Small cable companies making preposterous claims?

There are a number of small cable companies making preposterous claims about the performance of their speaker cable. It is a pain in the ass to sort through this shit;

Especially claims that bluntly state:..... "our cable will out perform many of the major brands costing 8 to 10 times as much...." Without naming names, I think members know who they are

Is there a "legitimate" pecking order of sound quality and performance to these off-beat, small manufacturer?? If any member has auditioned some of them, please provide a list from 1 to 5 as to which speaker cables really deliver what the manufacturers's claim.

BTW, as an example in one AG thread in 2013-2014, two members were arguing over the unbelievable virtues of Realty Cable vs.Grover Huffman. Neither is listed on AG's directory of manufacturers
Not intending to be cynical but (here I go anyway), what makes you think the statements in question are "preposterous claims?"
In an industry that tramples all over science on a regular basis, where claims of mythical levels of improvement are the norm, where measurements are discounted because "there are things science cannot explain," where listening tests are not considered accurate, and where the target audience eats the stuff up to the point where some spend more on their cables than on their components, who can really say how big Alice is?

Most smaller companies offer free trials. I suggest trying cables from several different manufacturers, comparing to cables that you already own and enjoy, and then reporting back. It might be enlightening, entertaining or entirely as you suspect.
06-28-14: Mitch2
What makes you think the statements in question are "preposterous claims?"

I would expect that the aforesaid claims would turn out to be entirely true for many users, while not being true for many others. Which amounts to saying that IMO a high degree of correlation between cable price and cable performance in any given system should not be expected.

Why? In addition to the points mentioned by Tim (Mitch2), I would add that:

1)As seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles, cable performance is highly system dependent.

2)From a technical standpoint, it can be expected that cable performance will vary significantly depending on the technical characteristics of the components that are being connected, such as impedances. Even to the point of a comparison between two cables yielding exactly opposite results depending on what they are connecting. In past threads, such as this one, I have cited examples of situations in which exactly that can be expected to occur. (See especially both of the paragraphs in that post which begin with "one interesting example").

3)It seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles that cable performance cannot be either fully explained or fully predicted based on generally recognized science. It follows from that, however, that the cable designers have no way to accurately predict the point of demarcation between optimization of a given cable parameter or design characteristic and what may be overkill of that parameter or design characteristic, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications. Therefore it can be expected that what is likely to be a significant driver of the cost of many very expensive cables is overkill of some or all of their design parameters and characteristics, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications.

-- Al
I am totally for the one guy who uses Mu Metal for the cable conductor. Wait, he's one of the really expensive big guys! Damn!
Thank you for the measured and sensible responses from Mitch and Almarg I expected another avalanche of attacks and uncharitable remarks related to the spirit of this thread....but, hey the day is still young

Maybe what audiophiles need in terms of trying out cables, especially speaker cables is a consortium of members's cables that circulate like the dishes at a sushi bar.

Amateur spider like drones may still be of service to humanity, and audiophiles. Narrow regions of a state could be serviced by such drones delivering cables from the local consortium cable center,and then overnighted back to sender. Amazon has already experimented with this technology

As far fetched as this may sound, it has to be more efficient and helpful, than depending on the limited library of "The Cable Company" or getting on the "audition and ship back" merry-go-round

One could only wish that the mantra that..... "you get what you pay for" was as consistent for the purchase of audio components, as it is (often) for clothing, power tools, barbeque grills, or housing. But it seems as I noted in previous threads that VALUE in the audio business is too often measured by PRICE Unfortunately, overtime this "can" produce cynicism in the "disappointed buyer". Almarg clearly makes a similar and related point about cable designers maintaining a balance in terms of their expertise at optimization and consumer's expectations of the products they buy, especially when conditioned to claims that manufacturers and designers cannot fulfill.
Where do you get the idea that this is not science?
I just don't get it.
Distortion is bad, fidelity is good.
These things can be measured, but unfortunately often are not.
Lets all stick our heads in the sand and pretend that we have Golden Ears.

