Snake oil, fraud, confirmation bias


It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous. For anyone here who honestly holds the position that there is snake oil and fraud in the world of Music Reproduction Systems I challenge them to prove their claims in court it should be an easy task based on the claims they make here in Audiogon  AND they will make a fortune because in the US once proven they can file a class action suit and profit enormously from the efforts of others to deceive. These people regularly claim that "there is no evidence" that things such as cables or fuses make a difference when in actual fact Audiogon is filled with evidence that these things make very real differences in Music Reproduction Systems of course those who claim fraud reject that evidence as "confirmation bias" but in absence of any documentation from them they are only repeating the claim they have made so many times that has been refuted many times here by those who have demonstrated to there satisfaction that they make a difference.   I think in actual truth the real fraudsters here are those that repeatedly make these claims of snake oil and fraud and often they have no experience to back up there claims they simply say the claims are impossible!
clearthink
Use some periods. I ran out of breath reading it. Regarding those who cry "snake oil", don't let them bother you. It will never change.
It sounds like you have your life priorities in order.  For me, I am completely capable of forming my own opinions and discarding simple annoyances. 
Please God make it stop.
TP - You made me laugh out loud (but I agree!!).

sure post your address so I'll know where to file
randy-11: " sure post your address so I’ll know where to file "

You get that through the legal process known commonly known as "discovery" you do not need an address to file or even a name and you can file in your own domicile because your are an "injured party" so just go right ahead and file that lawsuit don’t forget you’ll be wanting class action status you’ll need a lawyer to file this for you but because you have such abundant proof and are so confident I’m sure it won’t cost you a single penny because he will take it on whats known as ’contingency" so go right ahead don’t let anyone stop you!!!

Also I would point out that asking people here for they're address is just creepy.
As I see it, when divergent and highly polarized opinions are expressed about a subject, not only in audio but in most things in life, there is usually an element of truth in what is said on both sides. And the most correct bottom line is usually more nuanced than what tends to be expressed by those at opposite ends of the belief spectrum.

Regards,
-- Al
 
muddythink - you really need to talk to an attorney; just about everything you posted is wrong

No, almarg, strong opinions have little to do with any factual basis for a belief -- a moment's thought will reveal that
I concur with Almarg. I wish more people were like him.

Bob
I have to take a walk, things are really starting to annoy me.
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in actual fact Audiogon is filled with evidence that these things make very real differences in Music Reproduction Systems

Just hearsay, there is no "evidence" just what many of technically knowledgeable, believe is to be "expectation bias", after purchasers spend good money on what amounts to cheap snake oil product/s

Cheers George.
I wish there were ways to make specific threads "invisible" from our local/machine-specific view of A’gon.

Maybe Audiogon can add another section titled Audiobegone for all the naysayers.
There also seems to be the assumption that people buy these products without an audition or return privileges.  
when I first auditioned power cords I was hoping not to like t
hem, so I wouldn't want to buy them...there were free loaners...
some things matter; some things don't

some people want to shill you out of a lot of $$$

buyer be aware
/\ Exactly @jl35 

Not to sound elitist but I sometimes wonder if people are running systems that just aren't detailed or dynamic enough to hear changes in certain products like AC cords or upscale interconnects. The system I had 5 years ago probably would not have been good enough.

I had a friend who works at a shop come over with a healthy bag of interconnects and we traded out cables on my turntable for an hour and a half. I had no preference on a particular brand and I wasn't even sure I needed a new one. But what I heard was pretty outrageous.

Same with AC cables. I bought some thinking I would definitely return them and wound up buying the next tier product.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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WHAT?  The sage only works if it is organic ;]
@oharchie 
+100
I agree with your statement 100%.
The reason is, that i used to be one of those who could hear little to no difference , BUT then one day i bought an amp that was extremely revealing. After that i could hear big differences in all types of cables , whether it was power cords or Interconnects.etc.
I think your statement is OH SO TRUE !!!
The problem is that  most of the Naysayers do not have revealing enough equipment to hear differences,BUT  they have no idea that, that is the problem ! .I  would be willing to bet money on it , because , i promise there is differences that can be heard !!
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Maybe an additional cables Agon forum might be the answer. Cables 2.0 or something or other.
Here is how Audio Asylum handles it. It works. It works quite well.

