Query John Elison over on the Vinyl Asylum of AA. He's a Millennia owner.
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Like the Cosmos,it has been improved over time,and represents superb value.
The thing that amuses me,is how so many competitive,not quite as good but similar(less the Vacuum)products command downright Silly/High prices,yet gain good sales.Some cannot approach "any" SOTA design in performance,but we are talking "audio" here,and many folks are jaded,as in "clueless".
A popular German table,that is "dark sounding",has no effective clamping system,and no suspension comes to mind,and it has gained a wide audience.
I'm sure "it" sounds good,and have heard it(looked heavy,but I didn't think it was anything extraordinary,other than looking nice)but I'll guarantee it cannot compete on a head to head basis with a new Millenia or the Cosmos for that matter.Actually I know of a hobbyist who had this popular German design and switched to a new TNT/Rim Drive,because like the Sotas,it smoked the over-priced imposter "big time".....Go figure!
With apology to the OP as i've no prior experience with SOTA and there's no local importer here until a few weeks ago.
I have no problem with Cosmos being a better deck to your ears but i take offence with your commment which implies that those who've chosen the imported turntables with a different approach to vinyl playback (ie.non vac clamping and non suspended) as being "jaded" and "clueless".
Jaspert,if you take offense,then really,you must get a life -:)I was not being literal.
I'M SURE YOU ARE NOT CLUELESS,nor is the vast majority of forum dwellers.
I'm sarcastically implying that the audio industry is full of products that can be bettered for less money,but due to reviews etc. some folks stop listening with the ear,and are affected with their eyes.I think expensive means good,to many folks,and I know one fellow who lives by this credo.
I do hope most folks think about why something does what it does,and thinks about the physics of vinyl replay.Sadly,and I'm entitled to my own opinion,many folks are clueless here.
Worse things have been said on the forum,without someone getting peeved.
Btw,SOTA happens to be a great value,and hits on all the bases regarding a fully developed and mature vinyl replay deck....Alot of big buck stuff does not!!
That's it.Lighten up!
"Over priced and under performing products for the jaded and clueless".
You don't like the Raven table , so you don't like it...
However it's on a rare occasion you ever lash out at anyone person let alone a group....Too much wine the night before?
Your pissed at something.... Money spent on import vs American made ? What is it that you care what people spend their money on? geez
You continued by ripping into Jaspert telling him to get a life, then you turn around and try to smooth it over....real nice Speedy.
Jasper and I have spoken to each other several times in the past via e-mails and let me tell you Jasper is an all around great guy.
How can you not take offence to what you implied?
While this is still fresh, you really have a good opportunity here to point out how clueless some people are in this hobby.
Is there more? Start a new thread or chime in on existing ones.... get it all out.
I have comments on the Millennia and Sota in general.
I too have grown accustomed to the brand, having bought a Star with an electronic flywheel from Robert Becker at a CES show in Chicago too many years ago. I had a platter upgrade about 15 years ago and still use it today.
I bought a Millennia from Kirk and Donna Bodindet, two very fine people, at the 2005 CES show. I have yet to put it into service. It is a departure from the typical Sota design in that it is not a sprung table. The fit and finish is top notch, typical of Sota products, and the price is reasonable when you consider the vacuum feature.
A while back I began building a table and chose the Sota bearing and platter along with their vacuum pump. A year or so ago I decided to cast a 50 lb lead platter to bond to the Sota table. I had two made and also sent the platter from the Millennia back to Sota for the retrofit. I hope to have both platters back sometime soon at which time I'll set the Millennia up and see how it performs. I have no reason to believe it's performance will be less than stellar.
I believe the success that the Bodinets have with their company is due to the lack of greed on their part to follow the ever escalating price spiral seen in many other table designs. That, plus a solid design and reputation for value, make their tables an excellent value. When The Millennia is up and running I'll post an opinion.
Stilty,it amazes me why on Audiogon so many folks get so annoyed when someone attempts to input critical "opinons" about specific products,that they have some contrasting experiences with.
I "never" even mentioned any names!!!......Where do you come off having the credentials to psychoanalyze me?Or my motives!Why should something so dumb,get this far?
Of course,from a ton of what I've seen here,the majority of folks continuously stoke the preferred mfgr of the day,and of course defend their pals who own said products.
It is increasingly obvious that many Forumites get peeved if someone attempts to input an "opinion" about a popular product that has gained some favor with the press, and the owners who shelled out big dollars for it.
OK,I'll walk on egg shells if I want to express an opinion from now on.
Too bad you missed my point,which was in defense of the "hobby" actually.I guess some would rather see my post as negative,rather than look a little deeper.