I contend that the reason some cables sound good in some systems and bad in others is that phenomena I call stacked distortions. If it so happens that the cable distorts in a way that stacks against the other distortions in your system and masks a problem then the cable sounds good, the other way, bad.
If your cables ring and the rest of the system is dull, viola!
This happens in many subtle and not so subtle ways.
I have found that the better the system the more obvious this becomes.
Imagine a perfect system, then replace a component with one with just one flaw. The distortion it introduces would then be obvious for what it was, would it not?
Now imagine adding another distortion. The effect would be present but less obvious as it would interact with the first distortion. Now add a third and so forth. The only solution is to remove the distortions, not add more.

Some records sound terrible on your system. Why? Is it the recording?
Probably not. It is probably that the recording makes obvious a fault in your system, or its flaw and the flaw in your system compound each other.
Do you like a certain recording? Same thing.
If you look into this you will see that I am right.
A lot can be learned from this approach.
Forget about bright cables, detailed cables, smooth cables.
To answer your question about inexpensive cables I have had interconnects up to $1800 in my system. The best sound my system has produced are the $200 Grover Huffmans.
By the way talking about drones, the FAA has shot down Amazons request to use drones to deliver small packages
FAA has shot down Amazons request to use drones
It seems that quite a few audiophiles who want to turn their hobby into an enjoyable business go into cables, and I applaud them. I have nothing but best wishes for anyone who tries to turn the love of their hobby into a little profit. This gives all of us choices other than the high-priced big names--it also adds to the audio nervosa of having to make blind decisions, but there are always return policies. All of that aside, I see no reason why anyone who wants to improve their system via cables cannot make their own. There are so many good parts on the market, including quality connectors, high purity wire of all types, good dielectrics, etc, you can hardly go wrong in putting together a power cord or a speaker cable. Interconnects are a bit more demanding, but nothing is so expensive it cannot be tried once. And yes, now you will be able to say that your own cord will outperform cables costing many times more. You may even think about getting a website. Naw, forget that……..
Mitch1 is spot on. These claims can be in fact true. Test drive for yourself as that is the only way you will know. I settled on cables that sound better than cables costing up to 10x more to me.
Maybe what audiophiles need in terms of trying out cables, especially speaker cables is a consortium of members's cables that circulate like the dishes at a sushi bar.
Thank you Jim for not taking my sarcastically cynical first post as mean spirited, which it was not meant to be. I am interested in other's viewpoints on your topic and, as usual, Al has added some salient points based on his significant experience and science.
Your members circulating cables suggestion sounds like it would be fun to do. I have shared a few of my "backyard" creations with others in the past, both cables made from readily available commercial high end bulk cable and a few of my "made from scratch" efforts and I am always interested to hear how they are perceived by others in their own systems. In one case, based on some loaners I sent out, a long-time equipment designer commissioned me to make him a pair of ICs that he found to have particular merit in his system, when compared with his $3K reference wires! In addition to making one feel good, that is an example of how a guy in a garage can make stuff comparable (at least in one system) with some of the major mfg offerings.
Chris VenHaus at VH Audio is another good example of a guy who started with some ideas and a lot of trial and error, has ended up with some very well-respected cable designs that compete at any level.
So don't but them its your cash!!
"Maybe what audiophiles need in terms of trying out cables, especially speaker cables is a consortium of members's cables that circulate like the dishes at a sushi bar"

The Polk Audio forum did just that for years. Not sure if it's still happening to any degree.
Issue solved here:
What is happening is those 'world beater' cables DO sound better than 10 times more expensive cables 'IN THE CHEAP SYSTEMS owned by folks buying the 'world beater' cables.

For folks who have expensive systems, the 'world beater, but cheap' cables sound like crap. Where the expensive cables sound great.
See. problem solved. LOL
Arh and Swamprider: That was fast on the part of FAA, because if Capt Sullenberger had a problem with birds crashing into his plane, the hazard of drones buzzing into turbines would be equally lethal. However, if the FAA worked that quickly, it was to compensate for all the other times, they looked the other way on safety requirements, and airplane maintenance. Check out a show called "Air Disasters" on one of the Discovery channels.

