kosst_amojan, no not 50 plays. It depends, can easily be 200-300. But you are right, and I mentioned it before too - it's a rough ride. I am a tape head, anyway. I got one Maxell Vertex cassette that I played more than 500 times on my Nak. Yes, mechanically not as smooth as new when you rewind it, which I normally never do, I just checked a few times. It sounds very close to the first time. Maybe hundred times more before I have to replace it.
200-300 plays? What do you listen to, Metallica? Obviously there can be long term damage if the cartridge and tonearm geometry is not correct. It is not correct to call a stylus a rock. It’s an extremely small light smooth almost zero mass crystal with very low friction. Note to costco_emoji - try taking the quarters off your cartridge.
You are, in fact, dragging a rock through a groove made of plastic with
force equal to hundreds of psi. The rocks wear out. I'm pretty sure the
plastic does too.
This is a common strawman. There's no rock.
And this is kinda why I don't take vinyl fans
too seriously. It's common knowledge vinyl is worth about 50 plays
before it's lost noticable quality.
I would not call that common knowledge. I have LPs I liked so much that I played them every day for a year (Michael Oldfield's Songs of Distant Earth) and they still play fine. Still good too 25 years on... (that LP came out in 1993, the year of least vinyl production; A friend of mine and I imported all the original copies of this LP into the US 25 years ago)..
And then there's the obscene
expense in just competently playing the things, as you pointed out.
What's a halfway decent DAC cost? A few hundred bucks? A couple Grand
for a really nice one? For distortion and dynamics that absolutely
destroy vinyl.
The digital industry does not like to talk about aliasing, but it is a form of distortion and is in the recording- no matter how good your playback is, the digital playback tends to be brighter than real life since the ear converts that distortion (known in the analog world as *inharmonic distortion* and is a form of IMD) into tonality- in this case the brightness for which digital is known.
As for tubes...
They're material and labor
intensive to make. Nobody would have developed the technology if
something smaller, cheaper, and more efficient had come along
first.nobody is developing vinyl or tape anymore. And why? Because
digital is better. When superior things are born, inferior things die.
Like punch cards. Like floppy disks. Like horse and carriage. Like
typeset. Nobody will ever again develop a new kind of tube, except Korg
for whatever reason. Those are kinda cool. I might like to build a
pre-amp with some of those.
Henry T Moray developed the first germanium transistors in the 1920s which he later patented. IIRC one of the people that worked with him later developed the transistor at Bell Labs. Lilienfeld patented something very much like the FET in 1930. The problem with your statement above is this: Tubes were declared 'obsolete' in the 1960s. Its now 2018; tubes have been 'obsolete' now for longer than when they were the only game in town, thus debunking your claim above, since apparently they must not be 'inferior'. You don't have to know anything about engineering to understand this- its purely economic. If tubes were really inferior, they'd be gone, but the marketplace keeps them around. The market doesn't keep flathead engines around, doesn't keep punchcards and so on. Those are actually real examples of obsolete tech.
Vinyl is still being developed. Acoustic Sounds, a well-known high end audio LP producer in Salinas KS, has a pressing plant called QRP. QRP modified their pressing machines so they don't vibrate during the cooling process of the vinyl. The result is dead silent grooves. We've done some projects through them, but first you have to know one more thing: If the cutter stylus is set right and at the right temperature, the groove that it cuts in the lacquer is so quiet that no matter what your playback electronics are, they represent the noise floor. IOW, in playing back a lathe cut, the lacquer is considerably lower noise than the best electronics. Now the QRP pressings are so quiet that they often share this quality with lacquers. They've pushed the noise floor down by a good 10-20 db! I'm not sure how far, since the best we've been able to get our of our playback is -85 db and the QRP tests we've gotten back are quieter than that. So I'm just letting you know that your -70s figure that you've mentioned is a bit out of date.
