SME 20/3 or Oracle Delphi VI or Garrard 301


I am just about to buy a new table. I have happily owned an original oracle Delphi for 30 years! Choices are the new 20/3, Oracle Delphi VI or possibly a rebuilt Garrard 301. They all run about the same money.
The reviews and comments out there lead me to believe I will be better off using a non SME arm on the 20/3...I will probably go with a Graham Phantom. (I like the removable arm tube concept too) For now I will use my SME IV.
keep reading the SME detractors claim that the tables are lifeless. Not something you can accuse a Delphi of for sure. The HiFi News reviews of both tables are nothing short of glowing. As far as I can tell the Oracle is possibly more nimble and musical(?) while the SME is more "solid".
Your thoughts are welcom
mauidj

Showing 31 responses by mauidj

Many mahalos Syntax.
You have summed up my impressions from countless hours of research and questions on various fora.
While everyone has a different ear, perspective, system, environment musical taste etc etc...I believe a consensus can be arrived at after distilling all the data available on the internet....and I believe you have summed it up very well.
I am still listening to others' stories and advise but as each day passes I must admit I am moving slowly but surely towards the 20/3 with Phantom arm.
Not quite there yet.......
Just curious what your impressions are of direct drive units and the TW Raven which seems to have a loyal following on this forum.
Aloha!
Mahalo Cipherjuris.
SP10 eh........interesting.
Are there many mods needed to get one of these singing?
Did Albert Porter do it all or just the plinth?
I have just about talked myself out of the idler drive solution.
The rebuilt 301 ends up in 20/3 price territory with a decent plinth and PS.
I'm wondering why the whole DD/idler drive thing is going through a renaissance right now.
Is it a fashion thing?
Do they all add something or other and we just decide on the flavor of the year?
After all these "new gems" have been around for years. Interesting stuff.
The new 20/3 also has a way thicker top plate and heavier platter. The review was very positive....but aren't they all!
Mahalo Robert.

"So folks are saying to put a non SME arm on a SME table? Check to see if they are off their meds."

I guess the comments come from those who think the combo is dark and using another arm counters that.
Just some say that others not at all.
I guess that's what makes our hobby so interesting....and frustrating too.