Nevertheless, regulations on the flying and height limitations will need to be addressed soon. The spider like flyers, I mentioned above are becoming very popular. On the beach at Waikaii, there was a guy flying one. He had to point it out to me because it was probably at about two hundred feet As it descended,it sounded like a swarm of bees, but the owner's landing was flawless. Entry level price tags, I was told is about $1500 depending on the type of swivel-mounted camera the buyer selects.( almost the same price of an overpriced IC's or speaker cables!!!!!)

Interestingly a few days later, I saw him again filming a couple who had just married on the beach. He was able to photograph them at several altitude levels and then play it back for them on his I-phone....all WITHOUT breaking the brides nose or decapitating the groom

He was all for strict regulations of these devices. He had previously lost one to a thief, and another to a mishap landing in the blue Pacific. Thanks to those who responded so far
At least some of the recent drone models, such as a DJI model I'm aware of which sells for a bit under the $1500 amount you mentioned, have "no fly zones" programmed into them, which prevent them from flying near airports. (The drone knows where it is via GPS). Also, I vaguely recall that there may already be in place a maximum altitude regulation of something like 400 feet. Enforcement is another matter, of course.

-- Al
Lots of good stuff here. In following this thread, I kept thinking I Don't care what is promised but you better deliver. VH audio was cited above. Try getting Chris to compare his products to others. Good luck, he won't. He lets his customers talk for him. He offers a generous trial period. Good approach, if you ask me.
Elizabeth is absolutely correct. It's like comparing apples with oranges. In a low end system, decent cables can make it sound great. Those same "world beater" cables, when used in an upper end or high resolution system, are likely to sound like crap.
In a low end system, decent cables can make it sound great. Those same "world beater" cables, when used in an upper end or high resolution system, are likely to sound like crap.
Although he is most likely too modest to say so, I would point out that Tim's (Mitch2's) system, for one, is far from low end, and his experience as an audiophile, cables included, is certainly formidable. Yet as noted in his system description thread:
I have tried many cables over the years and after coming full circle it is my experience that while cables do make a difference, you can get very good sound with a variety of DIY options. Currently, I have found a sweet spot using Jupiter Condenser 6N copper in cotton cables and high quality connectors. I also have cables here by Furutech, Neotech and Harmonic Technology that I have terminated and which sound very good. I will never again spend big bucks on manufacturered cables, although I do admit having one Isoclean Auto Focus power cord that I run to my 60 A3 II conditioner.
I'm sure that there are many others who have similarly "come full circle."

It has long been my suspicion that those having very high end systems tend to give low priced cables less than equal opportunity in their choices of which cables to evaluate in their systems. Why? Because of an expectation that more expensive = better, at least in an expensive system. Exactly the philosophy expressed in your post.

-- Al
Yes, and my system is far from low end and a culmination of decades of learning and trial and error. Folks have their opinions and some have strong ones, but that does not mean they are based on truth and reality.
Sunnyjim- not sure if it made the press in the hue pacific but here in old New England (pun intended, a 25 year old woman beat the crap out of a 15 y.o. Cause he was flying quad copter type r.c. Device w a camera at the beach on a sunny but cool day and even tho she was fully clothed she assumed he was up to no good. She called the cops and then confronted and beat home. Luckily he recorded it on his cell phone so when the cops came SHE was the one who ended up in the slammer!

I spent a couple hundred on my speaker cables and they are indeed better than cables costing 10x in my system. No, I don't have a JC Penny MCS Series receiver and speakers with an 8 track source.
Thanks, Bill (Grannyring). For those who may not know, Grannyring's credentials as an experienced high end audiophile are about as distinguished as they come.

-- Al
To Swampwalker: Interesting story; but that young woman needs to chill. I have yet to come across a law which prohibits looking,or even staring. She should have been flattered. As you can imagine, here in the tropical paradise of Hawaii, such self-consciousness will not wash,and not because of hordes of horny 15 year olds roaming the beaches. They don't need an RC spider helicopter with camera to get a peek at a bare ass, just a pair of eyes

Back to the cable issue, I recently had in line a pair of Rogue speaker cables bought on a e-bay. The seller made preposterous claims, but what could I lose for 95.00 for 12 ft single wire pair including shipping. I think what Almarg said was in operation, that is, if the cables sound bad, or even mediocre,I have lost nothing.

