for. Anyway, plenty of viable options were proposed. Hopefully he'll let us know what he decides.
Dave |
Also, the old saw that high powered SS amps don't have a good "first watt" is no longer true in all cases. Jeff Rowland contends that you could never ignore the first watt and that you always needed linearity in all operating conditions. Yes, there'd be tons of unused power if you hooked up a 500 watt Rowland Continuum to a speaker requiring flea-watts, but it'd sound good.
Dave |
The Continuum is .5dB per attenuator step (I think that the Capri is also), but it takes a setting over 30 to start rising above the abient noise with my speakers rated in the 90-93dB sensitivity range.
I generally listen from a setting as low as 50 (reading by myself, sitting close to the speaker with low ambiant noise) and as high as 79.5 or even just over 80 (trying to knock myself out of the listening position with MTT's excellent Mahler 6th). With a super efficient speaker I suspect that I'd listen around 20 and my upper range might be 29 (BTW, those are step setting readings, not dB). I still think that the loudness refinement would be granular enough, but you'd definitely want to try.
Surely, no one owning horns is going to go buy a Continuum 500, but if you already had one laying around, then it might actually work pretty well.
Dave |
105dB continuous at the listening seat is "crazy loud". You don't even get that sitting in the orchestra or even on a rock and roll bandstand (unless the drummer is an idiot -- yes, that happens). I played with one ridiculously loud big band drummer that got run out of the band and he was only 110 dB five feet away in my rhythm guitar spot. I wore ear protection, as did half the band.
Moving from 85dB average to 95dB average is the difference between audience and orchestra. The peaks, even on stage are still only 110dB or so. Smart rock bands are usually below 100dB on stage (yes, not all are smart) but they're probably 120+dB for the first 20 feet from their main PA, even in a club.
Dave |
I need to look for a new Rite of Spring, Guido. Sady my only one on hand is early Telarc by virtue of it being vinyl, it said encapsulates the worst of digititus for all eternity. (I think it was Atlanta in the late 1970s, not the greatest). No rescue by upsampling is possible given its conversion to analog. Strange irony if you ask me.
MTT's Mahler has me thinking that I should look further into his work for modern, well recorded options with high performance potential.
Dave |
06-11-08: Atmasphere said:
"Dcstep, until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it? That was all I was trying to get across, not that tubes are inherently superior."
Well friend, (I consider this a friendly discussion, BTW)it's hard to listen to more than a few tube amplifiers without concluding that each sounds more different than alike.
Unfortunately tube amps get a bad name because many seem to be designed to color the meet some "need", such as lack of transparency or soft highs or rounded lows. I know that doesn't need to be the case, but many audiophiles think that's the right path. I'm fine with them taking that path.
I'm about transparency, accuracy and clarity with controlled lows and sweet (but accurate) highs. If the source has a nasty edge, then let that nasty edge through. (In this digital age it can be very hard to get a source that doesn't add hardness and I understand why that steers some away from SS). Fortunately for me, I can afford smooth, stress free sources.
The speakers that I tend to be drawn to need relatively high power and high damping (or driver control) capacity (I didn't say damping factor, so don't launch into that lame arguement) so, it's easy to see why I'm drawn to high powered, extremely quite, SS amps.
You can write all the papers you want, and I appreciate that you do that as I do indeed read them and add them to my store of knowledge and concepts, but I make my audio buying decisions with my ears. I like what I've found in SS and if my amplifier isn't on your list of approved SS devices, I could care less.
BTW, the dynamic range that I experience in my listening seat is around 65dB to 110dB. My speakers are properly placed (thank you Sumiko Master Set) so that IM Distortion is minimized and the system stays musical within that range. This is VERY IMPORTANT because minimizing IM distortion has a big impact on the perceived sound and loudness in the listening position. Before alignment I was listening several dB lower, avoiding "shout" and hardness that IMD manifests itself in. Whether the amp is tubes or SS is irrelevant in regards to this issue, assuming it's not generate IMD.
