following this discussion for some time now i have the following comment to make: i own gm's and have experimented with various amplification tube as well as solid state. i am getting wonderful results with the asr emitter exclusive- gm combination. the highs are silky smooth, the imaging is terrific. for below 50hz reproduction i use a rel b3 subwoofer through the hi out of the asr emitter. this is the best combination i have found so far. |
Semi,
thank you. Very interesting.
You are not alone in singing the praises of Tidal. There must be something to the speakers, but the cost is prohibitive, as you note. |
some of my old favorites:
Acoustic Energy AE1 Signature, lovely midrange and imaging
Dynaudio Confidence 5, lovely detail and midrange, one of the best bass defintion
Sonus Faber Amati Homage, lovely and airy top end couple with very organic midrange
Sonus Faber Extrema, lovely dynamic and midrange
Usher BE-718, just lovely especially for the price
currently own:
Aerial 20T, still experimenting with amplification but they have serious potential. top end is to die for
Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento, sweet/delicate/airy high
some worthy mention that impressed the hack out of me during audition:
Analysis, planar speaker like Apogee
Tidal Acoustic, discovered them 3 years ago, almost bought the Piano Diacera but very high price tag
Usher BE-10/20, one of the best transient and leading edge attack I ever heard, a bargain
Marten Coltrane, incredible speed and resolution
many big names didn't impress like they should, could be the room or upstream components. |
Daveyf
unfortunately this review is not available on line.
Drop me pm I will email a copy. |
Milimetr, could you post the link to the review that you are referring to
with the D28/2 information. |
Semi how abot pictures where claimed Esotar has sticker D28/2 (confirmed in one review) and claimed scan speak ring radiator with different centrer pin and magnet system looking the same as in Vifa?
Is your information based on reviews or other sources? |
Semi,
you mention owning 30 speakers in the past 20 years. Any highlights or standouts based on your personal experience ? |
Esotar is a dated design from 30 years ago, so much so Dynaudio updated it to keep up with the competition when Evidence was introduced and still it can't compete with Scanspeak Ring Radiator or other newer technology. Just look around, are there any manufactures using Esotar to design their state of the art speakers now?
Lots of ferrofluid to cool the driver is a good thing for professional monitoring where they play 100+ db all day, for audiophile application where micro/macro detail, transparency, and other factors are equally or more important than just high power handling, Esotar falls short.
I have owned 30+ pairs of speakers in the past 20 years, I sure listened with my ears, and now I also learned to listen with my brain too. Something that sounds good but far from truth DOES NOT equal to good sound.
And yes, GH uses Esotar and GM use the top end Ring Radiator, not the cheap Vifa tweeter. |
At the moment I found as follow:
- my Memento has the same center pin inside tweeter as pictured,
- Amati Anniversario tweeter and Auditor M has the same center pin as Guarneri Memento but Auditor M has different front bafle,
- in Italian review from 2006 I found confirmation that old Guarneri Homage uses Dynaudio D28 tweeter,
- in the same review they claim that Guarneri Memento is ring radiator from Scan-Speak. |
"A 25mm ring radiator tweeter with dual toroidal wave developed directly from that in the Stradivari, it's identical to one in the Amati Anniversario."
Ken Kessler's review at: http://hometheaterreview[dot]com/sonus-faber-guarneri-memento-speakers-reviewed/ |
Elviukai, I think that you may be confused regarding the tweeters that SF uses in its various products. SF has for many years had their various tweeters modified by the different manufacturers to SF's spec's. This scheme has been used by numerous manufacturers to 'customize' their products as well, thereby making generalization on identification difficult.
I do not think that you can make such generalizations in regards to the GM's vs.
the Auditor M's tweeters or other speaker drivers in their line. For example, you originally brought up the idea that the GH's tweeter is NOT an Esotar because according to you it doesn't look like any Esotar you are familiar with. While that may be true, I have talked since my last post, to other SF owners and my SF dealer, they say that it has been known from the beginning that the SF GH tweeter is a customized tweeter made by Dynaudio especially for SF and the GH in particular. Nonetheless, the consensus is that it is a modified Esotar in the GH.