I have a feeling that kosst_amojan was alluding to diamond that is often, if not always, at the tip. I have no idea where cartridge manufacturers source it from, but many a bride-to-be likes to refer to it as a "rock". Probably all of the bride-to-be ladies would be very disappointed if rocks they got were size of a needle tip, though. What do they use to make contact surfaces of the styli these days?
I also have old records, dating much before 1990s, that sound just fine to me even if "rocks" they were played with have not always been state-of-the-art. In fact, some did have coins placed on the tonearm. "Sounding fine to me" may be influenced by nostalgia, though.
"You don't have to know anything about engineering to understand this- its purely economic. If tubes were really inferior, they'd be gone, but the marketplace keeps them around."
Not many major electronic products seem to use tubes anymore. Not even in this minuscule "audiophile" world. I would dare to say that, even as dependent on electronics as it is, an average Western world household does not have one single tube inside the house/apartment. What the heck, make it any world. It is pure economics, indeed.
Tubes may be surviving as a niche product for a few enthusiasts and that is who they are being made for. They have not died, despite them actually needing replacement quite often, because there is a market for them and that market is negligible when talking about economy. There are many products that survive because of people who cherish them for whatever reason despite significant flaws. Tubes are one of them.
I am all for tubes, but saying they are not an obsolete technology is a bit of over-optimistic stretch of imagination. Ask anyone younger than 40 about tubes. Chances are they will not have any idea what you are even talking about, much less have ever seen or used one.
09-12-2018 12:05pm "You don’t have to know anything about engineering to understand this- its purely economic. If tubes were really inferior, they’d be gone, but the marketplace keeps them around." Not many major electronic products seem to use tubes anymore. Not even in this minuscule "audiophile" world. I would dare to say that, even as dependent on electronics as it is, an average Western world household does not have one single tube inside the house/apartment. What the heck, make it any world. It is pure economics, indeed.
Tubes may be surviving as a niche product for a few enthusiasts and that is who they are being made for. They have not died, despite them actually needing replacement quite often, because there is a market for them and that market is negligible when talking about economy. There are many products that survive because of people who cherish them for whatever reason despite significant flaws. Tubes are one of them.
I am all for tubes, but saying they are not an obsolete technology is a bit of over-optimistic stretch of imagination. Ask anyone younger than 40 about tubes. Chances are they will not have any idea what you are even talking about, much less have ever seen or used one."
Oh and this same sentiment was said for the lowly LP..... Where is the CD today compared to LP’s? Tube’s, like vinyl is in its 2nd renaissance. We have more tube production today than at any point since the learly 70’s. People that care to listen without bias can easily hear that tubes are superior, when designed properly. Ask John Curl. I talk to John from time to time still and he is quite open about this fact. I will be seeing him in Denver in the Parasound or Constellation room during this coming RMAF and if you would like to attend you can ask him and find out for yourself. He is as open and honest as the day is long.
It is a simple mind that only sees what it wants to see.
"People that care to listen without bias can easily hear that tubes are superior, when designed properly. Ask John Curl."
Some of us, me included, would not argue about sound signature of tubes as often being much more pleasing. However, I would prefer to ask maritime51 and kosst_amojan for their opinion first. Just so I do not become a simple tube-admiring mind that only sees what it wants to see.
"Tube’s, like vinyl is in its 2nd renaissance."
That is undeniable. However, it is not that hard to go up when you are starting at the bottom. As far as vinyl renaissance is concerned, some might say that Park Slope kids have something to do with it. You know, those guys on Peugeot bicycles. Nobody there is older than her/his bicycle.
CD did go away, it matured and became files in your computer. That is called evolution.
erik_squires, Very creative phrasing to restart the same old tube versus SS debate. :-) If modern digital streaming came first there surely would be no records.
Tubes were a step along the way to where we are today.
If a transistor looked like a tube and a tube looked like a transistor and transistors came first, ta ta tubes.
