Macrojack: I am only talking theoretically, but even besides Quad, have there not been single driver speakers like Lowthers all along? Somehow they remained a niche albeit with small loyal fan base. Also, if Druids are so good, why does company offer a more expensive Definition, and why is it working on even other models? You know the Quad had just one model for years at a time. Just being the Devil's advocate here but this is the natural question, what do you know about Druid's that its makers don't? |
Miklorsmith: There are about 99 makes out there that somebody or other considers "only one I'd consider" or "best for money". People are entitled to such opinions, and to even change them. However, I find it a little odd that people forget or don't know that single driver speakers have existed for decades. No one make has dominated the market, but then it is not clear at all if Zu's will do that either.
Macrojack: I have not heard Druids, but then I am not the one who promotes them at every appropriate and inappropriate occasion; also, there are too many speakers out there for anyone to have heard them. Contrary to your posture that you were merely answering Saki70's question, you took yet another opportunity to announce how "revolutionary" Druids are, without facing the fact that single-driver speakers have existed for decades. Even the designers don't seem as enchanted with Druids as you are, for they seem to keep modifying it and also to work on newer models. Not quite the confidence of Quad 57 team, is it?
This is not to say that the Zu driver or the Druid speaker is not good. However, I would wait for the designers to settle on a design themselves, and also for a few side by side comparisons. In the meantime I urge everyone to take this kind of single-minded promotion of a single brand with a big and much-deserved grain of salt. |
Ton1313:
I do and have appreciated your feedback. But, platitudes aside, there are simply too many speakers to form opinions only after actually hearing them all for myself. For better or worse, we rely on other people's experience too, common ground provided by comparison against models we both know or have reasons to respect.
Your list is numerically impressive, but all of those are models with high distribution costs, and I wouldn't expect them to offer the same value as speakers direct or almost-direct marketed by an equally good designer.
That's why I solicited comparisons among GMA, Salk, Tyler, and Zu in another thread. Understandably, few people know more than one of these makes. However, I look forward to experience slowly accumulating in this forum.
I also believe in letting a design team finalize its design. Quad 57, Spendor BC1, the LS3/5a, Larger Advent, DCM Time Window all are examples of very different speakers whose designers arrived at a point where they felt they had done their best. If a designer continues to feel he can improve his product in a few months, then at least I am not inspired to buy it just yet. This is a subjective call, and others may well feel differently, but this is how I feel. |
Moderator: I see that one of my posts above got posted twice. I won't be offended at all if you remove the duplicate occurence. :-)
Miklorsmith, Tvad: Cheerleading is an established part of audio, indeed any passionate hobby, and is one of the things that makes the participation fun. But the extreme kind at least deserves to be called and pointed out.
Macrojack: I gave you examples of speaker designs themselves that were finalized to the point that the designers didn't tweak any more. Similar examples exist in other components. Of course, so do counter-examples, when a component keeps getting "improved" forever. I just prefer the former way of doing things.
Speaking of works of literature and music, one may buy 10,000's of books and cd's in one's life, but only a few speakers, so the standards have to be different. After all, nobody has held up one cd in his hand and said to me, "this is so revolutionary that you can stop listening to all other music now". With components, that happens with amusing or frightening regularity.
[Still, have you never read, seen or heard a real classic besides Rocky and Terminator variety? :-) For most of the classic poems, novels, stories, plays, symphonies, etc., once they were published, there was no Mark2, let alone Mark3 and Mark4, etc.]
In the end it is simply my personal preference to wait for a design team to stabilize their design, whether it is at Mark 4 or Mark 29, before I'll consider buying it. If that seems silly to you, so be it.
As for my being anti-Zu, consider this: I have not said one word against their sound, which I haven'e heard, only heard about. I have short-listed them in my own thread when inviting comparison among selected few brands. I just told a new manufacturer Daber Audio (another thread) that "Apparently, the guys to beat are Green Mountain, Salk, Silverline, Tyler, and Zu".