I am still going to see if SF will confirm this, however, let's not jump to conclusions with the drivers and their design in the SF line.
BTW, I also would like to see this thread veer back to the original question of GH vs GM and NOT a discussion on the various types of tweets in the SF line, just IMHO. |
I looked at both pictures, I would say theese absolutely diferent tweeter. picture which you are refering to Guarneri memento tweeter is the same as Auditor M (vifa XT)- the only diference is front flange where auditor M have plastic one coated with some soft rubber paint(older auditor NOT M had simple plastic) and back magnet closing- auditor M made from plastic and this one with wood.
another pictuare you are refering to stradivari is based scan speak 70000 series - i see that neodymium magnet and clasic pin. its much faster and dynamic tweeter than first one.
i see why auditor M and Memento sounds similar to some people. I think to guarneri memento owners its quite a dissapoinment to see same tweeter as auditor M(i hoped that all homage series have same 7000 series ring radiator based tweeter)- and backward as owner of auditor M in bedroom system I am glad to know that my auditor M uses basicaly the same tweeter as guarneri. |
Guessing is good and here are the pictures of Stradivari tweeter:
http://www.audiostereo.pl/zalaczniki/1704187_2.jpg
and Guarneri Memento tweeter:
http://www.audiostereo.pl/zalaczniki/1704187_1.jpg
You can easily see how different is the tweeter from standard ring radiator. Front bafle is diferently shaped, magnet is double sized and there is acustical wood chamber. |
""""07-24-10: Milimetr
There is one more interesting thing - so far I thought that Stradivari Homage, Amati Anniversario and Guarneri Memento uses the same modified Scan Speak ring radiator. I have seen pictures of Stradivari tweeter ang Guarneri Memento tweeter and back of both speakers differ."""
Milimeter- probably it because diferent high pass transfer function- tweeter guarneri M would benefit from less pronuonced Fs peak(more compression and higher comliance), thus chamber could be diferent size , stuffed diferently- adjusted for better high pass function. amati aniversario can have same or very similar as stradivari, as thei transfer function similar. but this is only quess. |
Milimeter, Ken Kessler in his review states (from memory) that the tweeter is shared between Amati Anniversario and Memento, and is a modified version of the tweeter used in Stradivari. |
There is one more interesting thing - so far I thought that Stradivari Homage, Amati Anniversario and Guarneri Memento uses the same modified Scan Speak ring radiator. I have seen pictures of Stradivari tweeter ang Guarneri Memento tweeter and back of both speakers differ. |
I am one of the "unfortunate" ones who owns the GMs. That was said with tongue in cheek as I hardly consider myself unfortunate to own those musical gems! Never heard the GHs and so am not in a position to pick sides. Nor do I want to do so. Absolutely agree with Pinkus that the GMs benefit from a very stout SS amp. Mine sound superb with my Accuphase amp. The right tube amp can also work wonders with the GMs. I have heard the GMs driven with the top of the line Shindo monoblocks, and the sound was absolutely sublime. They also sound superb with my Luxman MQ-88, the tube amp I use in my reference system from October through May. |
Milimeter and Elviukai, it's true that SF did some minor changes to the GH's as time went by; I think mostly in the cabinet construction however.
My pair are Anno2004, and were according to my dealer the last pair imported into the US, the Tweet does not look like an Esotec, But??
