Speakers Don’t Matter As Much As We Think They Do?

The DAC is the most important in a system period

 

you get on that price scale, even if you are only listening to Spotify and watching Youtube videos. In general, the most expensive speakers are only worth it if you are working in audio production and listening to extremely high-quality media. site

It's not just a matter of louder volume or bass: big speakers just sound better than little ones. When it comes to speakers, size does matter. Big speakers clobber little ones in two ways: they can play louder and make more bass.

Danny of GR Research fame has a YouTube channel, in which he upgrades lots of speaker XOs. It is amazing how poor the XOs are of many of the well known speaker companies. He offers upgrade kits as well as his own speaker designs

Transducers are the only devices that change energy from one form to another.  Most home systems have two of these, speakers and phono cartridges. Loudspeaker/cartridge making requires understanding a full array of disciplines including materials science, magnetics, acoustics and electronics.  A true physics puzzle.  Designing/building a quantity of "A level" speakers is not something one takes on casually.  The cost of manufacturing everything yourself is so high that few can do it.  Most transducer makers today are kit builders, focusing on something the end user values beyond sonic virtue (like cosmetics).   There are bargains (where value is far greater than cost) at all levels of the business, from inexpensive to expensive.  These bargains always punch above their weight with any set of electronics, achieving extreme performance levels only when everything in the chain is extremely good.

Brad

Just my thought on your post. I do think speakers are the most important element in a system. Drivers especially.

Just reacting to an old thread I guess.

I had to start from scratch 4 years ago and chose the speakers first: Fyne 502 based purely on reviews/music preferences/room. Today they represent 12,5% of total investment. By far costlier is the power amp, at a whopping 50%.

I believe that I have achieved a state of the art system, anno 2003 (o; at much less than half of original asking price. It sounds ok for my music/room/ears

@emailists>

How much should the paint cost in a painting?

Blindjim>

Ask  ‘Tooloose ta trek’.

@Fordste>

Many inexpensive speakers sound wonderful given all the other stuff is right.  In this hobby big money spent looks pretty but does not guarantee the best sound.

Blindjim>

+1

Let’s drop all the talk about cost of speakers as compared to the rest of the system let’s talk about sound. Here is my experience in being an Audiophile for 40 years.  Speakers have the greatest impact on the system.
In the grand scheme to get a great system all things need to be right, the table, cartridge, digital source, preamp/amp, cables, speakers, and the room.  But given all else what single item is going to ruin the sound most dramatically if entirely done wrong?  The speaker!  Don’t care how great everything else is.Swap a full size electrostatic with computer speakers and the change in the sound will be huge.  Any other single item swapped will be easily heard but not at the magnitude of the speaker swap.

On the subject of expense, when it comes to the speaker sound, money has no bearing.  Many inexpensive speakers sound wonderful given all the other stuff is right.  In this hobby big money spent looks pretty but does not guarantee the best sound. 

I have $20K+ in electronics and cables (full Ayre stack plus a very modest turntable....for now) and $5K in speakers (Vandersteen 3A Sigs).  So I'm defintely on the wrong side of commonly accepted wisdom.  I adore my system, and since I got the speakers first I was able to witness how each new bit of electronics improved my sound. As an added bonus, I feel like I can go far up the Vandersteen line--perhaps not as far as the 7--and not need to touch a thing on my front end.

Years ago my big living room system evolved, starting with speakers I ended up hating (mid- to low-end Infinity's), then getting speakers that pleased me enormously (Vandersteen 4s). 

Flash forward 25 years and the same process started playing out in a home office desktop system (nearfield), where I've had 4 or 5 different speakers. Only when the 4th landed (ATC SCM12 Pro's) did it all come together. 

From all this I conclude that when I finally got a pair of speakers that really matters, that gets it done sonically, 2 things have happened:

• I chose a speaker whose tuning, construction, and design please me more than others (tuning being the most important); and
• That speaker worked best with my room of all the other choices

I wish it were as simple as jonesing over this or that speaker, buying & installing it, and voila! Great Sound! But it's never that simple.

How much should the paint cost in a painting?

I find that speakers are the “most important” part of an audio system, but disagree that they should be the most expensive part. Mine are $6000, about 12% of my total system, and I believe that doubling or tripling the speaker investment will have little effect on total sound quality. Using Goldenear Triton One.R with PassLabs/Cary/EAR electronics and high quality DAC, streaming, and LP gear.

