Speakers and amplifiers show audiophiles are confused.


An audiophile buys a pair of speakers for $50K or $100K then asks what amps make them sound best. That’s about as smart as marrying a girl without knowing her personality. What are the specs that will insure your expensive new speakers and amps will work optimality with each other? There’s got to be an app for that, well no there isn’t because there are too many variables and companies don’t present their specs in a standard ways. Why is it that speaker and amplifier manufactures don’t recommend specific amps for their speakers? Beyond power, impedance, and making your own crossovers how do you choose amplifiers to get all the potential out of your speakers?

128x128donavabdear

Showing 23 responses by kota1

For $50K+ I can figure out a room NP and worry about the speakers later 😎

 

An audiophile buys a pair of speakers for $50K or $100K then asks what amps make them sound best.

If anyone is buying speakers that cost $50K+ they likely thought long and hard about a matching amp before banging their plastic.

I think you asked the wrong question. The bigger problem is matching the speakers to the room, placing them, getting the room treated and dialed in, and of course doing this all with WAF, not the amp.

 

I once bought a Parasound amp and called the manufacturer for speaker recommendations. Richard Schram (owner) spent about 20 min with me discussing the speakers they use at shows, what he uses, etc. Great experience.

@donavabdear then one of you smart people would say here it is a, b, c, d.

Are you saying the rest of us are not smart? That is a bit condescending no? Amp pairing just isn’t the problem you make it out to be. I gave you a great amp to bi-amp your Paradigms and you seem happy with the one you have, NP. I recommended an active speaker over the passives but you seem happy with your current speakers, NP. Everyone in this hobby goes through a similar process, I have seen very few threads of someone with a pair of luxury speakers that had trouble matching an amp. I think room acoustics are a far more common problem.

If we were making an app for audiophile equipment paring what would the variables be?

Personal taste, budget, and room size.

@donavabdear 

When you are at Axpona please try and stop by Bob Carver corp at booth 1643 , Bryston at booth 556. Carver has new tube amp and preamp and Bryston has the active speakers and the SP4 Home Theater processor (that will also act as an active crossover) that make an end to end system.

@ghdprentice

So, putting a great system together is a lot of work.

It used to be a lot of work, in 2023 it is only work if you want it to be. You can have virtually any product shipped to your door with a 30-60 day return policy if you like to mix and match.

You can get a "designer system" with matched components from end to end from many manufacturers such as Bryston, Harman, Sony, Anthem, etc.

You can get an active speaker that has everything (speaker, amp, preamp,streamer, app control, DSP, etc) together from manufacturers like KEF, Dynaudio, JBL, etc.

The old days you used to "shlep" from dealer to dealer. These days you just "surf" from online dealers, to forums like this, to youtube, and to reviews.

So, I suppose it could get even easier but it is actually ridiculous how easy it is already.

 

Today matching amps to speakers/crossovers is rooted in personal feelings and corporate marketing, the definition of confusion.

Your post is confusing, crossovers and speakers are typically matched by the speaker designer and if they get a lot of returns and hurt a lot of personal feelings its bad for business. Amps are designed with the notion that they need to drive various types of speakers and specs are posted to help customers choose based on their type of speaker.

Maybe @donavabdear can post a link to one of these sinister corporate marketing campaigns touting mismatched crossovers and speakers or amps that are making claims they can't support???

@musicaddict

Selecting a grab-bag of "THX" gear and hoping it all sounds great together as a ’team’ is an interesting approach but one I’d deem aimed more at mid-fi, and folks who don’t have the time or inclination to audition (or don’t trust their ears if they do).

I think that is a fair assessment, exactly the market that needs something like that to guide them +1.

The THX rating seems to also have a high end market as well, Perlisten, KEF, Meridian, Parasound, and Benchmark. KEF’s US demo room at their NJ HQ is THX Dominus certified and they wear that like a badge of honor. Perlisten partnered with Storm Audio and Dirac at CES and bragged about their THX Dominus creds, this room is pretty high end:

https://youtu.be/iYG3OyGc8oY

Look how Benchmark positions their THX amp in the high end:

Pair the DAC3 (DAC-preamplifier) with the AHB2 (power amplifier) to create the ultimate high-resolution music system. These matched Benchmark components are designed to reproduce music without imparting audible noise, distortion, or coloration. 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/amp

 

If I had a tight budget, did not want to to do much research, and wanted a matched system of various brands I would buy THX certified gear. That company’s sole purpose is to test gear so the THX standard plays together as a team. I have a THX receiver by Onkyo and a THX amp by Carver, absolute war horses punching way above their cost. Perlisten is winning awards for their speakers and they are touting the "THX Dominus" creds. So if the OP is really concerned about a mix and match recipe that one seems to work. When you look at these THX certified products all of them seem to hit high marks for quality. If you really want a mix and match app here is the THX one:

https://www.thx.com/product-finder?room=20

Its nice to have auditioned the Sonus Faber, did you check out the McIntosh gear/amp you were thinking about? 