The OP wanted a speaker that worked well for classical music. I think that got answered with a nice variety of options. I'm not sure why we're talking about tubes however, but we are. I'm not anti-tube BTW. My favorite guitar amp (except for gigs were it does a poor job of giving me both the tone I want and the volume I need) is tubed and my headphone amp is tubed. I bought them because they sounded good in those applications, not because I need tubes. (BTW, on gigs I get a great replication of tube amp with a mix of Class D amplification and a multi-effects device that'll give me the sound I need from 20dB to 120dB}.
Dave |
I sit in front of the percussion in an orchestra or two, and I believe the 115dB, but it's no big deal, since it's usually only for seconds. A much worse situation was playing next to a big band drummer that constantly registered almost 120dB from ten-feet away. (I had to wear plugs on that gig. I keep them in the gigbag).
Still, I think that generally the 115dB is from the conductor's perspective.
Dave |
Yes Atmashphere, I do think that we have the same end goals and I also suspect that we're both doing very well at achieving them while on different paths. Perhaps you've seen my Virtual System and realize that I've got a relatively small space that is a constraining parameter of my current system. (I don't really feel constrained by my end result, but you always think that you can do more with "more").
In 2009 I expect to move to a home with a larger, dedicated listening space with free rein in the WAF department. I've said before in other threads, I'll be considering horns at that time. I'll also so be revisiting the best of Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Faber and a few others. It's been a long, long time since I've heard a good horn setup and I'll be certainly find some.
BTW friend, will you be at the RMAF this year? I'd love to buy you a beer, coffee or tea and pick your brain more. That should be a good weekend. That little show is really growing up.
Dave |
Musicnoise, Vienna Acoustics has several speakers that will meet your criteria and the crossovers are designed to exclude biwiring.
Dave |
|
Gawdbell said:
"Shouldn't all speakers play all music? Although at least B&W/Vienna Acoustics are consistent in that they don't play anything well."
Thanks for the BS answer. I'm sure there'll be plenty of jazz, just for you, at RMAF. ;-0
Dave |
Guido my friend, that's mostly pretty polite classical music, as easy to make sound good as jazz. I DO notice that, at least for the ones I know, they're all great performances. The Dvorak gets a little more challenging, but it's really pretty easy on most systems.
My challenge to any system is Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Fransico Phil doing Mahler's 6th. The 3d and 4th movements have it all, from lyrical strings and winds to bombastic percussion, brass and basses. This is both a wonderful performance and incredible symphonic recording.
Dave |
Ozawa's Rite (with the CSO no less -- no my friend I'm not seeking out CSO releases to torture you with) is well reviewed and out on XRCD.
Dave |
I like to test with a variety of music, but complex classical is the hardest thing I've found for most systems. When you've all the strings going, the brass playing at it's most brilliant and the percussion pounding away, many systems lose track of the character of each instrument and instead present a homogenized, loud, stressful mess. It's amazing how many things can be going on at once and yet a good system allows you to track each element.
I start easy, usually with female vocal and then trumpet, listening for timbre and the richness of the harmonics. Next I've got a few pieces of pop with synth and othewise very low bass that puts off a few speakers. Big, brilliant big band is next and finally a really bombastic classical piece. Cleanse the ears with a soft vocal or massed strings.
Dave |
Shadorne, thanks for you links and comments. I read it and just didn't think a further comment was needed. Now you've prompted me to ask:
How long is the typical musical peak? If I'm listening at 87dB on average and I have peaks of 105dB, which I have observed and note seem appropriate for the music, if it takes a few seconds for compression to begin, will I experience it often, if ever, in music listening???
BTW, I play electric guitar, so I've actually purposely compressed guitar alnico drivers to get a certain tone quality only available from a compressed speaker (or a good speaker emulator). So, I understand the concept pretty clearly. I'm only wondering how much of a real world factor it is with high quality, high fidelity speakers.
Also, the compression shown on the graphs was actually very small in comparison to the in-room EQ variations of the speakers shown. I'm wondering how much we'll hear those fractional dB losses when taken with all the other interactions.
Don't take this as anti-horn. I plan to investigate Audiokenesis at RMAF, as well as other high efficiency speaker designs. I'm just trying to understand some of the real world implications.
Dave |
Shadorne, I'm not hearing that. I DO sit near-field due to my room shape and the furniture layout, so maybe I'm not compressing my drivers much even with an 87dB avg at the listening position.