Could it be a sign of some unbalanced extreme edge in your thinking that even such complientary attitude sounds "anti" to you? |
Phil, Miklorsmith: Your kind of advocacy of Zu is appreciated, that is how I became curious about Zu's in the first place. As to why discussions end up revolving around Zu's, you'd notice, eg in this thread itself, that Zu's start out as one among many on someone's short list. Then their extreme cheerleaders move in. (And yes they have said Zu is "revolutionary" for not having a cross-over.) It is that kind of advocacy we should call.
Jeff: Good luck with your audition. I look forward to your first impressions and later a full review. I would suggest starting a new thread. Please list other speakers you compared them against, and also on what kind of music.
Other thoughts on Zu: (i) As I said above, designers know their product and capabilities best and as long as they are tweaking the design and think they can improve it (at the same price point) I am happy to let them try. When they settle down, I'll listen to the final result. (ii) I also think there is huge gap between Druids and Definitions, between 2 drivers and 7, between $2800 and $9000. So the Zu floorstander range has a hole in the middle with room for a model or two. Maybe that's what they are working on. |
Jeff: Great review. I responded to it there but a few words may not be out of place here too.
My own unsolicited advice is a little different. Your review basically says to me that you feel Gallos -> Druids will be a sideways move for you. That, plus the fact that Zu is working on newer models, including perhaps a further improved Druid, suggests waiting. See what their lineup looks like after a while.
Most of us have been searching for the best speaker for our taste/budget for years. If we have done even 1/2 of a good job, then it should not be trivial to better what we settled on. It can be done, that's why we keep looking, :) but it is a tribute to the job you did so far that it is not easy. So congratulations and good luck.
Rather than ordering Druids, I would suggest trying to hear other contenders as and when you can. And, always, please post your impressions. :-) |
Matrix: I wasn't being theoretical, I read somewhere (6moon?) that Zu is working on newer models. I am curious enough to see what will come out.
I have very good speakers and have no compulsion to buy now.
Theoretically, I don't agree with your analysis. Designers who could design a full range speaker for a large room should be able to design one for smaller rooms. Of course, Zu might (or not) have made a marketing desicion to let the subwoofer fill the middle slot, which may work for some, but I feel like Tvad, the subwoofer route is not for me. |
Matrix, Tvad:
The Zu model I recall readig about was not Definition Pro. Unfortunately, I don't remember more. I hope more information will be available soon.
I too meant subwoofer in the traditional sense of a separate third cabinet. I like two full-range floorstanding speakers.
I am sure Druid is a good speaker but a sideways move for those who already have a great speaker with limited bass. It may even be better than what they have, but for many a meaningful upgrade would have to be all round, not spend a couple thousand dollars for a sideways move. Definition is probably a meaningful upgrade, but not affordable for some of us. However, if Srajan would sell his pair for a little less than the $5500 Zu charged him in a sweetheart deal, he can look me up. :)
We'll see what future brings, and I am sure it will bring many interesting things, from Zu as well as others. |
Smeyers: "I think the Tone model (with some digital eq tweaking) is one of the best speakers I've ever heard regardless of cost."
It probably is! But just a few musings your comment inspired. With so much junk out there, any great speaker costing close to $2k should be "one of the best". The same could be said about offerings from Tyler, Salk, GMA, VSR, Spendor, Harbeth, Quad, and many more. The list expands many times if we include used.
Such a clasification is useful for first time buyers, when avoiding junk is one of the urgent needs. Later, you don't want merely "one of the best" because you alreday have one of those. What you want is an upgrade meaningful to your listenting tastes at a price you can afford.
It is also true that as incremental differences become smaller, only they may be attractive to those who seek the last ounce of excellence and can afford it. Otherwise one can certainly enjoy great music on many speakers in the "less than $2k" region. |
Macrojack: "I will gladly provide a demonstration of the Zu Druids in my home. Just email me to make arrangements at your convenience."
First of all thanks for the offer, this is a healthier turn in the discussion. Where do you live? Probably far away from me, but I hope some A'goners will be able to take you up. I look forward to reading their reviews.
If you'd permit and they would be willing, they can bring their speakers for side by side comparison. reading about that would be even better!
Thanks again!
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Jsc80: Which speakers did you have before Def's and did you get a chance to compare them side by side? |