Speakers are the most important component. Period. 

Wednesday I listened to a setup I’d never recommend and was stunned at how good the sound was. The speakers were Wilson Sabrinas, in a large room, powered by a Parasound integrated amp. These are speakers that will benefit from the very best electronics from Ayre, Spectral, Boulder. Speakers have by far the hardest job - converting varying voltages to sound waves. They benefit from the obsession to detail and decades of experience the best have to offer.
Every part of a system matters, but given the choice, I’d start with the smallest floor standers from the best manufacturer every time.

@geoffkait
ROTFLMAO

Chomp!

“Speakers don’t matter as much as we think they do…”,.

They don’t matter any less either. They merely deserve the same amount of respect all of the other components in the arrangement should receive, but regularly not the lions share.

I firmly believe as I stated previously so long as an assignment, or verdict on any speaker’s prowess contains subjective evaluation (s) there can be no absolute determination of true performance (better, or best) regardless their cost, style, or design topology.

the one point a particular speaker can make is on the bandwidth itself and how much of it is revealed, i.e., speaker a being full range can develop more range than speaker B which is a restrickded range unit.

as for speakers making the greatest impact on the presentation I’d offer change the amplifier topology from SS to Tubes and then tell me things have not significantly changed.

albeit, many aspects of a system alter the sound and presentation, not merely the speakers.

Anyone in this devotion for anytime at all will see it does not take ‘world beater’ uber priced transducers to knock you off your seat with their presentation, now and again.

I strongly advise anyone to allow good sense lead the way and not some mysteriously arranged pie in the sky chart which denotes how much money goes where, if an audio rig is to be on balance.

Acquire a quality signal, maintain that signal’s integrity and match closely the power demands of the speaker with an amp or amps, address the room acoustics as is feasable , and many speakers will open the doors to excellent listening sessions without the need for extravagant expense at the end of the signal path.

Speakers are the most important component.
they will change the sound from great to amazing to wow this is bad in the first 5 months.

 Amps matter, pre’s matter, source’s matter.

the biggest change in sound is speakers.  

 Audition as mnay as u can, look for what you want to hear,
bass, midrange, highs, or if you like more highs, or better midrange, deeper bass, 
 only you can decide what you like.

 It took me a long time to find my goosebumps on arms, neck and the epiphany and gratifying feeling of “this is my sound”
 tookme 30+ years to get where I’m at, and I’m happy as a pig in........you get the picture.

 Enjoy the hunt and demo’ing a lot.

 Call and talk to Roger Sanders,.........
  with all the amazing maps, class A, A/AB, D, H etc etc

 it’s hard to beat a wicked class A/B amp with almost limitless power, and the headroom.  

 His warranty is the best, and you talk directly with the owner if any issues arise.

 P.s. tell Roger, Declan sent you.

Lovin’ my Tannoy Eaton Lagacys @ $5500 retail...beautiful sound. Hehehe, only paid $3900 brand new including Atacama SLX 400 stands!! I ain’t telling.....😁 I’ll add em’ to my collection of Wharfedales and my klipsch. Driving the tannoys with a Sugden A21se pure class A single ended integrated, pure heaven.....bass from the depths of hell....ok, I stole that from Part Time Audiophile guy lol.

As long as we can avoid the interminable hell of this forum:

  My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

...@ 187 pages, and 9.3K+ posts.....(apparently on 'life support' of some fashion.....)....😒

Speakers are our reproducers, the final instrument.
They matter.
The room they're in does as well...perhaps more....
What's 'upstream' Does....but it's a matter of taste and budget.

Beat a dead horse.
Stitch it up, blow hot air into it.
Renew the beatings.....

..and then wonder and complain about 'trolls'.....

Beats me, too....;)

I have a pair of 30-yr old Sanyos -- two-way.  Cost about $100.  Great sound.  It's the wood box that makes the sound.  Particle board or plywood can't be beat.

maybe it’s been said in this thread but it is illogical and uninformed to make statements as to how particular speakers sound unless you listen to them in your home with your electronics. this is not generally possible so one has to make an informed guess.
last thing but important. it’s said that your  system is limited to its weakest link. does anyone really think it should be the speakers? unless you use effective eq nothing on the front end will change the ‘character’ of the speakers. they have to be very good. 

The process all starts with a room, a budget and a "sound" you are trying to achieve.  You buy the gear you think will give you the sound you want and when you bring it home and set it up in your room, you get your answer.

