Speaker Spike Philosophy


This is a learning exercise for me.

I am a mechanics practitioner by training and by occupation, so I understand Newton’s Laws and structural mechanics and have a fairly effective BS-detector.

THE FOLLOWING THINGS PUZZLE ME, and I would be glad to hear from those who believe they understand so long as the responses are based on your actual experience or on sound mechanical arguments (or are labeled as conjecture). These are independent questions/musings, so feel free to weigh in on whichever ones you want, but please list the number(s) to which you are responding:

  1. Everything I have read recently ("Ask Richard" (Vandersteen) from 15 Feb, 2020, for instance) seems to indicate that the reason for speaker spikes is to hold the speaker fixed against movement induced by the drivers. I have seen in the past other explanations, most employing some use of the term "isolation" implying that they decouple the speaker (from what?) Evidently the "what?" is a floor that is fixed and not moving (let’s assume concrete slab foundation). So to decouple the speaker from the floor, which is fixed, is to . . . allow it to move (or not) as it wishes, (presumably in response to its drivers). These two objectives, "fixity" and "isolation" appear to me to be diametrically opposed to one another. Is the supposed function of spikes to couple the speaker to "fixed ground" so they don’t move, or is it to provide mechanical isolation so that they can move (which I do not think spikes actually do)? Or, is it to somehow provide some sort of "acoustic isolation" having to do with having some free space under the speaker? Regarding the mechanical isolation idea, I saw a treatment of this here: https://ledgernote.com/blog/q-and-a/speaker-spikes/ that seemed plausible until I got to the sentence, "The tip of a sphere or cone is so tiny that no vibration with a long waveform and high amplitude can pass through it." If you have a spike that is dug into a floor, I believe it will be capable of passing exactly this type of waveform. I also was skeptical of the author’s distinction between *speaker stand* spikes (meant to couple) and *speaker* spikes (meant to isolate/decouple, flying in the face of Richard Vandersteen’s explanation). Perhaps I am missing something, but my BS-detector was starting to resonate.
  2. Spikes on the bottoms of stands that support bookshelf speakers. The spikes may keep the the base of the stand quite still, but the primary mode of motion of such speakers in the plane of driver motion will be to rock forward and backward, pivoting about the base of the stand, and the spikes will do nothing about this that is not already done by the stand base without spikes. I have a hard time seeing these spikes as providing any value other than, if used on carpet, to get down to the floor beneath and add real stability to an otherwise unstable arrangement. (This is not a sound quality issue, but a serviceability and safety issue, especially if little ones are about.)
  3. I have a hard time believing that massive floor standers made of thick MDF/HDF/etc. and heavy magnets can be pushed around a meaningful amount by any speaker driver, spikes or no. (Only Rigid-body modes are in view here--I am not talking about cabinet flexing modes, which spikes will do nothing about) "It’s a simple question of weight (mass) ratios." (a la Holy Grail) "An 8-ounce speaker cone cannot push around a 100/200-lb speaker" (by a meaningful amount, and yes, I know that the air pressure loading on the cone comes into play as well; I stand by my skepticism). And I am skeptical that the amount of pushing around that does occur will be affected meaningfully by spikes or lack thereof. Furthermore, for tower speakers, there are overturning modes of motion (rocking) created by the driver forces that are not at all affected by the presence of spikes (similar to Item 1 above).
  4. Let’s assume I am wrong (happens all the time), and the speaker does need to be held in place. The use of feet that protect hardwood floors from spikes (Linn Skeets, etc.) seems counterproductive toward this end. If the point of spikes is to anchor the speaker laterally (they certainly do not do so vertically), then putting something under the spikes that keep the spikes from digging in (i.e., doing their supposed job) appears to defeat the whole value proposition of spikes in the first place. I have been told how much easier it is to position speakers on hardwood floors with the Skeets in place, because the speakers can be moved much more easily. I was thinking to myself, "yes, this is self-evident, and you have just taken away any benefit of the spikes unless you remove the Skeets once the speakers are located."
  5. I am making new, thick, hard-rock maple bases for my AV 5140s (lovely speakers in every sense), and I will probably bolt them to the bottom of the speakers using the female threaded inserts already provided on the bottoms of the speakers, and I will probably put threaded inserts into the bottom of my bases so they can be used with the Linn-provided spikes, and I have already ordered Skeets (they were a not even a blip on the radar compared to the Akurate Exaktbox-i and Akurate Hub that were part of the same order), and I will end up doing whatever sounds best to me. Still, I am curious about the mechanics of it all...Interested to hear informed, reasoned, and reasonable responses.
linnvolk

