Sonus Faber vs Wilson

Congradulations. That would have been my choice as well. I run Amati, Ref 6SE, and Ref 160m or 160s. 

And oh god…. I did upgrade to the Rossini Apex and got the clock..!
 

help…!

So…..it’s been well over a year since posting about this lovely quandary.  My gorgeous Serafino’s are now being driven by an Audio Research 160s with Nordost Try 2 Speaker wires, a new Ethernet switch and Ansuz power distribution. I’m sitting in my chair listening now…. 

Sonus Faber is about to release the new Amati… Joseph Audio has a gorgeous floor stander and then there are those DAW’s….

Hopefully my dealer AudioSalon will get a pair of Pearl Graphine’s soon for me to listen to.

Ain’t this fun…?

I've also visited John at the Biltmore.  Compared Focal, Sonus faber Nova III (one woofer), and the Wilson Sabrinas (not SabrinaX).  He used the BIG Gryphon amplifier.  I liked the Focal the least.  It took a lot of listening to determine the Sabrinas were just a little better than the Nova III's....but interior designer girlfriend nixed the Wilsons as "too ugly."  I think the Nova V's would likely have bested the Sabrinas, but he didn't have them available.

My opinion, FWIW, is keep the Serafinos and enjoy their excellent sound.  It is easy to get into the "better speaker" quandary, and (again, FWIW, and from 50 years having stereos, and owned a store)) you will likely never obtain the "best" speaker in small speaker increments.  If you were to make a big leap in price, you might get stuff that is better than the Wilson Sashas or Serafinos, but then the itch will hit again...  At some point, it's worth just staying with good stuff and listening to music rather than to the equipment; I think you'll get the most enjoyment.

tonywinga,

You have a really nice system and room BTW. I have no complaint with Wilson really other than the cost. 
One more thing to try before throwing cash at the system. If you have the ability to highpass the subs and cut the lows out of the mains it will make a huge difference. Running the subs at around 60hz (right where your bass driver rolls off and the passive radiator picks up) will really elevate the bass (no pun intended) and the whole system. 
Subs are just so good these days might as well let them do their thing. At 60hz they will blend well. At 80hz I find I can hear them and at 40hz and less the system as a whole is not near as good. That has been my experience in a few different rooms with the same system. 
Anyway, something like the JL Audio CR-1 would add the ability if your system lacks a high-pass.  If you end up using a higher crossover you might want to pull the subs a little closer to the mains. If you keep the face of the driver less than 39” away from the front wall you should still be good at 60hz and less for room nodes based on the 1/4 wave. 

The subs integrated perfectly into my system.  I have to either turn them off or put my hand in front of the cones to tell if they are working.  And I agree with you that once you experience that last octave down to 20 Hz it is hard to give it up.  I have one song, a Choir song with a large bass drum.  When the bass drum is struck, the power of that drum is intoxicating.  The subs and the Thiels working together make moments like that possible.  But I wonder how it would sound on the Wilsons...

Hi James633- I actually have subs in my room.  I put them near the corners behind the main speakers.  After hearing the Wilson Alexia 2's for the first time, I came back and "tuned" the subs to the room better using what I heard at the store.  I phased the subs based on their relative position to the main speakers.  I did some math using 30 Hz as the reference point and came up with a phase angle of 29 degrees.  I think I'm more lucky than smart but after some experimenting, 29 degrees phase angle dialed into the subs seemed to be where the bass really popped.  I also have the subs roll off starting at 34 Hz so they do not interfere with the Thiels.  I don't think the subs are quite as fast as the Thiels but they do a great job supporting that last half octave down below 20 Hz.  And I do sit 10 feet from the speakers.  
Then, just recently I added a really expensive power conditioner to my system (the front end).  One advantage- the highs improved dramatically becoming so smooth now- even digital highs are creamy smooth now.  So that is my dilemma.  How much sound improvement will I really gain with such a large expenditure to acquire the Wilson's?  The clarity of the bass is still not quite there to match the Wilson's but it is close, real close.  I have one CD with some strong bass (Stanley Clarke) that I used as a reference.  One CD to make a large purchasing decision.
Hearing different outstanding systems is always a good thing, especially when It helps us to see where our own system's deficiencies lie.  I gained a lot of ground but I still am fighting that bug in me to get new speakers.