Most likely, its not perfect and for most of us, the "tuning" begins...not so much with dsp (yet) but with changing wires, electronics and speakers.  Eventually we get there (hopefully).  The better the room you have, the easier it is, the less expensive it can be and the better the overall result.

Every piece matters...BUT as blindjim pointed out, the Florida audio show had pretty much all similar rooms with decent construction and decent sound, so comparison was somewhat on a same same basis.  You could get great sounding (in those rooms) budget speakers and systems from Fyne, Magnepan and SVS....and you could get better sound from speakers costing 10x more driven by gear costing 10x more also.

I only picked up system pricing from a few rooms...The Magnepan .7s ($1400)... represented 7% of the total system cost.  The Fyne 502s ($2500)  were 11% of the system cost.  The Spatial M3s ($4200) were 33% of the system cost.  The Spendor D9.2s ($11,495) were 18% of the system cost. 


By comparison...my speakers + subwoofer represent 44% of my system cost...it wasn't planned that way, it just end up that way after a lot of tuning to get the sound I wanted.

Really good speakers dont cost as much as they used to. 

Many very good used speakers available for less money too.

OP>

… literally everything down to the last cable has been tuned to work in synergy with these speakers. Had I upgraded my speakers mid way through, I would have undone a lot of the work that went into the system in terms of synergy.

blindjim>

not necessarily. I think this is sheer conjecture.  every rig is ever evolving. changing horses in mid stream may have come out similarly with what ever other alterations were made with the orig units.

for EX. what if one stays  in house with speakers but steps up a few levels? normal expectation would be more bandwidth and  bottom end response or articulation, given bass reproduction and its overall improvements escalate usually as speaker costs rise.

however the ‘house’ sound should remain in force to some degree.

OP>

Does anyone have any extreme percentages in terms of speaker cost to system cost like 5% or 95% and what has been your experience?

blinjim>

I’ve been a staunch supporter of ‘the ‘get what you can when you can’, system building ethos for  decades.

percentages be damned. those figures for   pieces within a stereo or HT outfit are aimed at marketing and bare little witness to what can be done if those numbers are NOT in play.

say the ratio for wires is already maxed out in each link , then what? Be happy? regardless the current results? 

one other very large Elephant in this room no one has acknowledged thus far is the underlying caveat this hobby rests  upon…

THE THRESHOLD OF DIMINISHING RETURNS

component performance does not equate precisely to cost in every instance.

has any of the number crunchers around here ever posted a speaker thread which aims itself at finding a consensus as to the percentage of improvement vs. cost as one moves up the speaker ladder?

IOW…. is a $35K pr of squeakers actually twice as improved vs. a $18K pair? or a $40K pr twice as good as a $20K set?

doubtful.

once that bag of worms is opened and than slapped shut, , then another bit of concious consideration looms large… ‘justification’.

one then must be able to justify spending twice as much as perhaps their present squeallers  cost for what? 10%, 15%, or 25% of improvement?

hearing a tad more, or maybe even something not heard before is not enough IMO to reconcile doubling my transducer indulgences. there would have to be more in the equation for me to pull that trigger.

i’ve heard plenty of speakers under the $50K range whose abilities are profound. well under. in fact under $35 in nearly every case, and many far below the 30s MSRP, of course. 

Just because someone, anyone, comes up with some likely unsubstantiated and probably unsupportable pie chart on how to split up the audio outfit’s funding in terms of flat percentages… like at a dealer’s shop… look closely at the systems they have setup in house and do a bit of quick math and see if the dealer is keeping to the same ratios they would have you maintain.

past times, hobbies, and or devotions engage more than simple numbers.  enthusiastic folks can and will overstrech means, some more prudent people will use good sense and restrain their financial    involvement. but as long as the variable is generated by the human  and his or her prevailing condition making the call, its truly an anything goes prospect at all times.

Botom line 

, when all accusations of a thing are partially or wholely subjective, there can be no absolutes. 

@gofastr

byee!

I attended a show some month back where a dealer had three different setups (15K, 30K and 50K). In all three the speakers where around 40 - 50%. So he at least shared the view that speakers are most important. 

They do. Different speakers for different listening situations and experiences.

They have Wilson’s like that at Definitive Audio, as part of a $1.3M total cost system. Flagship Audio Technica, D’Agostino, etc. Major bling bling. Well there’s a lot of Microserf, Amazealot and Goolag money here in Seattle. So anyway, I have indeed heard such expensive speakers in a system along with equally overpriced associated components. And I wish I could say it was mind-blowing impressive, but sorry no, it just wasn’t.