It is interesting to note that over the appx. 14+ year production run of these speakers that they have always been said to utilize the Esotar. I looked back at the old review by Martin Colloms and he specifically states that the driver for the tweet is a modd'ed Esotar. The same comment used by Michael Fremer and many many others in print. If you look at all the chat on the Audio Asylum pages about these speakers, numerous posters over the years refer to the driver as the Esotar. Could they all be wrong? I guess it's possible, BUT like Brianmgrarcom suggests, maybe a call to SF might be in order. I think I will try that to maybe clarify once and for all this issue. |
Lets please move on. It is settled. Guarner H is better than Guarneri M. Daveyf's audiophile friends have confirmed it :-)
To those unfortunate ones who own the Guarneri M, I only have this bit of personal advice from my own experience. Make sure you listen to the speaker with a very stout SS amplifier. Otherwise, you might not be getting the full measure of this speaker. |
Can't a simple email to Sonus Faber, or the US Dist., answer this question? |
yes it looked exactly the same as mine guarneri homage. I mentioned stick only for reference. no matter is there stick,or no stick, or sonus faber put stick with pamela anderson or mussolinni- that is NOT how we should recognize driver. its build parameters says all- first esotar versions no matter by which manufacturer its used- sonus faber, merlin, eaglestoneworks, unicef, NASA- the most common thing in esotar 1 is magnet size- esotar magnet size is 110mm , while esotec is smaller. that is MAIN reason when we can or can not say driver belong to one or other basic model produced by Dynaudio. I am not sure why I have been atacked-I am not saying anything bad(or good) about this speaker performance or build quality. all I say is that guarneri homage used esotec driver. at the same time i had and still have extreemas and amators mk1- they both had 110mm magnet size and definately IS one of esotar versions. that fact does not tells anything about these speakers performance either. just raw fact. why its so hard to face it? I would not publish any info which could bring missinformation to our audiogon members comunity. Anyway, sorry. I just wanted to help. now I see I shouldnt did that.
|
BTW This picture was taken in Sonus Faber factory. I have also two pictures of older GH tweeters (without a sticker) and these tweeters looks exactly the same. |
I have heard that in 2004 GH had modification. Maybe earlier models used Esotar and later Esotec? |
To follow up my post, look here:http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/oxid.php/tpl//lang/1/cl/alist/cnid/eb642232681286cf0.79190334
I think one can clearly see from the face of the driver that the tweet is the D330 Esotar and NOT the D28. |
Milimetr, that's an interesting picture. For some reason my speakers don't have this sticker on the drivers; Today I took a flex mirror and looked at the tweet. Mine has nothing on it at all. Perhaps your picture is of a replacement driver that someone ordered? IMHO virtually impossible to tell exactly which driver this is from this picture,except we know it is from Dynaudio and someone attached the maple rear piece. Assuming of course that the sticker belongs on that driver. |
look here:
www [dot] audiostereo.pl/zalaczniki/1704187_3 [dot] jpg |
Elviukai, I thought my answer to you on the SF GH review thread that I wrote was clear! In addition this is what MF said in the SFGM review that was done in August of '09 in Stereophile...quote:"More important, the original Guarneri Homage, fitted with a custom-designed 6" Scan-Speak( ok, he's wrong about the woofer...it's a Audiotechnology woofer, we all make mistakes, BUT he didn't make two this time) woofer and custom Dynaudio Esotar tweeter, received rave reviews across the board for both its measured and its musical performance. But its high price ($9400/pair) and limited availability put it in the hands of only a lucky few around the world."
BTW, it says nowhere on my speakers anything to do with D28/2, your memory must be mistaken. SInce I currently own these speakers I am NOT relying on any memory! ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE MISTAKEN WITH REGARDS TO THIS ISSUE. |
because I had this speaker, i trust my eyers and many ears expierence with speakers technical stuff. its using dynaudio d28/2 marked" dynaudio d28/2 SF GH"
on the back it have glued rounded wood chamber, not sue about wood but it is white, could be maple. neither magnet size or internal gap,pole piece structure indicates that it belongs to esotar t330d family(which my extreema and electa amator mk1 have) or esotar 2 neodymium family if you refering to esotar name only.
its very close to stock dynaudio esotec d28/2 tweeter same magnet, dome. just aded back wawe damping,wood chamber and diferent front plate atached.
maybe peace now? |
Just an outside viewer of this thread, but Elviukai, please enlighten us to as how you know this for fact. As you say, we can't simply trust everything we read. |
guys I do not want to interrupt your comunication on esotar qualities or sonus faber speakers , but what on earth said to you that guarnery homage using dynaudio esotar(modified or not)? because its not true. guarneri homage DO NOT use dynaudio esotar in any of its nature. I know that personaly and can you assure 100% that fact. listenig nd trusting for internet information is realy like lotery.someone said fact and others repeats, so information gets missunderstanding for people.