tonywinga,

I once almost went from Thiel 2.4s to Wilson Sophia 3 for the improved bass. I ended up buying two subs and high passing them at 60hz and have surprisingly been happy. My system is a bit upside down now with my speakers only making up 25% of my system cost but you know how it goes lol….
The wilson are fine but I lost interest when the Sophia turned into the Yvette and went up $10k. But honesty even if I had the Sophia’s I would want to run subs with them. Once you have true 20hz bass you can’t go back. 
Imo mid size well designed speakers (Sopra 2, Olympica iii, 228be, Thiel 3.7 etc) with subs give these large very expensive speakers a run for their money. In reality mid sized speakers with subs are often better as you can tune the bass to the room. Once you run subs it is hard not to question the price of these large speakers unless you truly have a large room and sit far away. If you have a large room but sit within 10’ then it is irrelevant again. 

I owned Wilson and SF.  My wife hated the looks of the Wilson speakers.  I had the SF Amati Tradition Homage speakers that I picked over the Alexx 1.  I thought they sounded better.  I also thought the SF speakers looked really good to go along with the sound.  My wife still disagreed.  Now I have Viking Acoustic Grande Voix Dual Horn speakers which the wife loves and everyone who comes into my house thinks they are an art piece.  A happy wife is a happy life and the Viking Speakers blows away the Wilson and SF's by a long shot.  

Tonywinga I don't think it is unusual that you are drawn to the Vandersteen's.  The Thiel's are time and phase correct like the Vandersteen's.  That turns out to be a big deal for me.  I put Vandersteen Quatros in my space a year ago and all I do now is shop for vinyl as I am so happy with my system.  You say the XTRMs cost..., but everyone looks at the Kento as the baby 7.  I am sure Atlanta will be happy to show them to you.  The last time I was in Atlanta they ran them with the Vandersteen M5-HP amps and the ARC front end.  It was heaven.  The combo is about the same cost as the Alexia's if I remember correctly.  I thought it may be something fun to hear on the next visit. 

I haven't heard the Sonus Faber line in a couple of decades.  The ones I heard some time ago sounded really good to me.  However, I have been to my new favorite store in Atlanta three times this past year with my eye on a pair of Wilson speakers to replace my Thiel CS6's.  I dragged a case of records and CDs to the store a month ago and spent a day critically listening to the Alexia 2's.  They even put ARC preamps (phono too) in the room to more closely match my system at home.  I love the sound of these Wilsons.  I'm vacillating only because the Thiels come close lacking mainly the very clear strong bass of the Wilsons.  I was also waiting to buy until I installed a wood floor in my listening room.  Then two weeks ago I heard the new Vandersteen Model 7 XTRM speakers at the same store.  They sound fantastic.  Oh but the cost...

Depends if you prefer a design classic or glorified cigar box.

I'm sure we all can relate. Why not enjoy what you currently have awhile? It usually takes me 9 months to a year before the shine starts wearing off a new pair of speakers and resale value isn't going to change in that time.

Try Focal's curvaceous Utopia range.
They are so much easier on the eye than the ugly, masculine Wilsons. More musical as well.

@jjss49 

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Very true… actually on some components also… particularly on source. I chose carefully on the CD player I bought in the past. Too resolving and you can have many recordings sound bad because the high end is tuned up to catch every detail and it passes on distortion and gets hard, bright, and looses musicality. 

no doubt the speakers are the determining factor in a system's ability to resolve upstream changes made... there is a thread lingering about how and where to prioritize gear in system building - ultimately if the speakers can't play the music in a way that let's us hear the differences, all upstream efforts exist only in theory

having said this, the most resolving system, the most resolving speakers, are not necessarily the path to sonic happiness and satisfaction...

@steakster 


.

Yep, the better the system the more any change matters. Really high resolving speaker enhance this.

I understand the appeal of Wilson. I have heard them over decades and still have the WAMM audition etched in my mind. The holographic imagery. I was overwhelmed and appreciated the sound, but at the same time, said that is not the sound I want to live with. It is wonderful and if I could have three fantastic systems, one would be Wilson based.

