Speakers

I would look into Vienna Acoustic speakers. They make excellent speakers, and you may be able to pick up a paor of Strauss' for around $5k. Their is a pair of Mahlers (their best) here for $5.5k).

KF

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1041471439&openusid&zzTok20000&4&5#Tok20000

You gotta find speakers you like first before you get an amp you like. See my above post for the reasons.

Not all amps can drive all speakers. Even some of the amps I would claim are 'world class' are not designed to drive all speakers.

Find speakers you really like then match an amp with them.

KF

I do not necessarily agree with that addage.

Let's take the world class amp the LAMM ML2 for example. The ML2 is quite frankly one of the finest SET amps made, period. But is someone were to buy this amp thinking that such an excellent amp could be matched with their favorite speaker (their favorite speaker still being an unknown variable), they would be taking a huge risk. The ML2 at 18 wpc or so at 3% THD needs to be matched with speakers that are at least 94db+ efficient.

The preceeding example might seem like an obvious one, so I will give you a little less than obvious one.

The Sim Moon W-5 amp has been reviewed rather well by critics. I have had a W-5 myself. I would say it could be a very good amp. I would not say it is world class (although Stereophile did stick it in Class A). Anyway, the amp is a powerful amp at 200wpc into 8 ohms and 400wpc into 4 ohms. One might think based on the current specifications and press that this is the amp to drive Maggie 3.6 speakers with (Stereophile certainly thought so). All I can say is that this amp did NOT do anything for my Maggie 3.6's when I had both in my system. This is not the amp to drive Maggies with. A Plinius SA-250mk4 on the other hand.... drives the Maggies big time.

Another example of needing to mate an Amp with speakers (and not to mention your front end) has to do with system gain. System gain can be a serious issue if you have one or more of the following circumstances:

1 - Speaker are not sensative at all.
2 - Speakers are really sensative.
3 - Preamp is passive or just does not have much gain at all.
4 - Preamp volume is stepped and does not have many steps.
5 - Source has a lot of gain.
6 - Source has very little gain.

Anyone one or more of these above circumstances can wreak havok with a systems ability to amplify music or control the amplification of music.

You do not necessarily want to drive any set of speakers with ANY great 100+wpc amp. Especially if your speakers you like are Hornes that are 103db or so, and the amp you are thinking about using is very sensative to input voltage. AND ESPECIALLY if your preamp is stepped, and your source has a very high output. This is a combo that can get you into serious gain trouble. Basically, you will find that at the first step on your volume could way too lound, and your second step is extremely loud. In an instance like this, I would recommend something like a Cary Rocket 88 tube amp which is pretty low powered and not very sensative. Yes, I have had a Rocket 88 amp as well.

The preceeding 3 examples goes to show that one should fall in love with speakers first and buy them first. Then get the amplification to best mate with your speakers. If for some reason your current amplification cannot drive the speakers that you desire, you will need to wait, or buy amplification with your new speakers that matches your new speakers well.

BTW I can give many examples similiar to the above ones as to why a world class amp will not necessarily make mediocre speakers sound good at all. It is all in the mating. If the mediocre speakers are not matched properly with the amplification, you just are not going to get good sound.

Saying world class amplification can drive any speaker well is far too simplistic. This is contrary to many experiences I have been through/

One more real world example. If I had not been able to change the internal sensativity of my GamuT D-200 amp, I would not have been able to use the D-200 in my system when I had the Cary 306/200 CDP. I had to adjust the D-200 to the lowest sensativity due to gain issues. The Cary puts out a whopping 6v through XLR. This massive output combined with the Ayre K-3x stepped volume control combined with a very sensative GamuT D-200 amp (at factory default setting) and 90db speaker (glad my speakers are not MORE sensative), this let to minimal low level volume control. At 4-5 notches on the Ayre preamp, my volume was full blast for my ears. This is not good, and the problem was solved by getting a source with a lower output, and switching the GamuT to a lower sensativity setting.

KF

First I would like to state that amplification is important and spending $5k on speakers and driving them with a $500 amplifier (any $500 amp) does not make a whole lot of sense.

If you can afford $5k for speakers now, and will be able to afford to spend $2k+ on an amp in the very near future, that is fine. But if you want to spend $5k on speakers now (using a $500 or so amp), and in a year or so spend $2k+ on an amp, you would MOST LIKELY BE BETTER OFF GETTING $3K SPEAKERS NOW AND SPENDING AORUND $2K ON AN AMP TO MATCH THEM NOW.

Besides component matching, there is such thing as component balance. Nice transparent $5k speakers are going to force you to hear the limits of the upstream components driving them (especially when one has so-so components upstream). Just as mating a world class amp with a middle of the road speaker that the amp can easily drive, you will seriously start hearing the limits of that speaker. This is another reason it is not always good to start with getting a great amp first with middle of the road speakers. Some speakers do not really show their limits or serious flaws until they have an amp driving them that can totally dominate them. These speakers can potentially have resonances that appear, their bass can sound well... not-so-good (trying to reach frequencies that the amp is completely solid to but the speaker was never intened to read), the trebble can start sounding harsh... Whatever minor problems the speaker had in a middle of the road system are amplified many fold when being driven by a great amp (that can drive the speaker well).

Now I am not going to say that all middle of the road speakers will demonstrate fatal flaws when hooked up to nice amplification, but they can, and I have experienced these situations first hand with several older speakers I have owned.

A person is far better off selecting a speaker they love (soundwise), and matching an amp to it (maybe the amp that they heard the speaker on?). Then a person who goes out and buys a great amp and then makes a speaker decision.

Personally, IMHO, there are many more great amps in the world than great preamps. I think most sound in the upstream components gets negatively impacted by the preamplification. If your amp is capable of driving your speakers, besides your speakers, I think the preamp makes the biggest impact on a system. This may seem difficult to understand for the relatively new audiophile, and it has taken me nearly 16 years to come to this conclusion. The preamps should be the ONLY device that regulates/filters sound in a music system. This regulation/filtration is of the absolute utmost importance because what signal gets through the preamp is the ONLY signal that an amplifier can amplify. Bad preamplification can screw up world class sources. Bad preamplification can make a world class amp sound veiled. Bad preamplification can make world class speakers sound anything but world class.

Most people do not put enough emphisis on a preamp because nearly any preamp can seemingly work in any system (this is absolutely not true, but some people passively believe it). As opposed to amps... not every amp can drive any speakers well (most people know this).

Anyway, this and $2 will get you a cofee at Starbucks.

KF