This weekend I'll torture myself for a while to see if I can simulate it in my system.
Dave |
Atmasphere said:
"BTW in an average room where you are 8-10 feet from the speaker, a speaker with 89 db 1watt/1meter efficiency could need 250 to 500 watts to make 110db (how dead the room is will play a role too so this power requirement could be a lot higher, OTOH a lively room may well prevent one from being able to hit lifelike peaks without discomfort). You really don't want the amp to be clipping at it highest volume, so its easy to see how hard it is to work with inefficient speakers. If you happen to prefer tubes, 200 watts is a practical upper limit before the term 'gold-plated decibels' really starts to hit home!"
Perhaps this explains my gravitation to SS for speakrs. My Rowland Continuum 500 gives me 1000 watts into my speakers' 4 ohm load and I sit only about 8' to 10' away, with a 91dB sensitivity for the Vienna Acoustics. When listening seriously I generally run the volume at a level that results in 85 to 87dB averages, with peaks in the 90s on pop and jazz and in the 105-110dB range on classical. Those peaks seldom last very long in the music that I listen to.
Dave |
Shadorne, I think you're really overstating the dynamic range of live performance and understating the dynamic level of widely available conventional speakers.
I've taken my SPL meter to big band and orchestra rehearsals and taken readings right in the middle of the trumpet section and rhythm section. The loudest readings have been 112dB about ten-feet from a particularly obnoxious rock drummer that didn't know how to play jazz. If I put the meter on the stand in the trumpet section it only hits 110dB with the section playing just over the stand tops. (Yes, I can put it inches front my trumpet and blast 130dB, but it's extremely directional and falls off very quickly).
At the conductor's stand you're only talking 105 to 110dB at the peaks, occasionally tipping up for "punch notes", but seldom staying there for a second.
So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.
I DO agree that horns have something to offer in improved dynamic range, but I think that the improvement is more incremental and less dramatic than your example would lead one to believe.
Great discussion.
Dave |
06-24-08: Shadorne said:
"So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.
I don't think I am exaggerating. I don't think you will find many dynamic speakers that easily do what you say (maybe two or three?). It is extremely rare to find a dynamic non compression horn consumer audio speaker that will do 110 db SPL comfortably and without any distortion, stress or serious compression at 8 feet back ( typical listening position )."
I said 105-110dB and there's a lot of difference between 105 and 110, BUT I routinely measure 105dB peaks at my listening position, 7-feet back from the speakers' plain. They're only $3500 Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grands. My Rowland Continuum 500 is capable of 1000 clean watts RMS into their 4 ohm load and much higher peaks, so I'm not hamstrung for power, given their 92dB sensitivity.
Because I'm a musician and chose with my ears, maybe I gravitated toward a pretty dynamic speaker, BUT I don't really think that the VA's performance is all that rare in this regard.
Please realize that I'm not putting 105dB sine waves through my speakers. I suspect that'd be a recipe for disaster. Orchestral peaks, IME, tend to only last fractions of a second, then settle quickly down around 100dB and diminuendo back down to 80-something dB quickly.
Guido, BTW, I only take my SPL meter to rehearsals. I'd never think of sullying an actual performance with such techno-dweeb activity. ;-)
Dave |
Shardorne, I'm actually measuring those peaks, with my speakers, in my room. I don't think the peaks are lasting long enough to lead to significant compression when listening to actual music in my system.
Those graphs you showed a few days ago of some top flight speakers really didn't display much compression when compared to the frequency response graphs for the same speakers. Adding less than 1% due to compression on top of a curve that's flucuating several percent seems small and perhaps not all that obvious.
Believe me, I'll be listening to horn speakers at the next RMAF to see what I hear. Assuming that horns now produce a natural midrange, then I'll be very interested to hear the true impact of this added dynamic capacity. If I hear something I like, then I'll be following with my wallet. I already know that Duke will be there and I hope that a few others from the genre will be represented.
What a speaker can do with a sine wave for several seconds is not of great interest to me, if it doesn't correlate with my actual listening experience. The compression shown on the graphs your referenced took seconds to start building up. I think that's way longer than typical musical peaks above 105dB (live or recorded).
Dave |