Showing 5 responses by audiopoint

The creative questions presented by the OP are not capable of two sentence explanations. I attempted to keep more of the interesting facts and opinions in full view asking for your patience involving the length of read.

To linnvolk, in reply to your original post:

Generic Spikes are the problem!

Line item 1: Spikes cannot be defined or grouped into a single topic as no two designs are manufactured the same nor contain the same material-science or shape, therefore will not function in the same manner. This is true for spheres and springs and any other footer materials used in audio. Some cost a couple dollars where others are priced in the hundreds so which one should be used as the principal focus for topic discussion?

Disclaimer: I represent a thirty-two-year-old spike design that has earned a reputation in High-End Audio for delivering performance managing the musical characteristics known as attack, sustain and decays. We also manufacture platforms for floor standing speakers.

There are a lot of opinions focused on eliminating vibration on this forum. They are all based on theorems. In fact, “all methods of vibration management” are based on theorems, so it is easy to see that most listeners have a favorite of their own or have created a theory for themselves and that is a good thing as this is how Industry grows.


The only thing that all spikes have in common is they ‘mechanically ground’ a device to the greater energy sink in the environment. A spike can be defined as a mechanical resonance conductive conduit. An energy sink can be defined as the greater mass - of a floor, wall or room structure or earth’s ground itself.

Physics dictates all energy seeks earth’s ground and will transfer there via the path of least resistance.

In audio, spikes deliver a wide variety of speeds of resonance energy transfer which greatly affects the frequencies of the device being mechanically grounded. The material used to make spikes, their mass and body shapes are paramount to the overall function and sonic result of a spike.

Driver and chassis movement:

In my opinion, speaker cone movement related to chassis movement is a widening gate for arguments and subjectivity. There is no “live test” for speaker dispersion, meaning a driver could be firing a ninety-degree vertical spread on the left side and a sixty-degree horizontal spread on the right and no way to prove otherwise in a live dynamic environment.

 The first response to that statement is the anechoic test. Anechoic is a vacuum environment designed to tear away and absorb all energy including vibration, resonance and the laminar flows of energy seeking earth’s ground. We take computer generated readings and images to “show” the drivers are firing in the round then end up placing the speaker into a “live environment” where the laws of gravity, motion and Coulomb’s friction are ever present disrupting the anechoic test results. Then again, data is important so any type of test benefits education.

Speaker movement and chassis movement are minimalist concerns when the speaker system is mechanically grounded. In all my days of listening as a sound engineer and commercial sound consultant to the music lover and avid audiophile, there was never a time where I have been able to blame speaker cone movement related to chassis movement as a negative factor when encountering poorer sound quality. Or maybe I cannot tell or do not know if infinitesimal movement is audible.

My focus is audibility. Inaudibility delivers more questions and makes things more difficult to prove although inaudible noise plays a factor in the overall system sound, sound-staging, pressure levels and room sonic.


I wish audio companies could afford or would desire to establish third party testing methodologies backed with written opinions by our peers, hence quantifying the results. The larger more financially outfitted companies obviously avoid that type of research and would rather spend their dollars on marketing and product reviews. I also believe audio is too ‘humanly subjective’ for most sciences and/or third-party options.

We were involved in third party testing using temperature as our control factor. In our case mechanical grounding not only reduces noise but heat as well. Temperature reduction is more attractive to science in comparison to sound reproduction. Covid put a long delay on that project.

 

Line item 2: What most listeners and Industry reviewers and speaker designers fail to realize is the magnitude of sound quality that is missing due to the physical speaker-to-stand-to-floor relationship. 

