Both tubes have a high chance of being microphonic. A certain degree of microphonics is what makes them sound so good (creating an enormous image), but 50% of the pinch waist and CCa tubes I have tried have been unacceptably microphonic. Frankly, I'd avoid both.
That said, I prefer the pinch waist 6922. To me, it has more body and sounds less mechanical than the CCa.
CCa: What is It?
Die folgende Valvo-CCa ist keine der "Gelben Serie" zugehörende, sie ist auch nicht tailliert.
Es ist eine weiss gestempelte CCa die für die Post bestimmt war und auch entsprechend bezeichnet wurde.
(Die Namensgebung CCa impliziert schon die Post-Zugehörigkeit, aber nur bei dieser wurde es zusätzlich auf der Röhre angegeben.)
Sie besitzt den eingeätzten Code 7LH, darunter (Delta) 4D5.
Die CCa ist eine Poströhre. Also eine speziell für die Post selektierte.
(Besonders Rauscharm, Klingarm, besonders Langlebig.)
"Klingarm" is the term for low microphonics.
You often see Telefunken EF12K or AC701K, the K means Klingarm
CCa was an E88CC specially selected for "Post Germany"; special low noise, low microphonic, long-life 6922.
Philips had similar selections for the "Dutch Post", some tubes are selected had "PTT" etched.
The "German and Dutch Post" = telephone, telegraphie, telex, and the postal system.
Much of the telephone centrals used tube equipment and for telephone equipment you want a "noise-free" enviroment.
The letters "CC" probabably equates to "double triode", and/or a for special design. I've been using the Siemens (pre-70's) CCa's for years in my equipment because I hate microphonics, and they are the least microphonic tube in the 6922 family that I could find(I tried a bunch of the high dollar ones). I've got six in my BAT VK-D5 right now. Microphonics are a noise generated by vibrations in(or around) the tube, and these were specially designed to have much less than ordinary 6922's(as stated in the above definition). If you go the CCa route, be certain to find the pre-70's vintage(dull grey plate below the getter support and no internal date code plate). The later ones are very strident. Given the Siemens CCa's excellent transparency, clarity, timbre, imaging, sound staging and frequency extention(in both directions)- it's 10,000 hour life expectancy makes the seemingly high price of NOS ones actually a bargain. Given that you are planning to use them in a pre-amp: I WOULD try to find some that were tested for noise, and pre-amp "graded" (as with any tube intended for that circuit).
Kool info you have there. Are you German by any chance?
Why don't you sell me two of the six you have and I will be done with it. =8^)
I bet you even have six more in your stash.
Glory- Where are you located? I've got a spare pair of NOS Siemens CCa's and E188CC's we could try in your rig, if you're somewhere in Indiana. Not German- But I've bought a bunch of tubes from there over the years. The Internet makes it easy to do your homework, before spending a lot of money. Do you enjoy a very clean, liquid midrange, or a warmer(some people call it, "tubier") presentation?
I am in Sunny Destin, FL. one block from the Gulf of Mexico.
Check pics on my system.
You are welcome to come down when it is -10* or 30*. I have access to my client's beach homes in Seaside FL. Jim Carry did the Truman Show there.
Clean, liquid mids for me.
I'm usually at Deland Airport Thanksgiving week for the Skydiving party they host every year. I was in Perry for a few months last year(whatta hole!). If you're into the music and not the tube- the CCa's for you. The pre-70's vintage just gets out of the way of the music. I had the Siemens E188CC's in a modded SP-14 a few years back, and they were very lucid(and quiet) too- (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=611&catid=42). Kevin has the CCa's also, but I don't know if they are the early ones.
Mr G- Just in case you're looking at the CCa's on eBay: There are some tubes listed there that the seller claims are 60's vintage. They aren't! They've got the shiny plates and internal date code that indicate the very bright(strident) version.
Sam has a pair of CCa 50's dull sheild with readings of 86/83 82/67
He said the CCa 50's tubes can read out like this and is not uncommon.
What think you?
I think significantly better prices for equivalent tubes can be found elsewhere, but it's your dough...
Avoid E-Bay seller "realjazzcat".
Sam's prices are always high. Very similar to Brendan at Tube World who may have the highest prices of any tube vendor.
If you do a little homework you should be able to find comparable tubes at much lower prices.
Check with Andy at Vintage Tube Services and Audiogon member Jsutter. Both offer high quality products at real world prices.
Did realjazzcat(aka tubemuseum) rip you off too Tvad? he's the only one I've been stuck by in 5 years of tube buying there. Mr G- I would pass on those CCa's. That one weaker triode section will cost you in balance, imaging and sound stage. Generally CCa's are much better matched(triode to triode)than that. Look up 'audiotubes_de' (http://myworld.ebay.com/audiotubes_de) on eBay, and contact him. He doesn't have any CCa's listed right now, but may have some in stock(West German seller and very dependable).