 

Manufactured are simply taking advantage of audiophiles

No, you are not a victim. You jumped into this hobby and figured your pro chops would transfer quickly, they didn't. No one took advantage of you (accept maybe that killer speaker salesman who sold you passive speakers, which you already knew weren't as good as actives). Don't slime the industry because you didn't know there was a learning curve. 

BTW, look forward to hearing your adventures when you get back from Axpona.

Because once the audiophile handed the money over, s/he is attached to the idea that the money equaled sound quality.

I haven't noticed that on this forum, most members seem to advocate auditioning equipment using 30-60 day return policies. I do agree that people have biases re: equipment (tube vs solid state, etc). I have also noticed a passion among the DIY crowd to upgrade vintage or inexpensive gear. 

@donavabdear 

Sounds like fun, remember to check out the Carver room and Bryston, hopefully Bryston will be demoing their active speakers. I bought my first pair of decent speakers thanks to a good salesman who steered me to a brand from the UK I had never heard of, Mission. I still have a warm spot for that brand. I like competent sale people because they know their gear and generally save me time, even over the phone (audioadvisor, crutchfield, etc).

Never buy anything from a human that is trying to sell you on anything. Humans are far too dangerous for that. Know what you want first then get the best price you can.

DON’T watch TV, DON’T turn on the internet, DON’T read anything with ads, and have someone sort all of you mail for junk before looking at it.

This is ridiculous,

"If we asked people what they want they would have said faster horses"

Henry Ford

As for sales people, I don’t own any Apple products but could listen to Steve Jobs pitch them to me and be captivated.

Steve introducing the iPhone in 2007:

https://youtu.be/MnrJzXM7a6o

Screw what "everyone" says, the experience will give you a bar, not perfection. You also will have the ability to tap into knowledge of other people at the show, the vendors, and the dealers. Not everyone will have a bad room, not to worry. You will also find word of mouth spreads quickly to what rooms are "must see".

Take a look at this review of last years show:

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/my-best-of-axpona-demonstration-list/

some of the most expensive systems sounded horrible

and some of the less expensive systems can sound great. That is the thing I like about this hobby, the "hacks" where you can leverage your investment. Sitting on my porch yesterday with just an $800 pair of deftech active speakers (the W7) which are basically 8 inch cubes and having them sound HUGE because of the tri-polar design offering accurate sound that’s widely dispersed, in the worst conditions, a porch surrounded by picture windows is just fun. The speaker has an intelligent design that allows it to sound much more expensive in a terrible room, even streaming spotify. That just makes my day:

Definitive Technology W7 Diagram of drivers

@donavabdear

Sounds like a good time, I understand Dave’s issue, there is always a dynamic between engineering and sales. Glad to hear he agrees that active is the best way to go. I would love to get a Bryston matched system of the Active Mini T’s and the Bryston SP4 processor which eliminates the need for the Bax-1 digital crossover.

The video I saw of the Cabasse room was amazing, a small pair of active speakers that sounded HUGE and clear and less than $3K for everything. Glad you got to connect with Bill, I guess the outskirts must work for me, YMMV. I don’t see Nordost as a company that could be bamboozled and they bought Bill's last company, QRT. They must like the outskirts too:

https://novo.press/nordost-qrt-power-products-review-part-1-of-3-qx-power-purifiers-qx4/

@donavabdear

I was walking buy and remembered the sound from studios I heard 30 years ago in the studios and so I walked in and sure enough it was JBL speakers they were made just like old ones were, but at about 1/8th the price.

I like it! I have JBL’s in the man cave, the Studio 2 series and I wouldn’t change it out for anything, no matter how much $$$. Do you remember what series you listened to? They have a line of "classic"/retro speakers and a new active model just came out. You can find JBL’s at discounts frequently. The Studio 5 series were designed by Greg Timbers based on compression drivers. The Studio 2 series was the first series to use the trickle down tech from the M2 flagship. If I were shopping for towers I would take the 590’s in a snap, such a great price at half off:

https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+590.html

 

and the 550P sub, just ridiculous. I feel like buying two of them and upgrading my room to 4 subs just in principle at this price:

https://www.jbl.com/home-audio/SUB+550P.html?cgid=home-audio

 

I know there are more expensive speakers but when you have something you like so much like JBL it would be a lateral move, not really an upgrade. The L100 are about $2000 a pair and I have seen them on sale for less. I know my 230’s are amp sensitive as they REALLY open up when fed quality power. If I were going to get a new pair I would want these active speakers that are based on their studio monitors. I know you can spend a lot more money but I just don’t feel the need to when you can get all this for $2200, Remember, you can run them wired or wireless and its more than speakers, its a system:

https://www.audioadvice.com/jbl-4305p-powered-bookshelf-speakers-pair