A speaker stand plays the ultimate role in the overall sound performance of any compact monitor. The method in which the speaker is placed or mounted to the stand is extremely important as well. Ten thousand dollars spent on a pair of speakers with a six or seven-hundred dollar set of stands does not make for the best sonic performance from your financial investment.

The majority of speaker-stands in today’s marketplace lacks engineering and purpose other than they are a place to set your speaker on top. Too many variables one of which is my pet peeve… fill the legs with what kind of material and how much fill do I use? You might think the engineers in charge of the design would have done a lot of listening tests and figured that one out by now.

As for the lifestyle issues involving stability and children, we must first come up with a great stand then adapt a secure universal mounting system to hold the speaker without changing the sonic character of the speaker system.


Line item 3: Our platforms contain spikes and are designed to vibrate which is a form of movement. This motion is absolute minimalist. The artifacts caused by motion that a laser might determine are a moot point in comparison to using vibration as a tool to improve the physical operational efficiency of the device.


Increased component operational efficiency is attainable provided the mechanical grounding plane (the platform) transfers resonance at or as close to as possible, the speed of which resonance is being formed.  


The methodology of resonance transfer also works with electronics as these platforms are based on physics, material science and geometry. It does not matter what is placed on them (speakers, electronics, power distribution, compressors, fan motors, etc.) as the design is engineered for function. In addition, this system allows for weight tolerances in the thousands of pounds eliminating those issues.

In music reproduction, everything vibrates (movement) and has high-speed relationships beginning with the throat or musical instrument to the microphone diaphragm to the recording drives to the pre/post-production equipment to the structural environment and finally the human eardrum itself. Mechanical grounding is designed for rapid resonance energy transfer processes hence the timing relationship is formed.

 Vibrations create the REAL PROBLEM and that is RESONANCE.

Resonance is caused by many vibrations where amplitudes of resonance clog all signal pathways – mechanical, electro-mechanical and acoustic. The problem is those initial vibrations contain the dynamics and harmonic layers we seek to hear so one must capture those highly favorable features and avoid resonance buildup and in real time.

How does one manage resonance? Our preferred methodology is to transfer the resonance to the greater sink or mass in the environment.

This is where the isolation group has difficulty explaining their theories as isolation techniques hold resonance within the component or speaker system establishing operational inefficiencies.

Resonance without a rapid evacuation gateway will build and cling to and propagate on all smooth surfaces from transistors to large speaker chassis establishing operational inefficiencies. In essence, the equipment becomes a resonance capacitor – per the Laws of Coulomb.

The difference between a highly effective isolation system and resonance transfer system of near equal financial value is extremely audible and can be blind tested employing multiple listeners. Both isolation and transfer systems provide function, but the sonic results are quite different.


Line item 4 I do not want to stop your construction experiment using maple foundations but will inform you what to expect from this design approach and outcome.

Wood vibrates and establishes a lot of additional audible frequencies. These frequencies will influence everything in your system’s performance from electronics to acoustics. Proof of wood sonics are discussed many times on this forum. For years you read particle board sounds OK, hardened maple sounds better than butcher block, exotic hardwood species sound even better, etc. 

Wood also remains in a constant state of change and movement due to humidity factors so your audible point of sonic reference may also change daily along with the sonics wood produces regardless of mass or thickness.

Bolting the wood sections directly to your speaker will marry the plinth to the chassis so they will react as a single unit. You will increase the chassis mass and therefore alter the sound of your speaker – guaranteed. You may like or dislike the change, but the original speaker designer usually ends up becoming the unhappiest person involved in this experiment.

Then there is the mechanical grounding process where the “spikes” will control the result of the experiment. A poorly designed spike equals poorer performance and that we can attest to after working thirty years in the vibration management field.


A form of acoustic coupling is placing a speaker directly on a floor without separation of any kind between the two planes. The speaker now assumes the floor mass as being part of its design whereas the woofer/s generally overextends to compensate for the added mass. In the case of using a carpet membrane between the two, carpeting generally has rubber or foam in the mix where these primary adsorbent materials greatly limit the speaker’s dynamics and sound quality.

