Should I buy a VPI SCOUTMASTER. I OWN 25 RECORDS.

Oops, my mistake.
But then it’s just like my argument how inconvenient the MC cartridges really are. Does that mean a Hana charge 80% of retail to rebuild or completely change their cart officially via distributors ?

Yes, MC cartridge replacement is typically about 80% cost of new. I don’t consider it very inconvenient. It’s simply a a matter of mailing the old cart to the dealer and receiving a brand-new one in return. That’s how most MC cart exchanges are handled these days. It’s not like Soundsmith, where you have to wait for them to retip your original cartridge, though that’s probably still the case with some esoteric carts like some of the Koetsus.

So the only real advantages of MM are that you can order a replacement stylus and not have to be without a cart for a few days. That and you don’t necessarily have to realign it each time (though often times realignment is necessary as no two stylus/cantilever assemblies are truly identical).

One disadvantage of MM is that stylus assemblies tend to have a rather loose mating with their cartridge housings. Any slight bit of tolerance there will result in some amount of signal distortion vs the fixed assemblies of an MC. Further, MCs have the well-known advantage of a lower moving mass - similar to the advantage of Soundsmiths MI carts. Lower moving mass is a big advantage according to PL of SS, and it applies to MCs as well as MIs.

The problem with MCs in terms of cost is that most examples under $500 U.S. are inferior sounding to a good MM. People try a $350 MC from Denon or Ortofon, realize it’s crap, then swear off MCs all together. Typically, MCs under $1K don’t sound all that good. That’s where Excel stepped in and changed the game with their relatively affordable Hana series. I’ve had some quite respectable MMs with Microline and SAS diamonds. They’re good and I could live with them if I had to, but a Hana SL or ML are indeed in another league if setup correctly and mated with a decent phono stage. That said, one of the salesmen at my local hifi shop traded his Clearaudio Maestro V2 (Micro HD stylus/ boron cantilever) for the $450 Hana EL and didn’t look back. I was surprised by this but the guy is pretty well versed with all things analog.

One disadvantage of MM is that stylus assemblies tend to have a rather loose mating with their cartridge housings. Any slight bit of tolerance there will result in some amount of signal distortion vs the fixed assemblies of an MC. Further, MCs have the well-known advantage of a lower moving mass - similar to the advantage of Soundsmiths MI carts. Lower moving mass is a big advantage according to PL of SS, and it applies to MCs as well as MIs.

@helomech Most of the well designed MM/MI have a stylus assembly that screwed to the cartridge body (ADC TRX, Sony XL-50, Technics P100 and P205 series ... ), but even without that screw pulling a stylus away from a Grado cartridge is a challenge, did you ever tried ?

Some of the best MM cartridge have extremely low moving mass too, read about Audio-Technica AT-ML180 OCC or Technics P100c mk4 just to name a few with the lowest possible moving mass.

MC cartridge replacement is typically about 80% cost of new. I don’t consider it very inconvenient. It’s simply a a matter of mailing the old cart to the dealer and receiving a brand-new one in return.

I do. It’s not that simple if your LOMC cartridge cost $4500 and to replace it (when the stylus is worn) you will have to pay 60% of the new cart again. It not always 80%, but even 60% from $4500 is $2700 ! In the MC world even $4500 is not the highest price and i had those cartridges before (never again).

That’s where Excel stepped in and changed the game with their relatively affordable Hana series.

The Excel stepped into the game in the 70’s with wide range of cartridges, they made cartridges for others like SAEC and Argent long time ago. WHy do you think their new design is any better ? Here is my thread about earlier Excel Sound work for American brand Argent in the 80’s

Totally forgot about the stylus!!! Ok, so if I get a Hana SL how long will it last vs say a 500 dollar moving magnet? 

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff ... go big or go home! Audiophilia is not about rationality, it is about passion for the music and the joy of conjuring that emotion from your own equipment, built by people whose work is to distill their own passion into their products. People like Harry Weisfeld and his family.

Buy the VPI and stick with the Memorial arm. VPI unipivot is excellent. I have one on my Classic 3 and would not trade it for a gimballed arm. (I would like to try the new 3D printed arm, however!)

Buy the best cartridge you can afford. It should match the tone arm. Lyra and Dynavector are good choices, but so are many others. I have a Dynavector TKR and love it. Very balanced, very dynamic. But as with any low output MC, be sure to get a phono stage with enough gain. Your preamp will do fine for now.

Vinyl records provide joy beyond the music. There is tactile satisfaction and the zen of ceremony in playing them. As others have stated, a record in pristine condition will have no discernible background noise and very few tics and pops. If you collect old classics that may be scratched or otherwise abused, buy a Sugar Cube and they will sound as clean as a CD. An occasional tic or pop from static electricity is no more annoying than the sound of a zipper at a rock concert.

One more thing ...  

As for old records vs. new … just go for it! There are no rules. Some remasters sound better than the originals, some do not. The sport is in the listening. I have thousands of LP’s, some sixty-year-old originals (the first record I ever bought brand new is now 58 years old!), some remasters and some new releases. If have not found the sound quality of these to be a function of their age, but rather of their pedigree.