The Cable Asylum is for those who have decided that audio cables make a sonic difference. If you do not feel that audio cables do sound different, then do not post here. Posts that state that audio cables sound the same, or that all one needs is zip cord and/or dimestore coax, may be deleted, re-directed or other actions taken at the sole discretion of the moderators or the Bored. If you post more than one such post, you may be banned from the Cable Asylum.

There are other forums for those who wish to argue or discuss DBT’s or whether cables sound the same.



.
@clear think

First things first.

Please invest into Anger Management. Not litigation.

Lawyers are the only ones which will get the true benefit in a class action suit. Trust me. Been there and done that with the Federal Govt already..

its the American way.

.. and yes, please check out that little dot under the L key. It’s a huge benefit for reading your flaming discourse in a more intelligent manner. You don’t even have to use the shift key to add it.. just find the L and push the key below it with the same finger you use to type your often aggressive exclamatory falderal.

Remember, freedom of speech doesn’t mean you have the freedom to say anything to anyone. There are limits. You might want to look into what those limitations reference.

= = = = = =

RE Rocks?
There are rocks that will help my system sound better?
Where? How much? Is there a choice in colors? Exactly how big are these things?

Do you put them in a blender with a cup of Snake oil set it to puree, and later sprinkle them on the wires? What??

Sounds very cool.

Sort of like racing stripes on a car. Once applied, the carr is forever a race car. It will go much faster, right?

Can’t wait!


There’s no such thing as an audio emergency, and there is no such thing as offering a piece of audio equipment with intent to do audio harm that is litigatable. Can the color of a car do harm? Can cotton vs. wool vs. synthetic T-shirts do intentional harm? Can this be quantified?

Some people like hard over eggs, I happen to like over easy with toast. Is one more harmful than the other by definition? Can we qualify or quantify with measuring equipment the flavor or textural experience of eggs cooked one way vs. another? Is scambling them a culinary abomination worth suing over?
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@jea48 

I like what AA does and feel it is time for Agon to do the same thing. The few that don’t want to add value to our cable discussions, but just angrily take cable threads off coarse should not be allowed to post on this subject. It is always the same few and often with unfortunate name calling and cyber wise cracks.  It is predictable, boring, and often greatly harms the usefulness and civility of the thread. It is unfortunate that this extreme step is needed, but the actions of a few is driving long time posters away from this site and turning off many potential new active members. The reality is this is in fact happening. Audiogon can no longer ignore this reality. 


How about a 12 Angry Men forum.

"But you said we could forget about all the other stuff."

" It’s always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth."

"You're not goin' to intimidate me - I'm *entitled* to my opinion!"

"You can’t prove it!"




It’s unfortunate.  The trolls will never stop posting inflammatory remarks.  Non-believers will never stop arguing about our so called “religion”.  Kind of makes me feel nautious.
The way I look at it is if you’re happy with the purchase then that is all the evidence needed. It’s none of my business how you spend your money. And vice versa.

Hearing is a personal thing, nobody knows what others can hear or not hear and all the "evidence" in the world of measurements and double blind tests are meaningless. If you hear a difference in a fuse, God bless you and enjoy it. If you can’t hear the difference between components to justify the cost, there is nothing wrong with you -- so afford others that courtesy.

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Actually, the audio hobby in general and this forum in particular are not intended to be or set up to be a peer review of anything. Especially when many of the targets of tweakaphobe scorn and anger are quantum mechanical in nature or things that go BUMP in the night. The technology of many audiophile devices the last twenty years or so, including aftermarket fuses, is beyond whatever the average bear can remember from school. This is not the faculty of Harvard or the AES or the Journal of Physics. A peer review is by uh, peers. What we have here, my friends, are not (rpt not) peers. Let the wailing and hand wringing begin!

Education is what’s left when you subtract everything you forgot from school.

A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

If thy eye offend thee cut it out.
@geoffkait ,

I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way.

I notice you never try to inject fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. We both know in short order a Bored Member would chime in and tell you to take to another AA forum. Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a post of yours on the Cable Asylum for quite awhile.

https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html
.


all the name calling is a shame too, because the underlying debate between scientific analysis and measurement, controlled listening tests, and long term listening decisions could be interesting and informative...
@kosst_amojan,
You won't see geoffkait posting about fuse directionality  on the Cable Asylum.

You won't see a posted message asking do cables really sound different?
Are cables just snake oil?
Will I really hear a difference between ICs?