Acoustic coupling is not recommended by hi-fi speaker manufacturers as it results in sonic degradation. The industry needed an answer to this problem so early on, back in the sixties, the easiest and most affordable fix or add on accessory became the nail head spike or rubber footer. Both parts limit sound quality but still remain extremely affordable!

Years ago, prior to flying and mechanical grounding commercial sound systems to the ceiling grids, we stacked the speaker cabinets on the floor or stage so the ports would be parallel stacked or positioned side by side each other hence increasing the sonic output by 1.5dB. The coupled ports reinforced the air pressure exiting the system. This too was referred to as acoustic coupling.

Regards to surface protection discs, discs machined of metal, wood or any material lacking geometry degrades spike performance. We have spent years listening, prototyping and listening again to establish a highly functional Coupling Disc. The design was created to function specifically with our products but is known to increase the sonic of others. I cannot and will not attest to anything other than performances related to our specific products. Coupling Discs appear to be simplistic in cosmetic look but there is more engineering and time spent on development than most of our spike designs. The geometry is used for speed and time matching resonance flows from the spike or platform and energy distribution across the flooring surface.


Too much emphasis is placed on simplistic two-dollar parts that literally drive “High-End Audio” conversations, theorem evaluations and product comparisons in today’s modern market. Think about it?


Thank you for your time,

Robert

Disclaimer #2: This information is not written to increase sales nor are we shilling this site for business purposes despite some members consistently analyzing my participation as being of an advertising nature.

It is most difficult to provide information on a new technical approach opposite that of long believed old school methodologies when the products themselves become the determining factual evidence of proof and function.



Mijosty,

Long winded is my middle name. Anyone who ever spent time on the phone or has met me in person knows this. As not to bicker or argue over points of resonant frequency and amplitudes of resonance continuously forming on “all” vibrating surfaces and hopefully putting us on the same page of understanding, I urge you to review this document.

 http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/CMS/uploads/vibration-and-coulomb-friction-2013_001.pdf

Regards to renderings on testing:

My point was that ‘live environment’ testing results are meaningful only to the designer. I was hoping to pick up more on the studies of driver function, formation from shear waves to compression waves, velocity of various materials and anechoic wave patterns but that would require another half-dozen paragraphs. ⌣

We can perform the same accelerometer testing on your system in our lab that would clearly differ in comparison to your results unless we have the same room sonic environment, the same equipment support systems holding the model, the same racking system holding the test equipment, the same attachments and stand for supporting the calibrated microphone or accelerometer or recording drives and the list goes on. The measurements would greatly differ.


Regards to resonant frequency:

Any resonant frequency can be changed easily. Based on your postings, my guess is your physical model is not providing you the best information due to the cheap spikes and environmental obstructions limiting the performance of your subwoofer.

Changing the resonant point of your test model, say we replace the cheap spikes and put the enclosure on $300 Audio Points or a $500 Platform. The changes in sound quality would improve as would your testing results where you would realize how much further along you are in the process of development.

 Now place the same model on a $1200 platform and you will also notice how much more effective your design is in sonic as well as the differences in measurement. To prove beyond any doubt that you are ahead of expectations, place the same model on a $2,500 platform and that might show you where your inefficiencies are in the design along with advancing the test criterion and more importantly, really focus on the sonic improvements.

By changing the effectiveness of the grounding plane (platform or spikes), the transfer of resonance becomes reality where your book-mentored approach might change as well.


*A subwoofer measurably generates less distortion when it is firmly spiked to the floor. I do not know if this is true for a full range loudspeaker that is crossed to a sub at say 100 Hz.

This is true regardless of speaker size, mass, material science, construction, or crossover points. If you use a higher end spike, there will be much less distortion to begin with.

*Does vibration transferred to a purely electronic device cause audible distortion?

It would take a massive series of vibrations or a poorly designed chassis with a cheap footer system where I do not believe any of those exist in today's marketplace however, any device using manmade power will vibrate. Vibrations (mechanical, electromechanical or airborne) establish resonance and clogging of the signal pathways establishing component operational inefficiency. When the inefficiencies are mechanically grounded and transformed into component operational efficiency, one will hear the difference regardless of tube or transistor design.