Thanks for the input and well wishes. Aloha!
Mahalo Syntax.
Do you know when they changed the bearing in the IV?
I purchased mine about 4 years ago.
Aloha!
Dover...you are correct.
just got done emailing a UK dealer who will rewire it for me and tells me at that point I will have a very fine arm indeed.
I believe I am very close to deciding on the 20/3 for now.
The dealer suggests the 20/12 is audibly better but at almost twice the price I'm going to have to pass for now.
The beauty of an SME is that they do hold their value, so when circumstances change and if I felt the need for that slight bit of extra depth and extension, I could trade up.
I'm surprised there aren't more Oracle votes to this question.
I am still a bit torn..maybe because I have lived happily with one for so long and know it's attributes so well....plus they look so very cool :-)
So...now the question is...20/3 or 20/12?
Almost twice the price.
That extra dough could go towards a Graham Phantom and very nice cartridge.
So for about the same money I could either have a 20/12 with 312S arm or 20/3 with Graham and extra wand for mono cart.
In the end forget the dollars...which will sound better?
Nice to have such decisions to make!
First off....thanks for all the comments.
Of course I would love to listen to them but I live on Maui (yeh I know, it's a sad story!) and there's simply no way to audition anything in my system. There isn't a decent high end retailer in Hawaii let alone on Maui.
To fly to the mainland would be a no brainer...might even find a dealer that sells and can demo both....maybe.
But to what purpose?
What am I going to hear? How do I filter all the other unknown components out?
This is a crap shoot....I wish it weren't.
Dover.....I'm also not sure about the in and out of business thing.
I know Oracle regrouped once ..many years ago..but to my knowledge they are a stable company offering wonderful customer support and an enviable upgrade path for all old tables. The owner, Jacques, has spent countless hours with me and my 30 year old table. Not many manufacturers can claim that.
The piano thing is really interesting because in my estimation it plays piano as close to the real thing as I have ever heard. (note..living on islands most of my life I have heard very few top end tables or other systems so I cannot make meaningful comparisons).
There is a track on an album by David Sanborn called the Bridge where a single note is played with such realism that it still sends shivers through me after 30 years. I play piano so I know how they sound.
As for the "I've been happy for 30 years" quote.
Well yes I have, but that doesn't mean that I can't look for something better.
I'm a happy kind of guy so I don't dwell on having something better all the time. But the table broke so it's time for something new.
Better is also a form of different...no?
I am so happy for fora like this where people with experience can advise...hey even preach...on the merits or otherwise of the hundreds of choices out there.
I have to distill and filter these comments and those of the reviewers that I have read and re read countless times. 'Cos these guys are as biassed as any of us. How do I know?...I used to be one!...A reviewer that is. Plus just read Fremer et al and you can see their preferences which in most cases they don't hide. Unlike some forum posters who's biases are very apparent and unhelpful.
I would love to hear suggestions on alternatives to the 3 tables mentioned. The coin I'm spending might be chump change to many out there but to me it is anything but. Especially if we get to 20/12 kind of money. (I can get one in the UK for $14,000) so that's my budget's high end.
This is serious money and I want to get it right.
The saving grace is that if I don't then I always have the ability to sell and try again.
No big deal at all in the scheme of things.
Once again many mahalos to you all for your caring input.
This is a wonderful place for us hobbyists and it should never turn nasty or combative. This is all about music after all, not bragging rights :-)
So keep em coming audio friends, every word and suggestion is received with many thanks and much aloha!
Inna.....the system is Krell EVO-202, 402e and 505. into B+W 801. Pass Ono Phono.
Lewm...nice idea but sorry I just can't muster it enough ;-)
I was the Marketing Manager for Trio Kenwood in the UK for several years during the 70's and know their products very well.
They were easily some of the best mainstream pieces out there.
I was very involved with the L07 series when first introduced in about 1972.
First ever MOSFET amp! Awesome build quality.
Anyways...I just can't remember the L07D being that amazing but we didn't have such high resolution systems back then so I'm open to be surprised. It sure was good but I hope that the Oracle, SME or TW are way better. But I'm sure gonna pay the price!
Right now the TW has it by a head!
I think one of the main differences I'm seeing here is that I am maybe not an "audiophile".
I have been listening to music on reasonably nice gear since the early 70's but I have never in that time played the change game with any kind if regularity.
In that time I have owned maybe 4 different amps/pre amps, 3 different speaker systems, 2 tables ...you get the picture.
I just want to hear my albums in as realistically and emotionally stimulating fashion as possible.
I'm not a dd, belt drive or idler drive person just as I'm not a valve or transistor guy.
I'm a music lover.
Don't get me wrong...I like gear.
I read the mags and lust after some of the mouthwatering stuff I see...but I just don't have the time or money to feed that lust.
I stated above that I was bending toward the TW. (only to have a poster warn me of the encroaching storm????)
But when I got down to adding up all the Raven upgrades that these folk have said I would want, suitable arm and cart, isolation platform...I was spending $25k plus. Well for that coin I can buy a reasonably nice Caterham/Lotus Seven. Guess what I'm choosing!
I am very intrigued by the old stuff....301, Lenco, some DD's. However I have no chance of listening to them and they obviously have a "sound". That worries me a bit.
I am in the slightly unfortunate position of having to play it a bit safe here knowing that I might not end up with the ultimate solution...but reading these posts I'm not sure anyone here has reached that nirvana point either.
I do know that I am genuinely thankful for all the time and effort the posters here have spent helping me with this decision.
It is a fraternal group indeed despite the polarizing nature of the hobby.
I asked for more input and I sure got it....of course I am no better off for it from the standpoint of reaching a decision ;-)
Confusion continues to reign!
Many mahalos and a big Aloha to you all !
LewM....As an aside.....I really love the look of the modified Lencos. Yeh I know that one doesn't buy on looks but there is an emotion attached to that value that does drive us for sure. Out of interest what is your take on the Artisan Fidelity units? I'm assuming you prefer the Lenco over the 301?
I really like ESL's...always have. Now that's what I call music!
Artisan Fidelity sell modified Lencos in really lovely looking plinths.
They advertise here...... http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1311228359&/Lenco-L75-DCHM-lignum-vitae-St
Boring and predictable are envious traits in this hobby IMO.
I'll check the Lenco Heaven site.......
Dover...wholeheartedly agree about Oracle.
Jacques is a true gentleman and he stands by his product like no other I have experienced.
He gives me so much help and time on a table that is 30 years old.
Now that's service!
That last post was aimed at Mauintunc not Dover.
Mauintunc....I absolutely agree with you.
Oracle are a real stand up company with a great and historically significant product. That incidentally, recreates piano like a real champ!
Thanks again for the balanced input Dev.

I'm also not sold on DD's....but would say that I have not heard one of the tweaked ones in my set up. And I'm not wanting to go the tweakers route for this purchase. Like you, if I want to play later then that's a different thing.
Right now I just want to hear some vinyl again!

The TW price quoted would be an AC-3, TW arm and suitable cart....$25 big ones...price is relative for sure. Thus my quote about the Lotus.

I have so many "holes" in my system....rack...wire...arm/cart...etc that putting all my dollars into a table is not the right way to go.
So...yes the TW or whatever is very relevant and maybe is in my future but my overall short term budget suggests that a sub $10k table with some good money put into a nice (Graham?) arm and cartridge is the way to go.

It's quite amazing how easily one gets sucked into this ;-)
My wife and I were totally ready to pull the trigger on the TW until we looked at each other and laughed.......