Basically what I intended to imply(yes,it could have been worded differently,but I NEVER mentioned anyone specifically,so please don't condescend to me,because you "know" an offended person,or have the particular product that I "may" have been alluding to)was that there is frequently something better,for "less money"(this used to be important to many folks)than some high priced,well reviewed "pretty faced/underdeveloped" designs.There are quite a few,actually.
Sorry if that offends,or makes me seem angry.In the future I'll go along with what so popular "here" and kiss up to our favorite dealers and mfgrs,regardless of what they put on the table....
FWIW, I owned a Sota Star Sapphire Series III (with vacuum), which was a product of the original Sota company, for most of the 1990s. Even when I owned it, I had the feeling that the bass response was a little on the "woolly" or muddy side and I could always hear pitch instability on piano notes. However, I could never be sure that the problem was due to the SSIII or to the way the particular LP was mastered. Around 2001, I replaced the SSIII with a Nottingham Analog Hyperspace. Listening to the same LPs on the Notts (with the same tonearm and cartridge in both cases, I might add), I came to believe that the SSIII was indeed to blame for the flaws I had perceived. About a year ago, I moved to a Lenco L75 in a custom wood plinth, still with the same tonearm (Triplanar) and now using a Koetsu Urushi. With the Lenco, bass reproduction and piano rendition took another great leap forward vs the Notts. I realize that the Cosmos and the Millenium are new products that supersede the Star Sapphire. They have a lot of avid fans here, so I assume that the problems I heard with the SSIII have been eliminated (altho it is not obvious to me how this was addressed), but it's something to be aware of. Certainly they are both great looking and apparently well made.
Btw,Stiltskin...I never once said "over priced and under performing products for the jaded and clueless".As you seem to think I had.It seems it is "you" who are attempting to single me out for criticism,and I'll bet I can figure out why!
I mentioned absolutely NO names at all.
Can you point that out if I did,in "those" words?It seems it would complement your attitude towards me to use that against me,but you misquoted me!
Any reason why you did so?I'd always thought you to be a pretty nice fellow,so surely you must have some hidden agenda(anger?defense of a friend?a product you thought I might have alluded to?just for the hell of it?).
Being "clueless"(since that seemed to be a catalyst here)does not need to be taken as an insult,and in my case it was meant in sarcasm,because many folks(and it is perfectly fine,btw)are unaware of alternative products,which happen to cost less.I'm one of them!!This "last" sentance was my exact point,and YES,I should have worded it differently.But I'm too angry-:)
"Still",best to you,and let's not get carried away,like I appear to be doing.Hmm,I DO have to get a life myself-:)
Stiltskin I'm happy you express that emotion.I admit to being over the top at times,but honestly my comment was a generalization.Why should I come under attack whem I'm not "specifically" singling anyone out?OK,I can see how "that" can happen-:)
I do happen to know some folks who think more money "always" means better.I was underhandedly speaking to them.You're not wrong to raise an eyebrow,but do you want everything on Audiogon to be strictly "Vanilla" La-de-da?
Anyway,I've always liked you,and was not happy defending my comments in a not very nice way,towards you...BUT...don't change!!This stuff is what makes this forum interesting....
In between the too frequent pandering to the dealers and mfgrs.....(that was meant in jest)
Sorry,I had to get that "generalization" in.
Best to you always...and I mean that!!
Good to see you back on audiogon. All we need is Raul to have a real meaty discussion :-)
BTW, I bought my TW Raven as it is one of the the few tables that allows multiple arm's. My VPI HRX and LP12 still play wonderful music as well. And my Aussie Caliburn table was too cheap!!
Federer has a real tough match tonight against Rafa in the Aussie Open. The semi between Rafa and Verdasco was probably the best pure baseline hitting I have ever seen.
Yo Downunder,nice to hear from ya!!I'm looking forward to the Super Bowl,but actually I'm more excited about the Aussie Final.
I need to wake up early Sunday,but it'll be worth it.
PLEEEEASE,don't get excited about my sensationalizing anything,and who can say for sure which table I was alluding to anyway.I'd still take A Raven in a NY minute,but the Sota stuff is alot less expensive,and my point was about "those" products being worthy(admittedly I said it in a roundabout way).That's it!!
I kinda forgot that this is Audiogon.
Don't want to add too much noise to the thread .
I just bought the said German turntable recently and it's a major purchase for me, biggest in fact so there was some emotion invested in the decision. I obviously took your earlier bracketed words to heart and reacted as i did.
I do have to agree with some of your points regarding the element of hype with some new products on forums or publishing but that's nothing new i guess.
Despite what you said, i would like to think i have a life off the forum as i was busy with my young family and doing other non hi-fi things today.