Come to think of it, there’s been about a dozen times I’ve heard Wilsons over the years, always in really expensive systems usually really well regarded associated components, and never once been impressed.

Not that I blame it on the Wilsons. Speakers just don’t matter as much as we think they do.

It boggles my mind why anyone would pay $250K for a Wilson.

Have you heard speakers in this price range as part of a relative system?

room is important but you can greatly reduce its influence by placing your speakers away from back and side walls by at least 24 to 36 inches and listening nearfield away from the wall behind you.
it has worked well for every speaker that has graced my listening space. 
a speaker will always sound better with better quality recordings, amplification and sources.  however a poor quality speaker will sound poor regardless of the above.  in the end the speaker determines most of the quality of the sound. 

After reading this, I end my subscription to Audiogon.  Fidelity listening is just too personal to get much useful advice on this forum.  Cheers.

Speakers are the most important part of a system. They will determine the over all sound and image capability of the system but it comes down more to speaker type. Going from one dynamic tower speaker to another in around the same price range does not get you very far. People who keep jumping from one loudspeaker to another are simply not entertained by what they are hearing. You always have to move up market but not necessarily all that far and there are serious values out there. My absolute favorite loudspeakers cost $50K. It boggles my mind why anyone would pay $250K for a Wilson. If I were given a pair I would sell them immediately. I have had the same loudspeakers for about 20 years and will keep them until I can go for the $50K versions. IMHO they are better than anything out there other than the $50K ones. They present me with music the way I want to hear it. Other speakers do not. Not they they are not fine speakers. They are just not for me. So perhaps the problem is that many people do not really know what they want to hear and keep searching. To them I have to say, listen to live music, acoustic live music, the real instruments. Classical, Jazz and folk. If a system can fool you into thinking you are at one of those venues it will play electrified R+R just fine. 

I started off with a JVC receiver and a Sony 300 disc player that I kept on shuffle most of the time. Infinity bookshelf speakers completed the system. I new nothing about synergy, tubes vs SS, cables room acoustics, etc. Walked into a high end stereo vendor one day and left with a pair of PSB Alphas and a copy of Robert Harley's Complete Guide to High-End Audio, 3rd Edition. I'm now playing around with speaker position and room acoustics. Seems to me I could have started anywhere on the components list, i.e. preamp, speakers, source, and ended up where I am now, playing with diffusers, dampers & locations. It's all been fun and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I've concluded that Synergy=(trial + error)/Time.

@åhickamore>

Bottom line: Speakers make the biggest difference and the rule of thumb is that speakers should cost 2x the cost of amp and preamp combined. OP's experience seems atypical to me.

blindjim>

that plan sounds very, very, dated.

Mind telling us exactly where you found this mandate for  allocating funds when building a system?

this means in just one eX. a $10K line stage + a pr of $25K mono blocks should have a pr of $70K speakers?

good luck with that approach as !  its application likely pertains to the lowest percentile of this past times enthusiasts whose pockets can afford what ever,  when ever tiers of merchandise.

real world EXP has shown me quite the opposite  in various systems owned and operating in different folks homes I’ve visited.

in fact one note on audio performance was being reinforced in exhibition after exhibition at the Fla Audio Expo this year which was put the majority of the funds in front of your speakers and by a wide margin of the dealer’s and or presentors on hand.

the vitus 030 Integrated    demo ($55K) had it driving a pr of $22K speakers imported from lithowania

gershman’s Grand Avant Gard $14K per pr were being pushed by VAC statement pre and a pr of VAC Statement 450s. the VAC triad easily surpasses the Gershman’s allocation.

this arrangement was repeated with regularity regardless the loudspeakers on display with very few exceptions.

implying one must double funding for speakerage  comensurate with the power train’s total investment, is some speaker makers idealistic or at least quite ambitious perspective.

in fact, the digital domain and the loudspeaker technological highway seems to be the foremost avenues which are demonstrating routine and regular advancements, and as such wisdom there would not be to trade in the first borne or get a second mortgage for speakers as their SOTA   is a swiftly  moving target.

prudence likely says to provide ABC speakers with the best signal and electronic control one can, rather than have a superbly capable loudspeaker recreating   a mediocre or even pedestriann signal and or one whose voltage or current demands have not been accutely addressed or fully optimized.

another  note on  the speaker first at all costs notion is thier plain old practicality of system integration. speakers are often large, heavy and affected by more variables than are its upstream counterparts than just  power demands. It is usually easier to swap in and out amps than it is to regularly swap in and out the speakers themselves. 