To my great surprise, they sounded quite good, that is, musical, dynamic, and with excellent deep bass. I have a moderately expensive system which is Acoustic Zen Adagios, a Rogue hybrid integrated amp and the original Rega Apollo.

Well over about two week of listening, the cons of this inexpensive cable, became greater than the pros. HOWEVER,I could have lived with them. IMHO, these cables could easily fit into a 4K system, and not loose face.

I then plugged in my backup Audio Art SC-5 speaker into the system which were about $240.00 for 4 meters They sounded smoother and were not forward. The SC-5 was also a tad more coherent, but there were sonic aspects of the budget cable that were superior, the bass of the Rogue outclassed the AA's

However, I think, why I am again questing for a better sounding speaker cable than the Rogue budget wire( and the AA) IS: I have talked myself into spending more money. The mantra that says more expensive is better, and that the speakers deserve a much better cable to realize their peak performance. There is a partial truth in that mantra, but I must disagree with Ms. Elizabeth; because, the budget Rogue cable requitted itself quite well even though the Audio Art was better. So inexpensive,speaker cables often buoyed up by outrageous claims can sound more than acceptable or even good in a high end system, and not necessarily sound like "crap"

Sometimes you get "more" than what you paid for, but to get less for thousands of dollars is a purchase that needs rethinking.
Somehow I'm just schlepping along with Kimber Hero balanced I/Cs between my CDP >> linestage >> amp. And Kimber 8TC speaker cables.

I bought "custom" low resistance and low capacitance SE cables for my turntable >> phono pre >> linestage. For some reason, 19 pF per foot comes to mind. Tom Tutay ... who some may know of ... made the phono cabling for me for a **very"" reasonable price.

Although I dropped some bucks for the Kimbers, I wonder if I could have done as well or better if Tom made me the other I/Cs.

Could I squeeze more if I dropped a couple of grand on cabling ... maybe. But I'll never know because I have no intension of spending any more. Heck ... 15 years ago, I used lamp wire for my speakers and was happy. I guess I'm not a real audiophile ... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Bummer. :(


As each system is unique, there does not seem to be a single choice for all.

Because you singled out Reality Cables when starting this thread, it should be pointed out that the products from Gregg Straley have been used by me and others for many years with very great satisfaction.

With Reality Cables and other reputable cable builders offering money back opportunities for you to listen in your own system, let your own ears decide about relative value.
My own expectation is that you will be impressed just how much high end performance is available at reasonable cost.
One of my big questions and what I really want to know as someone interested in this stuff is what companies or products are out there that make seemingly preposterous or even just lofty claims that people have found to turn out to be true? I want to know about any such company or product, not just cables, and if so why, based on actual experience.

I'm not sure I have heard much of anything to-date that indicates to me any particular product or vendor is just flat out better than many others. Rather, its the skill, knowledge, and efort put forth by the listener in choosing their gear wisely that seems to be the key.
Were no. Uno around these parts if that helps any, mask man.
See if they will loan you any to prove their claim. Then you can buy theirs and sell your current one.
"06-29-14: Rlb61
Elizabeth is absolutely correct. It's like comparing apples with oranges. In a low end system, decent cables can make it sound great. Those same "world beater" cables, when used in an upper end or high resolution system, are likely to sound like crap."

I think she was being sarcastic in response to the dumb statement she quoted.
Cable Companies can make any preposterous claims as much as they wanted to. Because audiophile claims cable is magic, Engineer claims cable is science and music professional claim cable is a myth (YOUTUBE @ Audio Myths)...etc...
Cable is just one of thousand component in your system. They are part of the electronic equation. All Circuit components have impedance and cables also have an impedance value, called characteristic impedance. Different cable = Different valve = Different sound = Different $$$$.....etc.
Each Cable with unique design to act as an equalizer to manipulating the sound of intent and change the music individually. That why big and small cable companies able to legitimatly making preposterous claims. Whether you like it or want to pay more for it is all up to you.