*Designing a decent speaker spike is child's play as is making a decent speaker stand. Locking the speaker to the stand is also child's play as long as you don't mind sinking a few screws into the enclosure. Designing and making a subwoofer enclosure that does not shake or resonate is not so easy. Do you have any siggestions?

Yes a few… but first,

My experience with subwoofer driver and cabinet development was spent with the engineering team at McCauley Sound and working in the sound reinforcement business with three highly successful sound companies. I was part of a four person team that designed and manufactured over 300 custom subwoofer enclosures in the days of IASCA Tournaments and have participated in the build of a few championship vehicle systems that toured audio and electronics shows.

We just placed a pair of twin modified 18” subwoofers into our mechanically grounded Energy Room in Madison, WI to see how much pressure level is required in an attempt to acoustically overload the walls, floor and ceiling. Imagine having the feel and dynamic headroom of a live event in a studio setting? Yet the room is capable of hearing every note and decay defining the difference in sound between two different brand names of woodwind or string musical instruments.

http://www.mccauleysound.com/product_overview.cfm?ID=2338 

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8168

I just wanted you to know, we do have some experience in your field of interest.


According to you, developing a "decent" cone is childsplay. Really?

We have witnessed a multitude of “decent” vibration management companies come and go over the years, but few remain past the ten-year mark and by the twenty-fifth year, all of them are no longer in business with exception to maybe two companies.  

Your "decent" speaker stand design that was also defined as child’s play might climb to the level of a boat anchor by our standards.

If the speaker resides on our products using a few screws to attach the speaker to the stand will alter its original sonic - guaranteed.


The point being "decent" does not survive High-End Audio.

Suggestions:

1 There are talented designers that have already surpassed your level of achievement so I would always recommend reaching out to them or gathering information on their products adding to your understanding and level of research.

2 Get the subwoofer off carpeted surfaces and cheap spikes. Hard surfaces will define all that is going on without the absorption of rubber/foam carpet. Place the sub on a neutral grounding plane. Contact some manufacturers to see if they would accommodate you with pricing in order to attain a quality grounding plane for your testing.

3 Concentrate on the sound and forget about the hand touching tests or physically stomping on flooring tests that are totally irrelevant to speaker design and sonic performance. Do not forget as you are adding mass, the product has to be capable of transport and positioning.


Good luck with your future in designing and we hope it earns you a living or a place in the industry or self-gratification if that is what you seek.

Please feel free to phone us, we will always be happy to answer questions or assist in solving anyone’s audio related issues or just talk sound.

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Star Sound



Aus-audio

Never related audio discussions to a food group. 

Word Salad with Low Cal Ranch Dressing that has been in the fridge too long and gone rancid.

Here we call that tater… tater salad!


The statement you are referring to is backed by technology, physics and can easily be proven by ear with your choice of any electronic component, turntable, speaker, tabletop radio or my personal favorite, the vintage plastic boombox - your choice, any brand.

It will even work on your Close & Play...⍢



Gentlemen,

Coulomb friction is a calculated measurement.

By definition: Coulomb friction is a simplified quantification of the friction force that exists between two dry surfaces in contact with each other.

Coulomb's law states that the kinetic friction of bodies in motion is independent of the actual sliding velocity of the bodies.

Why C_____b friction? Because our discovery titled Live-Vibe Technology™ begins with two dry surfaces contacting each other with motion. The fact that Live-Vibe is scalable and is adaptable to other industries plus there are many surfaces contacting each other and are using physical tension to improve performance in many of the product offerings. 

Now add the demand for proof of function by the audio community and you are back to C_____b friction.


As for the “component operational inefficiency” statement relating to product function” defined as a rancid word salad - get used to it. 

The science of tomorrow is about increasing operational efficiency in existing models such as electric power grids, transformer use, energy storage devices, compressors and electric motors that are a few products seeking newer energy conservation methodologies.