A pr of speakers  presence alone can ordain a particular esthetic needs to be evident for them to just be in the system and might negate another brand whose fashion or appearance can not be provided albeit their performance could be better than the more attractive units currently in residence.

erik_squires7,833 posts02-15-2020 9:56am"I do believe that being happy with any speaker is the room. Too often listeners hear a great experience at a dealer, come home, don’t have it, and then are sold power cables, amps, etc, to try and reach the nirvana which was always the room to begin with.

A good room is transformative, and can make a lot of speakers sound really great. A mediocre or poor sounding room requires you to chase synergy forever...."

That's been my experience as well.

All components in a system are important but the speakers are your stethoscope.

Had I upgraded my speakers mid way through, I would have undone a lot of the work that went into the system in terms of synergy.

You can't be sure about that. 

So, yes, many listeners will be happy with speakers that represent a relatively small percentage of total system cost. While others would find those speakers incapable of handling the dynamic peaks of some of their recordings, at their preferred listening volumes, and/or incapable of providing the deep bass extension they prefer. And for a given level of sonic quality, in the latter case preferred speakers will tend to represent a much greater percentage of system cost than in the former case.

I agree. 

I don’t agree with some comments thinkng vacuum tube is not the equal to SS
or hype, in many cases if good quality Vacuum tube can surpasses solid state in several areas 
sonic realism is one,  depth of image and soundstage width and depth 
as well as fullness of midBass. Solid state cost much more money to give you the realism ,i owned a Audio store for years system synergy 
is what is most important ,Having vacuum tubes such as a Respectable Vacuum tube preamp to go with a Solid stste amp is a classic mix and adds to the above 
reference.  Also wires you can get to the point of diminishing returns 
if your system is resolved enough spending $500-$1k on interconnects is not much . Myself  bought top wiring good Litz Teflon -0 Crystal pure Copper from VH Audio and saved $$$ 
and installing Copper connections throughout my system ,night and day better sounding then gold plated Brass which is what most midfi systems come with.
everything in the Audio chain has a sonic effect . The front end is also key
spending more on digital or vinyl or both for this is where your signal begins ,
you cannot make  up detail down stream . This why it counts  .i have put together systems in the $100k+ range for the few that can afford it and they are incredibly 
good,and for sure noticable better. That being said for 1/3rd that  money you can put together a very respectable system for under $30 k that is 90% as good .
low Bass you have companies like SVS  3000 dB, for $1grand world class Bass.buy 2 subs if,when you can it balances out the Bass in the room.
for digital there are a bunch under $1500 including vacuum tube that are 
pretty respectable.. one reason I mod my own speakers ,and have my electronics modded or upgraded is for adding say $1k in parts can bring you something 
thst sounds 3-4x more expensive if done right , That is money spent wisely .
i learned  from some of the best techs in the industry  in electronics as well as speakers it is all made to a price point .Did you know that less then 25% of the cost actually goes into the equipment, the other parts are in overhead ,R&D 
and  dealer markup.if buying direct sometimes can get better value ,keep this in mind that is why sometimes buying very good used then modding makes a lot of sense ,if you are handy and can solder or willing to learn
buy quality connectors and wiring and build cables  your self including power cords VH Audio  For example has a bunch of recipes to help the DIY community,Everything counts.

I think we should distinguish major gains from incremental gains. I do believe speakers change have usually the potential for a major gain. Nevertheless it is waste of money if one does not upgrade the rest of electronics. For me this was very evident when I transitioned from Focal Utopia to Magico S5 and then to YG after several years of enjoying each if them. The gear that has made the Focals sing was far from capable to get the best of the Magicos. Same thing now with YG. This experience has proven to me that going first with speakers change and then tuning the rest brings best results and lots of fun figuring out best match in the given system.

Magus what do you have for speakers and sub ?
that is important to know ,and have you ever upgraded the Xover?
that for sure will give you better resolution and imaging  for that is where most companies skimp on , unless spending a lot.

But, IF you understand the violent relationship between speakers and power amps, you might like to think about them as an optimized system. So to that end, in my reference system about 2/3 of the system cost ( not including wiring, room treatment, and power conditioning) is in amps and speakers. This in a single source system.