Well, the cat's out of the bag...
Rodman999's recommendation of "audiotubes_de" is about the best I can imagine. Great seller. Excellent tubes. Equally good prices.
Well, the cat's out of the bag... (GOOD ONE- LOL!)
Mr G- The Lector is one of the only CDPs that I'd consider trading in my VK-D5 for(the Linn CD12 being the other). I was wondering- What tubes are you using in your 7T? Have you tried any of the 6201's in there? You might find that digital sucks less with a good tube in the mouth of the beast(so to speak). I'd be forced to find some Siemens E801CC's or Tele ECC801S's for it.
OOPS(typo)- Make that the Siemens E81CC(or ECC801S).
"Did realjazzcat(aka tubemuseum) rip you off too Tvad? he's the only one I've been stuck by in 5 years of tube buying there."
Realjazzcat has ripped off MANY people. He would take standard tubes, gold-plate the pins and then pass them off as genuine factory premium tubes (Mullard 10M, 6922s and ECC803S).
He was the only one selling gold-pin Telefunken 12AX7s that did not have frame-grid plates. When confronted about this he made up all sorts of explanations including that they were a special military issue. When we further exposed his scam, including the fact that he purchased small quantities of gold bullion on eBay, he stopped selling them. Of course no one else ever sold them again.
He currently preys on tube newbies and foreigners (check his recent feedback) who can't read past the hype, BS or outright lies in his auction descriptions. Since they don't know better, they leave him positive feedback.
Many of you know that I have led the campaign to expose this scammer and I will continue to do so. His claims are outrageous and his prices are high. He's a CON MAN that is good at his craft my creating perceived value where none exists. Don't support this SCAMMER!
P.S. He was also caught many times shill bidding his auctions. Of course eBay did nothing about it even though plenty of evidence was given. If you know anything about eBay, this is no surprise as they always support people who make money for them.
Keep up the crusade Gerrye! Neither eBay, nor Paypal are there to protect the consumer, but rather- to make LOTS of money. Good info, and much homework with regards to tubes are our only means of defence against this type of fraud. As I always say, "Caveat Emptor"!
I'll just say I did not have a good experience with "realjazzcat" aka "tubemuseum", and I'll leave it at that.
Sam has the mismatched sections and Andy has the date code and shiny sheild.
Andy thinks people are nuts about the dull/shiny shield. Never did like talking to him.
VV Tubes Now there's a guy that knows how to use the F word. F this and F that. F Joe's tube lore. FFFFFFFFFFFF AND SOME MORE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF'S No thank you.
On the 'Gon there is a Amperex 7308 WL GP Sheild. Is it as good as the 6922 WL GP Sheild?
Brent Jessee has been fine but his prices are going up^.
Of all the Amperex tube variants (6DJ8, 6922, 7308), I always preferred the Amperex 6922 PQ USA White Shield. I thought they sounded very, very close to the 6922 Pinch Waist, and without the astronomical pricing and dicey microphonics issue that plagues the Pinch Waist tubes and makes good ones so difficult to find.
Andy's the best in the business. Period. However, he does have a negative opinion of Siemens CCa tubes, primarily because he has found many that have not measured up to his quality control criteria. Remember I wrote that many CCa are microphonic?
Even one of the CCa tubes I purchased from the German gentleman mentioned above was microphonic and required shipping back to Germany for an exchange.
Brent Jessee has a matched pair for $225.00. I guess I will flip the switch and go for it.
The last pair of this type tube I got off of EBay and they were bad.
Brent is easy to talk to and has a 30 day return policy.
I had a pair of Seimans CCa DS and I sold them for $300.00. Hello McFly.
Andy thinks the people that know about the older CCa's are nuts because all he has to sell are the later ear-hair-burning versions. Not hard to figure out: Ignorance is bliss, and profitable too. Enjoy whatever you settle on.
I am using E81CC Mullard/Valvo '66 & CBS 7728 in the Lector T7 MK3. For digital it is, at times, good sounding
When I was running the Lector for two weeks because of changes in my vinyl setup I really did think it was sounding GREAT. Boy was I deceived as I saw the light when I got the TT back up and running.
He that has ears to hear let him hear what the analogphiles have to say. And some having ears to hear hear not.
You have A..Y pegged.
At least you're at the top of the digital ladder. No doubt about analog(done right)though. I SO miss the days when direct-to-discs, original master/virgin vinyl, 1/2 speed mastered, MFSL, Sheffield, Crystal Clear, TELARC, JVC Soundstream, Nautilus, CBS Masterworks, ET AL were inexpensive and plentiful. Technology does march backwards at times doesn't it?