As you so perfectly said......"It's going to be really tuff unless you get to touch, feel and listen in your own set-up but for sure something will fit your bill."
Wow...took the thought right out of my head mate.
The Dyna was right at the top of my list :-)
Sounds like a good combo eh!
Manitunc.
have you heard the Delphi MkVI?
I've read and chatted with Jacques of Oracle who says that the new bearing is a great improvement over the last one.
Glad you like your new TR .....always great to buy something and have it be all you want it to be.
Peterayer and Inna....those 2 are high on my list. Especially like the Dyna option.
Diggory...Yes I am also thinking about the Jubilee or A-90.
But just to throw a spanner in the works......
How about a SoundSmith Strain Gauge?
And here's the reason.
I live on a beach and it is very corrosive around here. My MC's don't fair too well with the salt as it corrodes the wires. I have gone through 4 carts in 10 years through failures due to corrosion or rubber failure...never a worn stylus or collapsed cantilever.
MM's fair way better.
But in chatting with Peter Ledermann of SS he explained that he could make the SG almost corrosion proof.
Add to that the fact that it is a user replaceable stylus and it starts looking attractive to me.
All the reviews are more than favorable....actually they are downright raves.
So....?
Thanks to the last posters for getting this thread back on track...and returning civility.
The new 20/3 is a huge step forward in terms of specs. Getting closer to the 30/2 in every way..except price.
As the HiFi News reviewer said...this is the sweet spot financially in the range right now.
It seems to offer a huge bang for the bucks.
@ Dover...yes this is/was/who knows! the plan. Get the AC-1 use what I have then go from there.
Or....spend less on the table...20/3 or Oracle VI and get a really good arm and cart.
Later I can trade up the table but meanwhile have a very nice front end from the get go.
The Raven is still twice the price of the other tables and I have to fight hard to not over extend myself.
Damn it's so easy getting carried away with this stuff ;-)
I think the way forward has to be balanced and take into consideration the whole system which as I stated earlier is not exactly perfect in a couple of other areas.
Gmorris.
Sage advise indeed.
And I think your summation of the 2 tables is spot on from all the reviews and comments I have read.
I also agree that the trade up is probably unlikely. This is a more prudent path than buying the Raven now and waiting to be able to afford the better arm/cart combo....forever chasing my tail.
I also think I will be over the moon with a Delphi/Graham/good cartridge combo. I believe it will make great MUSIC.
Funny you should mention the granite base.
I was chatting with Jacques of Oracle who suggested I invest my money in a really good equipment rack/table platform before getting the granite base.
I've been offered a really great deal on a regular base Delphi so getting the granite will add about $3000 to the price tag. Plenty of money for a really effective stand I would think. My current Salamander stand is hardly stable and this investment should make a big difference system wide.
Ultimately I will of course go with my own preference...but it has been enlightening to read the comments and experiences of others before plonking down this not inconsiderable chunk of change.
I'd never heard of Albert Porter until I started this thread.
So who is he and how comes so many people hang on his every word and action?
Albert bought one of these so it's got to be the best in the world kind of thing.
I'm not being critical...just puzzled by the evangelical aura surrounding his name.
No slight intended. His name came up several times here and I'd never heard of him that's all. But his opinions do get quoted a lot so I was curious.
Oh OK. Thanks for the enlightenment. Yep I would not have an opinion on that. Never heard an SP10. But that is quite something if it can outperform a Walker. I would like to hear one if that's the case.
Just read some of the threads on the subject...interesting indeed.
Is the Mk3 much better than the 2 as I see those around for not much money?
So true.
Nearly every 20/12 user I have encountered through the forums seem to prefer the XV-1s.
We will see.......
Lewm...thanks for the info.
I corresponded briefly with Albert and he stunned me with the price of the mk3's.
Wow that's big money for an old table sans arm and plinth.
Sure would love to hear what they can do when set up right....a la Porter.
Inna.
Yep that had me scratching my head too. $100k! Is any turntable worth that much money? Let me see...new Porsche 911....or record player without arm or cartridge...decisions decision!
No worries.....Not going to trust others ears but was looking for a general consensus on basic sound, build etc.
Which I believe I now have.
Actually it's no different to what I concluded before I started my thread just from reading the reviews.
Now it's just down to deciding the most important aspects of the "sound" that I and my system will be happiest with.
In any case I'm pretty sure I won't be unhappy with either of my main contenders.
I'm being offered both at great discounts so if I really don't like it I should be able to sell on without loss.
Lewm.....Yep you are correct, at least 4 tables over that price. In fact saw something the other day for $650,000!!!
I would love to hear your table...I'm very intrigued about DD. There is so much good science attached to the concept.
I am living on an island and I want something that is gonna be plug and play to a large extent.
I'd love to mess with plinths and feet and all that but I have a car to rebuild and waves to surf ;-)
Maybe one day I will pick up a Garrard or Technics or....but right now the winner of my TT search is...........
Inna.......sorry, wrong answer ;-)
It's gonna be the SME 20/12 with V-12 arm.
Now for the cartridge!