About ten years ago I got season tickets to the symphony, 7th row center now and subconsciously started moving from my mainstay of ribbon speakers to Sonus, then up the Sonus line. Currently Sonus Amati Traditional. I don’t think my migration to Sonus was unconnected to having constant exposure to live acoustical concerts. I found that instead of optimizing one kind of music at the expense of others, all improved as I moved to Sonus and up to higher levels of their products. I have nothing bad to say about Wilson, they are fantastic speakers. But for me with the right electronics Sonus better gets the gestalt right and true musical nature of the music they are reproducing. To me.

Well, GG107, I’d say your wife’s opinion only shows that the tastes (and ears) of musicians are as varied as they are for everyone else. There are certainly plenty of musicians who have a different opinion about Wilson speakers and find them to be wonderful. As an amateur musician myself, I also know that the perception of the music is very different from the stage, and behind your own instrument, than it is from several rows out in the audience. Which is one of the reasons I often ask friends to play the Flamenco guitar I had built by a Luthier several years ago - it sounds very different from across the room than it does when I’m playing it.

I’d also point out that Peter McGrath of Wilson audio is a highly respected recording engineer (including of Classical music), and certainly doesn’t share your wife’s opinion.

Your wife’s opinion is certainly valid - for her and perhaps you. But to suggest that those of us that don’t share that opinion are unfamiliar with the sound of live performances is, in fact, rather offensive. It’s simply a matter of different tastes.

My wife and I also auditioned speakers at the OP dealer's showroom at the Biltmore earlier this year.  My wife is an experienced classical musician -- a soloist who has performed with some of the world's greatest orchestras, has made numerous recordings, and is intimately familiar with the acoustics of live music, and with recording studios.  

We heard Sonus fabers, Focals, and Wilsons, all with quality sources (DCS) preamp, and amps.  

My wife hated the Wilsons, finding them utterly artificial.  We wound up purchasing Sonus fabers, though from a different dealer.

I have to wonder whether audiophiles who prefer the Wilson sound are actually deeply familiar with the sound of live, unamplified classical or jazz music.  When you spend years performing and/or listening to live, unamplified music of some complexity and richness, speakers like the Wilsons we heard don't make a good impression.  They don't sound natural, organic, or musical -- they sound "hi-fi."

I realize there are many passionate adherents of Wilson speakers, and I'm not attempting to offend.  I love rock as well as classical, and I can understand how Wilsons, and perhaps similar speakers, can do a good job with music that is amplified and was not created primarily for live performance.  

I've run into a similar phenomenon in shopping for a new car recently -- many of the optional audio systems seem designed or optimized for rock or rap music, and perform poorly with classical music, particularly orchestral and operatic.

Years ago I installed an expensive system in a customers house - not an audio system.  i went over all the details and exactly what he could expect.  everything went well until about 2 months later he called me and said that he needs to move one of the units that went on his roof.  Apparently, from just the right angle in the kitchen if you looked up through the skylite you could see a small portion of the equipment.  I told him we put it was exactly as described and that it would involve crane work and multiple trades to move it even a foot. He fully understood and expected to pay. I still remember his response: " it's cheaper than probate"  so is it cheaper than probate?

I'm sure you made the right choice to keep the SF.  I own the previous Sasha speaker (series 2), which I traded in original Sabrina's for to get a demo pair.  While the Sasha DAW is certainly a great speaker, particularly when you get to this level it really is a matter of personal preference.

What I think you might consider is to upgrade your dCS Bartok to the Rossini DAC (and maybe even getting the Rossini Master Clock as well).  The Bartok is certainly a great DAC and I was considering it when I upgraded my digital front end a couple months ago.  But after doing a side by side comparison of the Bartok and Rossini in my home system, and hearing from a dCS representative on an online forum that there are no current plans to upgrade the Bartok mapping algorithms, the Rossini is a significant step up in sound quality.

Of course another alternative would be to keep the Bartok but add the Rossini Master Clock to it.  From what I've read, that still won't quite equal the Rossini in SQ but it will certainly be closer.