I agree. There is so much BS out there -- not only on the part of the small cable companies. And there is nothing to stop them from saying what they want to say. And, of course, it is your choice whose products to avoid. I could go into my experience with various small and not-so-small cable makers. But my post would be disallowed for ruffling too many feathers. So, I will desist. You can PM me if you wish.
I think Coconut Audio ('s claims for their $15,000 per double pair seem interesting:

"We use a complex array of resonant frequencies to filter out noise from the audio system by using 100% efficient natural minerals.

A resonant frequency is a natural frequency of vibration determined by the physical parameters of the vibrating object. It is easy to get an object to vibrate at its resonant frequencies, hard to get it to vibrate at other frequencies. A vibrating object will pick out its resonant frequencies from a complex excitation and vibrate at those frequencies, essentially "filtering out" other frequencies present in the excitation.

In other words, placing our product touching the audio chassis, will enhance the music frequencies and leave the noise behind.

To do this, we use a mixture of quartz crystals, ore and minerals. These formulas were fine-tuned by ear to 0.01 gram accuracy using months of critical listening."
Swampwalker, I think that drone came with the Clark Kent X-Ray vision option.

Bjesien- ah, yes. I neglected to read the full story. Now I see the woman's name was Lois...lane;-).
In this internet day and age, any outrageous claim is not sustainable. Whether you are an engineer or pure marketeer, you know that a brand takes a long time to build and is easily destroyed.

Some threads have indeed too many fanboys and some working very hard to promote a certain product.

But the journey is certainly very enjoyable for those who keep their ears and their minds open. Regular sanity checks on budget distribution is a must.
“Jazzonthehudson”: Three superb paragraphs, especially the last one:
But the journey is certainly very enjoyable for those who keep their ears and their minds open. Regular sanity checks on budget distribution is a must.

IMHO, regarding people, places and things, after acquiring very few data points, far too often, our minds slam shut, a conclusion is made and no more data input is allowed! With enough experiences of doing the opposite and having first impressions and even theorems quashed, one soon realizes that there are so many really good things in-life that might otherwise have been missed, because a 100% conclusion was arrived at too hastily, before having all of the facts, or because we simply wanted to believe etc….

So, thanks for the reminder and insight “Jazzonthehudson”, it's never easy finding hidden audio gems, but one certainly can't do so with their ears and minds closed!!
I've found $50 or $200 cables often sound better tonally than something much more expensive...initially. For me, they sound more accurate tonally. But then gradually I start hearing their muddled presentation, perhaps some darkness, and soon realize the "better" is just differences rather than better.
Thank God the large companies aren't making preposterous claims.
If there are some smaller companies making boastful claims, surely there are large companies doing the same? I concur, though, with the idea that it's all in the ear of the beholder.
I would say that large cable companies are doing this also, just that the small cable companies cables are usually cheaper but not always... sometimes better, sometimes not...
RNA was joking....
Ha ha....and about as obvious as sarcasm can be :^ )
Come on, the large companies make just as large false claims about why and how their cables work.
Indeed, what most of the large companies say are every bit as preposterous. They just have a more refined way of spouting their BS. And they have a complicit press that fawns over their products rather than challenge the BS.
I think that indeed many companies make very bold claims, big and small. Sometimes smaller companies just try to motivate new customers to try their products with the "exceptional" good quality for the absurdly low price to make the risk of betting your money on something rather unknown seem worthwile.
The most ironic cases I remember are the "new cable brands" that state that their very affordable top of the line cable is at least as good as the much more expensive top cables from the big cable companies, and than some time later when their brand name is settled they start bringing out a better, more expensive top model and most of the times go on with this until their top of the bill cables are about the same price as the ones from the more known brands.
Man, this is believable!
And man does their new top of the line cable trounce the top of the line cable from the already known brands because even their about 12 times less expensive former top of the line already sounds at least just as good!
Barto, did you get that from the super secret book titled, "Marketing Plan for Start-Up Cable Companies"?
You've read it too Mitch?
The subject of this thread should be "Cable Companies Making Preposterous Claims". You can leave off the word small. There is nothing that small companies do that large companies do not also do -- and in an even bigger way. IMO.
I stick with Purist and Stealth to great companies!!!