Our theorem involving component operational efficiency can also be proven using temperature as the control mechanism. Temperature reduction is much less arguable than the majority of audio’s hypotheses.

Science relates to efficiency, motion and temperature much easier than audio’s real-time-analyzation, flat response, polar patterns and compression wave dispersion, clogging of signal pathways, all of which are too subjective a topic for science, third party testing and product quantification.

Live-Vibe is also being explored for use in other industries outside that of audio, so I truly believe we are onto something here. I am not a physicist, not a mechanical or EE. Those guys do not wish to get involved in audio’s arguments - too subjective for their blood.


You can challenge any portion of a theorem and usually convince anyone the theorem has holes in it, ours being no different. I get edgy when smirks are presented in distaste hence the tater salad rebuttal. It is all I could come up with at the time but then add a glass of high-end single-malt and a great cigar and you might get a meet with Ron White instead ⌣.

Robert

Star Sound



Aus-audio,

You are stuck in the weeds of book mentality. I will follow up on the ‘clogging of signal pathways’ when I get the time to do so.

See this is just plain wrong, or again communicated poorly. There is no need to seek out "earth’s ground", otherwise known as something with high mass. You simple convert it to heat .... the most common form, by far, of vibration control.

No! You are just plain wrong believing the most common form of vibration control delivers the greater results. We seek only the best!

A one cannot control vibration.

B you are exposing yourself to inexperience, in particular the hands-on variety.

You are now discovering the difference a direct coupled approach to vibration management delivers. Conversion to heat is sluggish - at least with the products we have auditioned that rely on this methodology.

We lose the life, the dynamic, the harmonic structures when we listen to products based on heat conversion. We hear softer and rounded tones where we seek the leading-edge dynamic and live experience.


In music there is a timeline. In musical reproduction there are time elements. Beginning with the voice or the musical instrument to the mic diaphragm, to the recording equipment to the playback to the room performance and finally the human ear, music reproduction quality is relative to high-speed.

Everything in the entire musical spectrum is related to speed. Too fast and the note goes sharp too slow, and the note is flat. In classical music, the musicians play a bit behind the note where in rock the musicians play slightly ahead of the note.

Speed in music governs all sounds. Speed defines the highly audible difference between springs and Points (not cheap spikes) and delivers to us the capabilities to produce that leading edge sound everyone seeks.

Example: if we used a different type of steel where the damping factors are greater, the absorption process in the material changes hence so does the performance of the Platform as well as if the brass geometry changes so does the velocity of resonance energy transfer, therefore altering the timing and speed associated with the result, a compressed dynamic performance with shortened decay qualities.

Heat conversion is a ‘slow go’ in comparison to direct coupling. We have tried it both ways and to our ears, high-speed is the audible difference maker.


Perhaps you would like to explain that to capacitor makers whose whole work is to eliminate electromechanical vibration that leads to ... distortion. But maybe you are just communicating poorly.

The reference is an analogy only.. Remember everyone reading is not - NOT an engineer!

However, if the capacitor makers were to examine their designs overall, they would never rely on another entity taking control over their potential performance. If they were to include a mechanical coupling device or mounting system that transfers energy and resonance buildup, their systems would perform at a higher rate of operational efficiency.

We have manufactured mechanical grounding mechanisms for all key parts in an amplifier such as the caps, transformers, outputs, power supplies and including the circuit itself. At full rated output power of 100 watts per channel the amp was quieter and near cold to the human touch. The heat sink became the entire chassis of the amp where we used our Points, not cheap spikes as the exit for resonance flow.

They say no one has reinvented the amplifier in over forty years - this result at the very least took that understanding to a new level of design. It was not the original sonic whatsoever, it was so much more of the original sonic plus more importantly, the musical character instilled by the designer did not change. You should hear what Live-Vibe Technology does for a valve design.


Huh? So is vibration good or bad now?

The initial vibration contains the dynamics and harmonics we seek as listeners. The problems begin when resonance created by vibrations forms on all surfaces large and small establishing component operational inefficiencies.

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Hey? Where did that previous post go? Am i answering a ghost writer?