From what you said in your original post, you are there- good sound, great look.  It’s new. Enjoy it. Other systems might sound better, look better. But, remember, your system is damn good. All you have to do is, like Raul say’s, Enjoy the Music!

Which is more important to you, looks or sound?

I have always held sound to be paramount, and pursued appearance only if I happened to be able to get a speaker that also looked nice.

I really like the Sonus products - they are stunning in the looks department and very good sonically. 

But I own Wilsons (and older larger model than the Sashas (Maxx) , which, BTW, I drive with a 70 wpc tube amp.  Don't know how easy a load the Sashas are.

Were I going for looks I'd probably look at Avalons, though.

@keithr   Keith, your fiance may have a point if they are going to be center of your main living room. OTOH, the Sasha DAW's or the smaller Sabrina X's can be perhaps 'blended' into the space with a choice of color. I guess I am lucky, I don't have to worry about these things, as the dedicated room is rarely visited by the better half. 

I like Wilsons a lot but 2 things mentioned in a few answers.
1. Wilsons are not an easy load. The newer ones are better but they still drop to 2 ohms or lower at spots and are very reactive. But good amps designed for these characteristics will work very well.
2. Wilsons like big rooms. But they can be set up to be excellent in small rooms. I've heard Michael Fremer's Wilson XVX speakers, much bigger than the Sasha and they were excellent in a small room, so small that almost everyone would look at it and foolishly not even try the speakers there.

All I can say is you must be filthy rich.

My wife would kick me out of the house if I purchased a pair Wilson's.

I also know your dealer.  And those speakers.  They are an easy load so your amplifier will love them.  Getting back to John Ic... if he sets the Sasha's up for you, which of course he will, you will be forever glad you made the change.  As long as your bride is in for the trip.  As to his listening space, it's fine but small, a larger, better designed room would sound even better.  Suggest you take your wife over, have lunch, meet John and let her make the final decision after seeing and hearing the Sashas.  Happy hunting.

OP, Having a Gryphon amp and SF Strads at home, I can see why your considering Wilsons upfront and less dark sound, but I have a suggestion. 
Go listen to Gryphon Pantheons. I heard them last week with Essence stereo amp and was frankly blown away by the better mids and clearer highs and same bass. 

With respects to how long you’ve had your SF speakers, i can for sure say that IF you get those Wilsons, you will sooner or later have next itch, what happens with a separate power amp. No matter how nice you think the Gryphon is, a separate power/ pre will get you to next step. I have been in this situation myself. It just never ends. Also, a system is so room dependant so there is no way you can compare those speakers without swapping them back and forth in same environment. Have you ever visited a true state of the art room acoustic center? I say you will be utterly amazed when you realize what room acoustics do.
What kills most of the overall sound is room nodes (bass peaks and dips).
These are also not solved with the typical room acoustic devices (bass nodes).
If you measure, you’ll have the facts clear. So again, consider listening in your room and also consider if you possibly will ask for a new power/pre amp in a few years.

I personally quit all hifi for years and years because i got OCD. Nothing mattered but the system and it’s updates. 10 years later i still pay for stuff i don’t own (sold it all).
To reroute back to you, who you are will determine how you behave with this hobby. 18K is alot just to change speakers in less than ½ year.

@jomonhifi

hiding the gryphon

pretty hard to do given it's cooling requirements

I started this journey in March of this year with a $5000 budget and…well….

I can relate.  I started with budgets of $3k preamp/amp and $5k speakers.  I ended up paying $18k Constellation Inspiration preamp/amp (TAS Top 50 Bargains)  and am waiting for some funds for my $25k Magico A5 speakers (sonics competes with their $40k S5mkII) and cables.  Initially I told my wife my total spending will be $60k for my entire analog/digital chain, well you know the rest of the story....and counting....

I’ve heard those Sashas at that Florida dealer. I think he was running a Bartoc pre direct through to an ARC 160. I was totally impressed with the way ARC responded with the Wilsons.  I was actually thinking of going the Sonus Faber Amati Tradition direction until I heard the Sasha DAW’s. The SF is a gorgeous design but  I chose the Sashas and I’m glad I did. They look fabulous with my decor. I even
bought a couch to match the speakers (desert silver). 
 The Wilson’s are several steps above the SF’s in sound and neutrality  and IMO the Gryphon is a better match w Wilson for slam and bass response. You’ll need to have a dealer setup bc the Wilson’s are not easy to get right but once you do, it’s over. 