Transducers have the highest distortion ( including microphones ) because they have the most difficult job to do. Spend wisely. But realize your out of phase el cheapo paper cone midrange is producing a lot of trash. Now try fixing that with a drumroll..., power cord.

speakers are transducers.

You clowns are not who this advice was aimed at. Average Joe with, let’s say, five grand TOTAL to spend, yes, spend a lot on speakers. They have the greatest impact in that range. 

Eh, I think most people here have really good front ends, and have approached the point of diminishing returns with them.  Speakers clearly make the biggest differences to the final sound, but if you have a front end that is not yet up to snuff, all speakers will exhibit their characteristic sound, but none of them will sound all that great.

Everything is nonsense other than good speakers and decent adequate solid state amplification. Speakers are the first limiting factor and then amplification. I am immensely impressed with stacked eminent technology LFT-8b speakers (a pair per channel) run through a pair of dynaco stereo 400 series ii 205 w/ch amplifiers fed from an inexpensive B&K PT3-II Preamp. I believe in the ability to control bass & treble which has to be important for everyone. I have run speakers through a single 100 watt per channel rotel integrated amp and done pretty well up to a certain SPL. Most of the time I am listening through a bluetooth DAC via iphone or macbook. In my opinion the "audiophile" world is full of a lot of hype, nonsense, snake oil such as special speaker wire, exotic interconnects, tube amps, high cost sources, low power amps, separate DACs, separate power supplies, vinyl verses digital and on and on. I hear fine quality at significant SPL with my setup and I have heard plenty of systems. And at the same time I have enjoyed Bose computer speakers in their own range of capability.

Finally catching up with the audio world a decade ago, I started with electronics because my old stuff was totally analog. 
First came a digital preamp which the old dual mono power amp couldn't translate despite a high-end DAC. Got a contemporary power amp (Parasound Halo A21) and only then did the old Henry Kloss workhorses go flat.
So time for speakers. A closeout on nice big Wharfedales changed my sonic world. Best sound since my Maggie days around 1980.
And yet. Bass rolloff around  60Hz. No real soundstage depth. Just awaiting an excuse. So new speakers. And now? Preamp can't keep up.
Bottom line: Speakers make the biggest difference and the rule of thumb is that speakers should cost 2x the cost of amp and preamp combined. OP's experience seems atypical to me.

I’m in the process of getting new speakers, but to just affirm OP's core argument, I’ll tell you this. I have some old Pinnacle PN5+ bookshelves — very small mid-fi speakers from the 1980s. Simply by buying acoustic foam for underneath them, repositioning them, and feeding them much better quality source material from a new CD player, they sound *many* times better. I still want to upgrade, but they barely sound like the little pieces of old gear I was ready to give to Good Will. They sound great.

I simply adore these ” “How much speaker should I….””  argument/debate/philosophy  threads.

They are not quite the venom filled or flame fuelded rants one finds in the usual “Do cables matter” forums, but both are time well wasted. If for no other reason than to see whose hat is in whose camp, and ‘why’. As if that matters either.

In the  interim, the supposed ‘guru’s’ seep out avowing this or that yet no one comes off saying their rig sucks or is way off being satisfactory, or even needs substantial improvements. Nope. All is well in Camelot and Camelot is in everyone’s listening room.

Everything matters. Everything. How much is always the debate for egos, forums and wallets.

Disregard your ego, and just let your ears, and wallet make those choices, not someone else’.

Having ultra pricey speakers are for sure luxury items, yet not necessary for a system to excel!  

Room to speaker ratios do exist and I’ve heard spkrs which are too much for a given room, though not the other way around, but these situations are fewer than one would think and far fewer as the reason the  outfit is underperforming.

Audio Expos for example have an immense disparity in speaker pricing, source units, power plants extravagance, yet many of the rooms are virtually the same size. Doubtless folks will say   of the exact same room, it was great, OK, or not too good, and the only real thing one can examine is the loudspeakers performance when its all said and done. Then looms the real question, how much of that sounds can be contributed to the spkr or its upstream friends? Its impossible to answer. Only how well the performance was can be subjectively ascertained, or how well XYZ spkrs can perform given its front end variables. Some speakers do have their limits of course, so finding those whose limits seem unlimited appears how to formulate a spkr short list.

