2. amps-preamps
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Sonic qualities of SET output tubes?

Can you readily identify a 300B, 2A3, 805, 211, etc., amp’s sound with your eyes closed most of the time?


If so, I’sure would like to hear from you.


Amplifier design and the technology utilized within its confines decides the ‘voice’ or influence it will yield as much or more so than merely the output tubes the designer has chosen to use.


I get that part emphatically. One must hear the amp regardless the type of output tube technology on hand.


And yes, some Pentodes and Tetrodes are used as Triodes but are not indeed triodes by their specific architecture. That’s OK, just focus on their use as Triodes herein, please.


There are however certain tube types, irrespective of vintage which have basic undeniable sonic colors or characteristics, apart from their electrical aspects which keep attracting people to amps which use this or that tube in its output stage.


Some love 211s. some adore 300Bs. Some love EL34s configured to run as Triodes. I have an affinity for the latter. So far anyway. This topic could change my mind.


Has your own experience informed you what this or that output tube’s natural flavor regularly announces itself to be so you can have a reasonable expectation of its general presentation?


What sonic attribute continually attracts you to a particular SET tube design, 300B or some others?


Or, conversely, what is it about the sound that would bring you to covet a 211 amp over a 2A3, for example.


Why as another example, would you pick a 2A3 amp over one using 805s or 300B, 211, etc. or vice versa?


Removing ‘vintages’ and electronic or electrical qualities from the argument, what sonic attributes for the more popular S.E.T. amp output tubes have you determined seem to persist in their particular DNA?


I’m asking for input from those SET tube devotees to lend their experiences and knowledge on the subject of what tube sounds like what irrespective of the SET application, generally speaking.


My goal is to try getting a better feel for which SET Tube amp design, if any, I’d want to pursue and possibly invest heavily into going forward as the soul of a new system.


Tremendous thanks to all!

blindjim

Showing 18 responses by charles1dad

charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Ralph,
One minor correction to your post above. Yes I have those Total Eclipse speakers that you described however it uses the Scanspeak revelator soft  some tweeter rather than a ribbon.

The Total Victory is the speaker model that used the ribbon. Coincident  had two separate speaker lined, the Victory and the Eclipse
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Stfoth,
Newbie or not  you're correct.  It has been my experience that you simply cannot categorize tubes in that manner,  sorry but there are too many variables to factor in.  Any of the output tubes mentioned can sound glorious or uninspiring depending on the design,  builder talent and implementation. People will have their particular favorites but over generalizing is inaccurate. 
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Hi Bill,
Your fitness level I suspect has increased quite a bit since your move to the Volunteer state and that's good. 

When you have time to compare the two excellent amplifiers driving  the Triumphs let me know your thoughts. 
I compared the Frankenstein with a friend's Atma-Sphere MA-1 amplifiers on his easy to drive speakers a few years ago. It was much fun. 
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Bill (Brownsfan)
Your experiences written about above are an illustrative example of amplifier and speaker matching. The Coincident Frankenstein was "sublime " driving your Triumph Extreme speakers. This indicates that the Triumph Extreme and the Total Eclipse have very similar speaker load characteristics. You said the Frankenstein didn’t struggle at all driving the Coincident Pure Reference Extreme (so again presumably similar load characteristics).

The Super Victory II it seems is a more challenging load and obviously benefits by matching the higher power Atma-Sphere MP 60s.
Have you tried the M 60s with the easier load Triumph Extremes?

I’m assuming that the M 60s and the Coincident Statement Line Stage are getting along just fine. I did the reverse, I heard my Frankenstein with the Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamplifier. It was a wonderful combination.
P.S.
I hope you’re still enjoying the Tennessee mountains and hiking trails 😊
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Bill,
Yes, you may see a pair of the Total Eclipse for sale once in a blue moon. Your TV II were a complex design relatively speaking. 4 way, 3 crossovers, 9 drivers( mixture of brands as well) I  believe including ribbon tweeter.

In contrast the TE was a simpler 3 way with minimalist crossover, 5 drivers (all Scanspeak) just fewer parts and more straight forward. Really two different concepts in a sense. There’s only a single capacitor at the tweeter and no resistor at that site.I replaced the stock Solens with the Duelund CAST (that you recommended years ago, thanks 😊). Just beautiful sound.
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 

Hi Bill (Brownsfan)

It's so good to see you posting again as I always appreciate your insight. I do believe that the Total Eclipse and your Triumph are easier to drive than your SV II speakers. I'll admit that you listen to more demanding music more often than I do as another factor. I'm a jazz guy and you're classical. I very happy to read that the Atma-Sphere mono blocks are just a better fit for your needs. The Frankenste
in and TE

charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 

Hi Bill (Grannyring),

You had the Coincident Total Victory II(TV) and I have the Total Eclise II. Although the TV is rated as 97 db sensitive and the TE 94db people familiar with both say the TE is actually easier to drive. Could be the simpler design and crossover and the 14 ohm impedance.