Andy thinks the people that know about the older CCa's are nuts because all he has to sell are the later ear-hair-burning versions.
I don't think that's true. I believe from what he has told me that his opinion of CCA tubes stems from seeing and testing a substantial percentage of rejects. He generally doesn't look favorably upon those who pay exorbitant prices for questionable tubes. Can't blame him for trying to bring some reality to the table. At least I can't blame him.
Andy has always treated me very well, and he has sold me by far the best quality tubes of the varieties I have purchased from him.
Obviously, I purchased my CCa elsewhere. So be it.
There are opinions, and then there are facts. Siemens made no CCa's with shiny plates and internal date codes in the early 60's. From the 50's through 1965 they had the dull grey plate(electrostatic shield) under the getter support. From 1966 to the 80's, they had the shiny silver/chrome shield and internal date code plate(and a major difference in sonics). Once one hears those two iterations compared, without any other variables, no argument remains. That's given a system that is capable of resolving the differences(easy), ears not attached to a head convinced of preconceived notions(not so easy) and a mind able to admit the truth(even harder). Then again- No doubt there are systems so muted in their high frequency reproduction that they can use a boost there. As always- Whatever works for you is fine with me. Happy listening!
I am aware of all the info you posted. I've been buying dull grey plate CCa tubes for many years. I have not debated the merits of grey versus shiny support CCa tubes.
I know that good quality, non-microphonic, early 60s grey riser CCa tubes sound exceptional, and the best of the Siemens 6922 family (but not really my cup of tea in the long run).
Only about 60% of the dull grey support Siemens CCa tubes I have purchased have been good (including from our friend in Germany, although his ratio of good to bad has been higher). The rest have been junk.
So, IMO CCa tubes represent a bit of a risky purchase. If one can find a dealer who will accept returns, the risk is significantly lessened.
I agree 100% with everything you said about Andy. I was wondering if you could recommend another reasonable, reliable tube source, with a more extensive inventory, for those tubes that Andy doesn't carry.
Phaelon, that depends on the tubes you seek.
Upscale Audio seems to be one. Jim McShane is another, although I have not purchased from him.
The German source mentioned in this thread is another.
Basically, I believe it's critical to have a return privilege for tubes, even if it's a short one. If a seller doesn't offer one if asked, then I'd buy elsewhere.
Some people are threatened or intimidated by Andy's knowledge.
He's by far the best tube vendor I've ever dealt with.
Audiogon member Jsutter sells terrific tubes at very fair prices but doesn't have an inventory as large as Andy.
Mr T- I couldn't agree more about the risk involved buying NOS CCa tubes, or any others for that matter. Finding someone that has the right tester, knows how to correctly use it and is honest about the results is becoming increasingly hard to do. And(like any other commodity) as the price increases, so does the number of crooks. Most of the tubes I've purchased in the last few years came from Germany, Argentina(lots of Germans down there) or Australia, and those have all been excellent. Perhaps the people in those countries have a stronger moral code or something. Still- I've found myself grilling sellers before purchasing anything(I hate having to feel that's necessary). You may have noticed me ending a few posts with, "CAVEAT EMPTOR!"
Is the tubes on Ebay by cry baby world LOL the one's to get?
How about the second and third CCa on buy it now?
Mr G- Yes: The tubes that my-baby-world is selling are the right ones. Unfortunately: no readings are given for them. The two pair with the $306 buy-it-now price are clocked in the pics so as to hide the shield below the getter support. I would send the seller an e-mail requesting better pics of what he is purveying.
He said no internal date codes.
Try for a week and return for a refund.
Mr G- Sounds like a no-risk deal. He must be confident of the quality of those tubes. The $$ seems high, but I've not been tracking the cost of CCa's for a few months. Listen to them and judge if they deliver the value in music. Personally- I couldn't do without them in my present system(they spoiled me).
The Siemens CCa for sale on the Gon by Stance 1 I bought. There are some pics of the tubes on his ad. Is this the tube you speak of?
You are a very helpful member in this community of audio nuts. Your thoughts on this tube are spot on from what I am hearing in my system.
I did have this tube at one time but my system is no where the same as it was back then. I was running it in a Audio Note dac ( God help me ) God did help me snap out of all that mess and entanglament. I am free, free, free alast, Oh, sorry I got carried away with my dileverence.
A very different sound than the Amperex WL GP PQ 6922 D getter. It takes the top end to the very limit of being to much of a good thing. It my have its toes over the line at times but you are rewarded with a very open and clear sound.
For some reason these tubes seem quiet and non microphonic. I only got one hour with them so maybe they will "break in" some.
There are no internal codes inside the tubes.
Mr G- That's affirmative. His are the correct vintage. Enjoy your music!!