So both of you are corect (side claiming that esotar is bad sounding, and side that guarneri homage is good sounding- there is no fundamental conflict betweet theese two statements) so peace. |
Semi, you miss the point about the GH's vs the GM's. The GH's certainly do use the Esotar driver, no they don't use various hard domes or ribbons which you imply are better designs; BUT then neither does the GM! The GM uses a ring radiator sourced from Scanspeak, which IMHO and that of many many others is TOTALLY inferior to the Esotar.
Why would I want to read anything about drivers when I can use my ears to determine what I feel recreates the best sound? It has become VERY clear to me that you are one of those 'philes who buy equipment based on written reviews and nothing else; next time try using your ears instead. I suspect you may come to an enlightenment. |
Daveyf,
I do try as many piece of gears as I can just to learn each and everyone's strength and weakness. I only keep what I like, the beauty of Audiogon is I can afford to try more gears w/o losing much money and only keep what I like. and yes, I like GM and therefore I decided to keep them. like buying stock, I learn to not marrying to your stereo equipments and use your ears to decide what to keep.
I suggest you do a bit more reading on the pro and con of Dynaudio Esotar, even call some speaker designers and chat with them including those who do not use Esotar. keep in mind there are no perfect drivers, but some are better than others.
reason why drivers are so important in speaker design, it's like the ingredient of a main course and you can't expect to make beef taste like chicken. I almost want to say I can successfully identify Dynaudio speaker blinded folded, afterall I have owned them a long time and know them intimately well.
have fun listening and shopping. |
All I know is.. If I were left alone with a set of Guarneri Memento's for more than an hour.. terrible things would happen to em'.. >: ) |
Once again Semi, what is IYHO a 'fact' is far from it.
Is the Esotar still SOTA, not to your ears, ok I can accept that, however,
to say it masks micro dynamics and detail tells me that there is something else in your system that is the culprit in that area.( The Esotar certainly does not do that in my system, in fact my female a'phile friend enjoys this aspect greatly and I suspect she has better hearing than you do!) I don't know what is in your system as i notice that for some reason you don't post it on 'Agon and therefore we have no way of seeing your room or equipment.
I presume that you own the GM's and therefore the bias.BTW, you seem to have owned numerous pieces of equipment that have come and gone, are you really happy with the GM's? |
Trust your own ears is what I always tell people, you system should please yourself, not others.
If you have a chance to hear a super high resolution system consisting of diamond/ribbon/Be tweeters at length, even better if you can live with them for months, and go back to hear an older silk dome, you will know what I am talking about.
I am super sensitivie to brightness/harshness of any kind, I sold my Wilson WP 5.1 after owning them a month for that exact reason. I still like Esotar based speakers because they are very easy to listen to, but when compared to newer and better tweeters Esotar is showing its age. Sorry, technology in mechanical, electrical, and psychoacoustic engineering have advanced very far in the past 20 years. I have to admit diamond tweeter is very seductive, as much as I used to hate B&W (sold 802N in no time too), the new B&W diamond are very capable speakers as well as other diamond speakers like Tidal, Avalon, and Marten Design.
An older design that masks out micro dynamic and details though pleasant to listen to can't be called world class when compared to the current SOTA. Not saying GH is garbage, it's far from it, but GM simply does more in recreating music and that's a fact. |
If someone picks a speaker because of its tweeter behaviour, or soundstage or any other audiophile trick, he/she is missing the point. I pick a system or a speaker for the matter, based on the overall presentation of music and how the artist intention is rendered thru the chain, anything less than that becomes boring talk and a waste of precious time IMHO. |
Semi, I can only speak for myself, BUT I personally have no problem with any type of tweeter as long as it sounds good. I have owned Titanium domes, Be tweets, ribbons,stats and alum domes-- I enjoyed them all.