Here is what you will see.
 https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html

Those posting on the Cable Asylum already know they can hear a difference in cables. They are not going there to have someone try to change their minds telling them no you can't.





jea48
@geoffkait ,

I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way.

>>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently?

jea48
I notice you never try to inject fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. We both know in short order a Bored Member would chime in and tell you to take to another AA forum.

>>>>Huh? With one or two exceptions, I never (rpt never) post on Cable Asylum. Wire directionality would probably be a worthwhile subject for Cable Asylum if you can stand the fierce region of the locals. I've almost never posted on Cable, not in all these years. I’m mean, come on, what would be the point? I’m not a masochist. I do post on General, Prophead and of course, Isolation Ward, which was set up specifically for your humble scribe and May Belt following the Intelligent Chip blow up about 12 years ago. My, how time files. I used to post primarily on Tweakers Asylum but obviously that forum is kind of dead. Oh, well, nothing last forever. 😢

jea48
Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a post of yours on the Cable Asylum for quite awhile.

https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html

>>>>There are reasons for everything. As I said, I almost never posted there. Case solved.😃


.


@kosst_amojan It’s unfortunate that what some are able to discern in their systems that you may or may not be able to hear in your’s, gets you so upset. Isn’t life too short for that?

@jea48 Why should Geoff or anyone else want to involve themselves with Audio Asylum? ugh.  The format there is crazy!
clearthink
It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous.
When threads come off the rail such as this, one solution is to use the "report this" link and alert the moderator that the response is off-topic. There are some angry, self-righteous posters here and there's no need to allow them to prevent an otherwise productive conversation.
hifiman5 said:

@jea48 Why should Geoff or anyone else want to involve themselves with Audio Asylum? ugh. The format there is crazy!

@ hifiman5,

Hardly. 9524 posts.

AA member
geoffkait - Manufacturer, Machina Dynamica
Home page: http://www.machinadynamica.com
northern Virginia, United States

Posts: 9524, Send Email

Date Registered: August 23, 2000

https://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=2678&f=general

As for the format, it’s an acquired taste.
https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html
At first I had trouble following posts until it finally started making sense to me.
I prefer the classic format.

.

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@geoffkait,


jea48
@geoffkait ,

I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way.

>>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently?

jea48 said:

jea48
@geoffkait ,

I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way


geoffkait response:

>>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently?



@geoffkait,

No geoffkait, not everyone is obsessed with fuse directionality as you are.

Just curious geoffkait, what personal listening experience do you have with fuse directionality? What piece of your audio system equipment did you find that made the biggest difference?

.
I see no legitimacy in a declarative, one sided, accusatory blast at what is perception and unsubstantiated guess work, wherein the OP wishes legal action is pursued aginst undeclared manufacturers for groundless ill defined harms.

Sue them all for their possible claims for products may or may not have caused.

Yeah. Good luck with that.

As for debates on electronic goods and accessories, The only and apparently everlasting obstacle of contention remains the aspect of perception vs supposed sciences..

I’m good with which ever has more weight. More creedance. Most legitimate.

I will however use what I have to determine either positions validity.

My methodology is exactly the same as it is for anyone. Hearing and listening to the attributes of the item under examination. Viewing or understanding its esthetics. Fully realizing its actual financial impact. Establishing on a personal level a degree of quantification for the said thing’s performance vs price.

That’s it. Nothing more or less. Just listening., looking and thinking.

It is what 99% of humans do to make decisions on audio equipment.

They walk into the showroom with possibly a copy of consumer reports, or some audio magazine under their arm and ask to see the yada yada thingy described in the mag’s article.

They listen. Then usually, almost always ask what else is comparable I might have, and then I’ll show that to them.

Which one do they always buy?

Its always a coin toss. Always.

Too many human conditions are in the mix. It ain’t all about the specs for the immense majority of the buying public.

And it never will be solely about technical specs.

Technical specs say a lot of important things. They say nothing about system synergy. Neither will they persuade someone to put themselves into harms way moneywise.

Fairy dust or snake oil be damned. Those are the bullets the scientific camp shoots first.

When push comes to shove, the weapons they use to buy with however is always the same thing everyone else uses. Sensibility and available funding.
the only exception here is the same thing which drives much of upper range audio, and certainly this site and those like it.

ego.