Only one time have I ever heard a rig whose upstream fare met or exceeded  110K and whose spkr cost was far below that actually  sound flat, or blah IMO.

At the 2020 FAE the rooms which I felt were a cut above where those whose upstream  pieces were way above average speaker costing fare. Well, above! Albeit this came unexpectedly.

Bad sounding rooms are merely more difficult to manage. Its like choosing to fully customize   and upgrade say a ‘ 54 Nash Cosmopolitaninstead of doing up a ’56 Bel-air or a ’57 T Bird. But to each their own.

Performance is key but synergy trumps individual performance en masse. We seek transparency and neutrality but to what extent? 

As Al said, some people’s sonic preffs  lay in different realms of the bandwidth and certain musical genres do not reqire the entire bandwidth be supplied in total equality. The same goes for the expansive dynamic contrasts some genres demonstrate,  e.g., the Ops arrows currently receiving consequent adoration beyond what other higher costing units provided may support that theme. Or it could be supportive of the room to spkr ratio, or greater or lesser transparency of the signal itself.

My EXP has shown as I originally put it, top flight reference line speakers or even there abouts  are purely luxury and top flight reproductions of music can be had on far less levels of spkr accomplishment.

This spkr search must include equal attention to the power demands the short list discloses for speakers and amps are gonna see higher levels of performance if this matching just the current needs from the amp (s) are done well. Build of the amp denotes still more scrutiny, and all alone can escalate the presentation. 

I’ve found budgeting  a system is ridiculous for the seriously afflicted audio nut. Regardless what gets in the door first, its gonna change. 

Unless one has little or no constraints with financial wherewithal, circumstances more than budgets add or remove options just as will personal  philosophies on throwing money at a 2 ch. Audio rig.

I’ve yet to hear someone say the first outfit was a pair of Wilson Watts and an Onkyo receiver, or Creek INT amp. 

Get whatever level of spkr you can. Then add the ingredients to suit. This doesn’t mean speakers first at all costs. It merely means get some journeyman good performing nothing really faulty with them loudspeakers. There are untold numbers of them around.

My money once  some sort of affair is in play will target the source. As the foremost item to be upgraded. For me its been a trickle down affair thereafter quite often. Not always. Just more often thanmy ego & ears would prefer.

If the aim is always to seek greater transparency and organics, tonal integrity and naturalism, one won’t go far wrong. Chasing just transparency will severely diminish your audio library from the sheer abundance of bad recordings. So paying attention to balance is key with respect to the reproduction, and not as much to who ghets what amount of duckets along the way or at the onset.

If all the bits and pieces are of quality,  its reasonable to expect a quality sort of outcome. Mating and matching all the pieces with care often yields greater performance ala ‘synergy’.

The last rig I had to dismantle had about $40K MSRP in front of a pr of $8K MSRP speakers, and a $4K  sub. So what is that ratio? A bit more than 25% of total system cost for transducers?  It sure sounded better than my first effort which had 2K in front of a 2K set of speakers.

Its all gonna change anyhow… 

Good luck. Good thread.

A good room is transformative, and can make a lot of speakers sound really great.

Agreed Erik.

My listening room was renovated by an architect friend in consultation with an acoustician. It’s just a great sounding room. In fact, I’ve been surprised by guests who are totally non-audiophiles who, when sitting in the room only speaking, remark on the sound of the room! Things like "Wow, listen to our voices, it sounds so nice in this room."

I’ve been able to drop speakers of many types in to the room and it’s been a snap to get excellent sound.
As for the importance of speakers, that was impressed upon me earlier on in my audiophile life by a number of experiences. First was having my mind blown upon first hearing Quad ESL 63s at a friend’s place. He had a cheap amp and radio-shack wire but the transparency and presentation was another world from most other speakers of my experience.

Another time was after a truly mammoth speaker search (flying around north America to hear tons of great speakers) I ended up visiting John Otvos of Waveform. He gave a demo of his Mach 17 speakers for my friend and me, with very deliberately cheap amps (Kenwood or the like as I remember) and no-name cables. Yet it was just about the best sound I’d ever heard. Made most other speakers (including those hooked up to gazillion dollar amps/cables) sound like they were trying.It was the speaker design that made the difference.

On the other hand, I’ve been able to have incredibly enjoyable sound hooking up a variety of speakers, from expensive to small and modest, in my room and powered by my CJ tube amps. So I also get the "any decent speaker can sound great if optimized in a room/system" thing too.