I have driven my TE with three amplifiers

100 watt PP 6550/KT 88 tube

40 watt PP el 34

8 watt 300b SET

The 100 watt amplifier has more bass weight and impact driving the TE.

All three of these amplifiers sound "really" good with these speakers.


Overall the SET is the best of this fine group.

Tone, timbre harmonic overtones, openness, transparency, tactile presence, 3 dimensional presentation, nuance and sheer emotional connection. I could go on but I believe you see my point. I’ve have this combination for 8 ears and if anything the SET impresses me more as time passes. It has a naturalness and purity of sound the two fine PP amps can’t equal.


What the SET excels at are the qualities that matter most to me. I understand the desire others here express for power. Do what pleases you and makes you happy. Head to head comparisons in my system the 8 watt 300b SET is superior in music reproduction over my 100 watt PP amplifier.


As has been said before low power SETs are not for everyone and I agree with this observation. No type of amplifier will do everything flawlessly so we choose our compromises.


When I consider all the musical and sonic parameters that are crucial for my enjoyment the 8 watt SET has been superior in my system. For others perhaps not. For point of reference I prefer both of my PP tube amps over my prior Symphonic Line transistor amplifier.

Charles

charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Leotis, 
You are welcome.  Balanced AC electrical power is a major asset for audio systems in my opinion.
Charles  
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Hi Leotis,
I posted a list of potential speakers on this thread yesterday. I don’t know what your specific budget is but the Tekton Double Impacts and the Coherent speaker a floor standing 2 way (Canadian)are in the 3000-3500.00 dollar range. Different design approaches but both are said to mate  well with a 300b SET amplifier. Worth looking into I believe. 
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Inna,
I wholeheartedly agree there are power amplifiers with sublime sound quality that utilize the output transformer.  I do sincerely appreciate the high quality of the Atma-Sphere,  Berning designs.  There are however other extremely talented amplifier builders who do superb work with other topologies. 

Bill, I was unable to download the picture of your unique amplifier 😊
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Blindjim,
Here’s are a few more,
Horning
Vaughn Speaker
TonIan Labs
Sonist
Ocellia
Trenner-Friedl (certain models in their line)
Audio Note
Tekton
Coherent Speakers

Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Bill, 
 Okay I see. Yes I  know the Sound Labs speakers.  Your Crescendos are a  very different scenario. 
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Hi Bill,
I’d truly be honored to be a beta tester for this "unique " 300b-digital (all in one audio product). This sounds unusually interesting . Bill I thought you had tried the Zero transformers in the past and had mixed results. If I’m mistaken then my apology.
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Bill,
Would their 60 watt output satisfy you given what you described as the demands (89 db and 6 ohm impedance load)  of the Crescendos?
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Hi Bill,
I'm very familiar with the Atma-Sphere MA-1 mono blocks,  are you considering these or the M-60s with your Crescendos?
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Hi Swampwalker,
Nice comments, I also suggested the VAC Renaissance 30/30 or a high quality moderate power class A push pull tube amplifier. As you note they do offer increased speaker choice flexibility and are easier to build a system around for most people as well. 

SET will frustrate some people and will require more of a thought out plan of action. It’s worked out very well for me but I knew what was needed and was prepared for it. By the way I am not saying that you weren't prepared for SET,  it just didn't meet your particular needs. 

In addition to the VAC REN amplifier, believe that the Atma-Sphere S-30 , M-60 and the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL 40 would serve Blindjim well. Wolf Garcia seems to be getting results/outcome quite similar to mine.
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
The irony is that the vast majority of high End speakers are in the 4 ohm range. This  suggests that either, 
1 4 ohm load impedance speakers are easier to design/build.
2  An assumption that the majority of buyers plan to use solid state amplification. 
3  The designers/builders simply believe that the speakers sound better with the lower 4 ohm impedance. 

My SET and 2 push pull amplifiers all mate beautifully with my 14  ohm speakers. I do believe Ralph's assertion that higher speaker impedance is beneficial to all amplifier topologies.  It seems many speaker builders would disagree with him given the predominance of 4 ohm speakers in the marketplace. 
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,223 posts
 
Blindjim,
At the risk of redundancy I must agree with Whart and his sage advice regarding amplifier and speaker matching, a critical point. This is especially true for lower and mid powered tube amplifiers, you have to consider your options simultaneously.

I have three tube amplifiers.
100 watt 6550/KT 88 push pull
40 watts el 34 push pull
8 watt 300b SET

The 8 watt has superior sound quality driving the same speaker as my other two amplifiers. This possible due to the choice of the speakers I use. I suspect that you’d be very pleased with a moderately powered class A tube push pull, Jadis for an example or the VAC Renaissance 30/30 (300b push pull) with an easy load speaker with sufficient sensitivity. SETs aren’t for everyone although they’ve served me extraordinarily well.
Charles
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