The gryphon doubles wattage down to 2 ohms ,wilsons are a easy load 
the Gryphon can handle even maggi with ease.

The Wilsons do look "robotic".    They don't look like furniture that gives a room that warm comfortable feeling.     I can't imagine how they'd score on the  Wife Acceptance Factor test.    Keep the wife and the SF.

Davey- my fiancé never complained about any speaker appearance until we auditioned Wilsons. Ugly robots according to her. In any color. 

A friend of mine who lives in Miami visited the same dealer and listened to the same system.  He said it was the best he's heard but like a previous poster mentioned, his room is set-up perfectly and pretty sure you won't get near the same results.  You have some very nice speakers and would keep the SF. 

jomonhifi OP
Gryphon Diablo 300 ❤️❤️

Glad you love it, very hard to better it, for speakers as I said before with that amp.
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2220137

Cheers George

I have Sasha’s driven by Rowland - bliss.

One quick additional point...why are so many thinking the Wilsons are ugly? I think they look great, plus you can pick a number of different colors to match your decor. The SF's, which all have a very nice look ( i own a pair) are all of the 'traditional' style look, favored by the Italians. The Wilsons are a lot more contemporary looking IMHO. 

I started this journey in March of this year with a $5000 budget and…well….

Mcintosh MA252 - SF Sonetto 8’s - BluSound

Mcintosh MA352 - SF Olympica Nova 3’s

Gryphon Diablo 120

ARC Ref 75SE (didn’t fit - sounded lovely)

Gryphon Diablo 300 ❤️❤️

SF Serafino Traditions & Aurender A10

DCS Bartok 

Assorted thousands in wires and connectors..

The financial hit keeps on hitting…and…well…I’m having a blast…!

I had no idea it could all sound so lovely… it’s bringing me tremendous joy and I just love tinkering with it all.

There is no correct answer to the question: It seems to me the Wilsons should have been on your list of speakers to consider before purchasing the SF's. Now, if you change, you will take a big financial hit & you will own ugly but great sounding speakers. Maybe, you need a dedicated room where the Wilsons are hidden from view.

Hello,
At an eighteen thousand dollar upgrade the salesman brings them to your house for a demo. A two week demo. Everything goes OK you work out a deal for the demoed speakers or order the pair and color you want. See if the salesman will let you keep one of the speakers until your speakers come in. Demo, Demo, and Demo in your home. This way you can see if you can live with them. 

Some speakers I think look great and sound great:

Bayz
Borresen
Marten

Less good looks but great sound:
Vimberg
Steinberg
Verity
Raidho

I think you should keep the SF for a year or two and spend the time thinking about what you want long term. Maybe go and listen to other speakers in the same price range as the Wilsons. Like Magico, Focal, Von Schweikert, MBL, etc. You may like both their sound and their looks.

jomonhifi OP
Gryphon Diablo 300.

Wonderful amp.
 That’s defiantly a keeper, and will drive either the Sonus Faber vs Wilson to their best.
The sound of the Gryphon is Class-A type of sound, which to me is prefect. But some say it can sound a "little" dark, I think it’s because it’s not in your face like a Class- A/B and D can sound.

And that makes me say it will be a little more suited to the Wilson, as the Sonus Faber sound is also said to be a "little" dark.

Cheers George

The Wilsons are far easier on the eyes in my book. Only 3 steps? Boxed up, a simple hand truck will do. To get them to your steps, rent a box van/ truck with a Tommy gate from your local by the day truck rental company and call it done. 

Audioman 58 the monitor audio platinum 300 will walk all over the Wilson Sabrina's that's a joke if you think Wilson is better than platinum. But that's your opinion you should get yours check though LOL

Keep the speakers and try silversmith fidelium cables they are the best cables on the market at any price right now they're $1,195 US for an 8-ft pair and they bested Greg Weaver's $18,000 speaker cable and that's his new reference now. They're coming out with interconnects as well too but anything's OCC single crystal is very good as well.