However, I do NOT think that I prefer a 'romantic' presentation, although a bright presentation does bother me. I do feel that if a speaker has a tendency towards brightness and "glare" then very likely the culprit is the tweet. (and many times that tweet is a hard dome).IMHO you cannot really generalize so much in regards to people's taste in presentation as much as you may think.
Interestingly, I have a female 'phile friend, whom has superior high-end hearing capabilities to my male 'phile friends high-end hearing . She can pick up a
bright/glaring speaker in a country minute; she almost always dislikes titanium domes and in fact told me that she actually HATES all Wilson's for this reason. My female friend also tells me that her older husband cannot hear this problem and likes Wilsons along with many other what she calls 'Screaming' speakers. |
If I can generalize.
People who like GH prefers a more romantic presentation, they would oppose to any type of hard dome tweeter including Be or diamond.
I was in that camp for years, I have owned GH, EA1, Extrema, Dyn C5 for over 10 years combined but decided to try a different "tweeter" for a change. I later found a new dimension in sound which I like as well. Like what Pinkus said, it's a matter of taste. I used to hate Wilson, but now listening to some newer Wilson can be an enjoyment. I also love Be and diamond tweeter now as well. |
Pinkus on another thread you wrote and I quote"Of course it is also possible that I am highly suggestible, and I am the one with the tin-ear."
I think that may speak for itself..:0)
BUT in all seriousness, I do agree that 'each to their own' is applicable with SF G's and in fact this applies to any speaker or other piece of equipment. Nonetheless, along with many other 'phile friends,it has been my experience that when using our ears we come away with a MAJOR preference for the GH's over the GM's. Obviously, your mileage differs. |
Davef,
there are people who on this thread who have listened to both and some prefer the G, and others the H. So I would say it is not a question of one using or not using their ears, but simply a preference for one or the other. Some people prefer the midrange purity of the H while others prefer the versatility and more full range sound of the M.
But you keep insisting that the H is superior ... can you please repeat after me - different strokes for different folks :-) |
Flg2001, i think a little salt in this thread is a good idea..
It doesn't really surprise me that there are many GH owners in Italy,
or anywhere else for that matter, that are "reluctant" to give up their
GH's for GM's. A backward step is never anything anyone does unless
they do it "reluctantly".
IMHO if people will use their ears when they compare GH's to GM's,
the obvious superiority of the GH's becomes very evident. |
Just to add some additioonal salt to the thread here, I had the chance to chat with Lorenzo, cheif designer for Mastersound in the last CES, I did mention my setup, and when I said Guarneri speakers he asked..."new or old version" for which I replied "old Homage version" he said then that those are indeed great speakers, adding that he has several customers who are as well reluctant to sell their GH to go for the GM in Italy.
Might be right..... |
Since this thread just got bumped and I'm feeling a growing affinity for Daveyf, here is my 2 cents.
I have owned both Guarneri models at the same time for over a year. Didn't plan that. For years I wanted the H's but couldn't find the "perfect" pair. So I bought a brand new pair of M's. Sure enough, 1 month later that perfect pair of H's found it's way to me. If I didn't already have Magnepans and a very special pair of custom 2 ways, I would have kept both pairs of the G's.
For my house, 3 sets of speakers is pushing it so the 4th pair would have to go. It was the M's, VERY RELUCTANTLY.
I prefer the H's to the M's. Nothing wrong with M's, I wouldn't have bought them if there was something I didn't like about them.
I have different amps and what the H's do for me is sound great with every amp I have mated them with. This runs the gamut with class A ss, Tripath chip, pp and single ended tube amps (the H's have a friendlier impedance toward smaller amps). The H's also sounded better in my smaller room (home office: 14x12 10' high ceiling).
|
Hi George, I heard a Jadis Defy 7 mk1V a couple of years ago with
SF GH"s. It was a very nice match indeed; almost made me sell my
Jeff Rowland model 8. The only thing that kept me from doing that was
that the Jadis seemed to lose a little detail when compared to my 8.
Nonetheless, I do agree that a tube amp is a GREAT way to go with the GH"s.