Not me, geoffkait, not me. My school was for free. We learned about crystals, rocks, counting, you name it. I apply that basic knowledge on this thread. It is, in fact, enough for discussions here.
I agree with mapman. Tubes were a step along the way to where we are today - which is tubes. Sometimes in order to create you must first destroy. Even John Curl likes tubes. He says they just sound right.
Tubes were a step along the way to where we are today, which is not tubes to any meaningful extent worth mentioning anywhere but circular threads on "audiophile" forums. There was no sign of tubes on today's Apple conference and Bose does not seem to use them either.
I am all for tubes, but saying they are not an obsolete technology is a
bit of over-optimistic stretch of imagination. Ask anyone younger than
40 about tubes. Chances are they will not have any idea what you are
even talking about, much less have ever seen or used one.
This has to do with human hearing-perceptual rules. The reason tubes are still around is that its easier to build a sonically pleasing amplifier with tubes than it is with transistors after all this time.
Sure, transistors have 'lower' distortion. But the distortions they have are far more audible to the human ear. One of the problems facing the audio industry is that harmonic distortions are not weighted according to how the ear perceives them. The 5th and 7th are far more audible than the 2nd; that is why many transistor amps are brighter and harsher than tube amps, even though they may have 100th the THD.
But in case anyone has any illusions, the larger tube plants are kept alive by the music industry, i.e. guitar amplifiers. But this allows for tubes to be advanced- such as the KT150, which didn't exist 10 years ago.
My feelings are not hurt by my post being removed and I can stop participating at any time, but it is peculiar what flies and what does not here. So far, I have been flagging only posts that call for death, suicides, and such.
There is lots of bad SS and tube gear out there, but there is lots of good, too.
The problem with these narrow-minded approaches we see here is what mckinneymike summarized well "It is a simple mind that only sees what it wants to see".
There have been, in recent posts, claims about advances in vinyl technology. They are certainly true and they are commendable. I have taken advantage of them myself. However, such statements made to support the claim that vinyl is superior to digital, omit mentioning the fact that digital has been improving as well.
I think you misunderstood my post. Tubes do exist and do have their place in a very small market spot. I enjoy hearing them from time to time, too. However, they are as obsolete as they get on the global scale. 40-year-olds have no idea, save for a few cool ones, what tubes are. Ask them why Powerpoint slides are called like that. Not many will have an idea. Tubes, slides, it is all somewhere in the past. You and I can babble about it, but tubes are long gone in any, as you mentioned, economic sense. Convenience, reliability, and performance of solid state ran them over. We can enjoy them, but we are not that big of a number.
I just had another post removed. It is not "go figure" anymore. I have been insulted enough on these forums, while attempting to stay polite that having posts removed that come nowhere close to what I have been subjected to is making me wonder what is the point of participating anymore.
By the way, moderators, ridiculing certain disability over and over again is not cool at all. Take notice.
Tubes were a step along the way to where we are today, which is not tubes to any meaningful extent worth mentioning anywhere but circular threads on "audiophile" forums. There was no sign of tubes on today's
Apple conference and Bose does not seem to use them either.
Thank God Apple and Bose are not responsible for what hi-fi is or will become. Even the Millenials are discovering vinyl in huge numbers along with valves. Mid-Fi is what is not happening anymore.
Apple is a marketing company, not a hifi company. Their guiding and driving force is now gone. Bose......I forgot they even existed to be honest.
"Bose......I forgot they even existed to be honest."
Well, many people have not. Check their sales figures, if you can. Compare them with tube equipment. I would guess you are not aware of reality these days. If you discount them as a significant company in music reproduction, it would be hard to explain it.
You are right. My humor is a bit over the average. It requires some simultaneous juggling, understanding, and use of multiple facts while applying knowledge of multiple fields from more than a first sentence on some Wikipedia page.
On the other hand, given that your humor is widely accepted here while mine gets deleted, I am honored.
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