Thanks for your leadership in buying the CCa tubes.
I like them very much.
I try to lead those with ears in the right directions. It makes my day to know that you are enjoying your music through them. Happy listening!!
This has been a subject(the original posting question)that has interested me for years!Yet,even with all these responses,I feel I still am in the dark regarding which is ultimately the better tube(all things being equal).
I've had good success with Amperex 7308,Ediswan 6922's(CV 5358 and 2492),and now some primo CCa's( I keep the CCa's in my phonostage as of now)....The older dreck I've tried,I won't even mention.
My friend(with almost identical equip)has gotten ripped off with dreck Teles,and we were both underwhelmed with the low noise/good testing Mullards we tried.He also has superb Amperex 6922 PQ U.S.,which I think we should A/B against his current fav,the CCa's.Might be interesting,now that he's made equip changes.
Back to the original post question....I wish these were some folks who could "reliably" make the "comparison" of the CCa's against the PW's!
I now live with superb CCa's,but the "aura" of the PW does exist,and there really does NOT seem to be a reliable comparison,other than Joe's Tube Lore(a fun read)who uses a digital based system for his opinions!
In my case,I have a three tube phonostage,and am always wondering if I could get more with a nice threesome(I know where some are,but very expensive)of PW's,if I was to switch from the current CCa residents.
Mine are very quiet and I like them,but the reputation of the PW still fascinates me.
Btw,I have six(two additional/seperate back-up sets for my phonostage)very low noise Ediswan 6922's purchased years ago from Upscale Audio(before you "HAD" to buy equip too,in order to buy tubes).They are very good substitutes for my CCa's,and I keep them in case my 10,000 hr(supposedly) tubes go down.The Ediswan's I have are quite good."PLatinum Series" with much better low-noise numbers that Upscale Audio has been selling in the last few years.One reason I keep them.
Yet,I DO wish there was more feedback regarding the CCa vs PW,based on BOTH being in tip top shape,and just comparing the characteristics of sound!
Guess we'll never know -:)
Tvad,well I don't know why you seem to be ruffled by my comments.It is not to criticise anyone.But you do appear to be irritated.Sorry!
I still don't see anyone(including you)who has made any thorough,or meaningful comparisons.Enough good input,to make someone spend the kind of money these tubes command.
You basically say, "they are both microphonic,and you would stay away from both".But,you prefer the PW's.
Sorry,but that just is not much of a comparison,and I am not trying to be a smart-ass!It is just not much to go by.
Hence my comments,which basically was meant as a lament,for the lack of "enough feedback"(besides the "I like A vs B" one liners,which seems to be the extent of info on the subject).
At the asking price of NOS PW's,for an individual to find out for themselves,I was hoping to see a bit more.....That's it!Why so peeved?
So I stand by my comments which "only" reflect my remorse,for the lack of meaningful input!
I made comments in another thread about these tubes, which frankly I
mistakenly thought I made here, and then realized you likely hadn't read.
Therefore, I deleted my post above.
Since I may be interested in pulling the trigger on a pricey threesome of PW's could you "please" give some descriptive/comparative input?
I'd really be interested in your comments!
There are some good comments from several members in this thread.
If you have any experience with German cars, I would characterize the
Siemens CCa as Porsche 911, and Amperex PW 6922 as BMW 540i. Both are fast and precise. The BMW has a certain suppleness that ever-so-slightly smooths rough roads while still providing the driver with excellent road response, while the Porsche transmits the road surface untouched.
Both tubes create very a large image size IMO, larger than any other tube in
the 6DJ8/6922/7308 family, and each takes treble response right up to the
line of being "too much of a good thing" without crossing over the edge. It's
this treble extension that provides the outstanding spatial cues. I believe the
CCa can be too exacting at times, whereas the Amperex are generally more
forgiving...but this is just my opinion in my system.
Tvad,thanks...quite well put!
So I guess I need to decide if I would sell my Porsche,to get the BM'R -:)
Btw,I drive an all wheel drive Subaru,and am embarrased to say(in this company) I love it!
For the Subaru comparable tube, look for the Amperex 6922 PQ USA White label. 95% of the Amperex Pinch Waist 6922 PQ without the astronomical cost or spotty reliability.
Dvad,do you like the Amperex 6922 PQ USA White Label better than a very good set of CCa's?
I vote for Amperex!!! much better!!!
Have you had the experence with both tubes in your system to say that the Amperex is better?
I wonder why no one has mentioned the Siemens E188CC/7308 as an alternative. The high end is just slightly relaxed(ala the PW), but the tube still retains the liquid/3D midrange of the CCa. A slightly more controlled bottom(but no loss of extension)compared to the PW. I've a pair of these as my "back-ups".