I am enjoying an ARC D70 mk2 with rolled in tubes right now. This amp seems to have real simpatico with these speakers.
BTW Pinkus, I wouldn't trade SF GM's for GH's, my ears would never forgive me. |
I'm sorry for the interruption, but if you don't mind...
I wish to add an off-topic advice in case that you allready have the early Guarneri Hommage:
Give a try to the Jadis Defy 7
You would not believe the synergy!!!
George |
Thanks Milimetr. Very informative. Maybe even Daveyf will be convinced :-) |
Recently I have opportunity to see Guarneri Memento disassembled.
There are few interesting observations.
First of all both speakers are custom designed for this project. Woofer is C-Quenze model from Audio Technology (formerly Skaaning). Woofer has high diameter voice coil, the great air gap height and design of the basket extremely sturdy and free of obstructions.
The tweeter is from Scan Speak ring radiator, but it was completely redesigned for Guarneri project. Custom tweeter has a double magnet back and a decompression chamber. As with earlier Guarneri Homage also in Memento tweeter plastic rear element was replaced with piece of wood. Tweeter front panel is also custom designed.
The front panel of the cabinet is made of two elements coupled together by damping material. All cabinet is filled with some kind of wool. It certainly shows that designer of Guarneri Memento has not have only cost saving in mind.
All internal wires are made with silver-palladium Yter cabling. |
BTW, with my DJH Pre I am using some very cool POPE tubes from upscale audio. These two tubes transformed this pre in a very good way. Pricey but worth it. |
The GM's have MUCH more bass than the GH, but the bass in the GM is very very tight and I have no need for a subwoofer in my LARGE room. I have the M's about 3 FT from my back wall, 7FT apart and slightly toed in. They are about 2 1/2 FT from each side wall.
For my electronics, I have been using AES Six Pacs and an AES DJH pre for the past year after about a dozen buy/sell sessions. The Six Pacs put out 50-60 watts in triode mode and the sound is absolutely amazing.
I used a Cambridge Audio 840C for my CD playback and that will eventually be upgraded to a Cary 303/300. My pre will be upgraded to a SLP98P as that is my fave pre EVER.
Anyway, I sit here now listening to Led Zeppelin III and the sound blows me away, even after living with this for a year.
Diana Krall, Allison Krauss, and even ACDC sound amazing on the M's. The G's did not do so well with heavier music.
My speaker cables are very inexpensive and from Clear Day cables here on Agon. I love them. I used to own $2500 cables and feel that for the money these cables only give you an extra 5% increase in sound quality.
My Ic's are Cardas.
Anyway, I really love the G's but for sound, I love the M's even more. Remember, I had them side by side in my room which is LARGE and rectangular. I do not have the dimensions.
I also prefer the M's without the grilles. |
The GM's have MUCH more bass than the GH, but the bass in the GM is very very tight and I have no need for a subwoofer in my LARGE room. I have the M's about 3 FT from my back wall, 7FT apart and slightly toed in. They are about 2 1/2 FT from each side wall.
For my electronics, I have been using AES Six Pacs and an AES DJH pre for the past year after about a dozen buy/sell sessions. The Six Pacs put out 50-60 watts in triode mode and the sound is absolutely amazing.
I used a Cambridge Audio 840C for my CD playback and that will eventually be upgraded to a Cary 303/300. My pre will be upgraded to a SLP98P as that is my fave pre EVER.
Anyway, I sit here now listening to Led Zeppelin III and the sound blows me away, even after living with this for a year.
Diana Krall, Allison Krauss, and even ACDC sound amazing on the M's. The G's did not do so well with heavier music.
My speaker cables are very inexpensive and from Clear Day cables here on Agon. I love them. I used to own $2500 cables and feel that for the money these cables only give you an extra 5% increase in sound quality.
My Ic's are Cardas.
Anyway, I really love the G's but for sound, I love the M's even more. Remember, I had them side by side in my room which is LARGE and rectangular. I do not have the dimensions.
I also prefer the M's without the grilles. |