There is one category in which vinyl has a monopoly, direct-to-disc. The best of these are simply stupendous and cannot be equaled by any digital means. Look for titles from M&K, Sheffield Lab and Chasing The Dragon.

As for remasters, I must give homage to one man who should be canonized for his amazing contributions to lovers of music, Chad Kassem.  He has been remastering albums of many genres with an attention to detail and commitment to quality that in most cases surpasses the original by a wide margin. I have many hundred of his remasters, mostly on the Classic Records and Analogue Productions labels. The worst of them is fully equal to its original and most are far better. Do yourself a favor and buy them all (I’m still working on it!) Or buy them from him in person at AXPONA (he is Acoustic Sounds) in April and tell him Dave sent you.

Another source of inspiration, who should be canonized as well, is Michael Fremer. Check out his blog Analog Planet, sponsored by Stereophile magazine, for inspiring reviews of both technology and recordings

I am so pumped up about VINYL!!! I am driven to do this!!! It's the old VPI SCOUTMASTER  VS REGA RP8. Which one would you goners get?

Dear @jeffvegas : I don't know you but I don't like mediocrity/average audio items, digital or analog.

All the advises here for analog and what you are asking for are in the mediocrity land, belongs to this territory.

In the digital domain the advises are in the mediocrity level too as that Benchmark.

If you like the mediocrity then go for what ever you think you need.

If you don't like and don't want stay in that mediocrity then you need to make a wise decision. In the analog alternative you need a phono cartridge in the 3K-5k   price range and only for the cartridge. You need that cartridge along a TT, a tonearm ( not unipivot, no matters what. ) and a first rate phono stage and you can't do it for less than 10K.

In the digital alternative you can go out of the mediocrity starting at your budget of 4K and up for the DAC.

Everything can " sounds " but not everything can sounds out of the mediocrity. Is up to you not the other gentlemans ( including me. ) in this thread.

R.

Well the audio GOD has spoken, let us all take note. We are not worthy

Buy a Technics SL1200 used from Japan with a Nagoaka MP-200 cartridge and a Shiits Mani phone stage, all for a lot less than that turntable on its own. Much better sound quality also.

Totally forgot about the stylus!!! Ok, so if I get a Hana SL how long will it last vs say a 500 dollar moving magnet?

600 hrs and your Shibata stylus is almost worn out, and i think you have no idea what you can do with it, no one never answered my question regarding Hana (How a customer can get new stylus or new cartridge from the manufacturer of Hana, what’s the cost ?)

With decent MM you can simply buy new stylus with great profile for about $300-400 and your old cartridge is new again. If your MM cartridge is something like Grace you can by different styli (different cantilevers and different diamonds). manufacturers like Pickering/Stanton made all kinds of styli even for 78rpm (or different mono profiles) and you can use all of them with one MM cartridge. When you stay with MM/MI under $700 (or cheaper) you will get much more for the money than one single MC cartridge that you don’t know how to retip and where to retip , and what will be a result of retip). Do you have an MC or SUT even to think about MC ?

For turntable, finally, look at the Technics NEW Direct Drive, check the SL1200GR or G instead of those belt-drive units.

P.S. Nagaoka MP-200 is entry level low compliance MM cartridge with elliptical profile, but at the same cost you can buy amazing vintage MM with better cantilever and better stylus profile. 

Dear @tooblue  : Do it you a favor and please let us know why any of those advises not belongs to mediocrity/average land.

Maybe for you no one of them because you are living in the audio mediocrity level ( I don't know. ) but if you don't then your post has no sense.

R.

Thank you rauliruegas I have decided to sell off everything and not pursue the hobby. Cant get good sound unless I spend about a hundred grand. 

@jeffvegas : Do you know what mediocrity/average means? look at a dictionary.

Do you know the difference between mediocrity and where excellence begin? how demanding are you?

If you already know the answers then you have a way easy decision.

I only try to help, nothing more.

R.

Whoa! Hey, calm down, everybody. I get good sound, can I say great sound, for ten bucks. So cut me some slack, Jack! You can get a lot worse for a hundred grand without trying too hard.

Raul
I understand where you are coming from and the meaning of your post but it comes off as a little harsh .

Every one starts somewhere and not everyone can or is prepared to dive in deep headfirst first time around.

If you shop carefully and wisely for well under $4k you can have good record replay.
Would it fit your view of excellence?
Probably not.
Might it seem excellent to the OP?
Quite possibly not truly having heard $20k worth of analog replay gear.

Sometimes we need to crawl first, then walk before we run yes?

What does it sound like when someone talks and no one is listening? Answer, rauliruegas. Enjoy the music

Dealer demo Rega RP10 with a Benz Micro and a used BAT PHONO PREAMP. 

@jeffvegas I returned to vinyl in the ’90’s. I pulled out a Dual TT which I still had from the 80’s. That was my start again. later a MMF-7, then a VPI ScoutMaster, the ScoutMaster with the better arm & silver cabling before I finally got my Teres. I liked the ScoutMaster & could easily live with the upper end VPI’s. They are good TT. So, yes, the SM is a very good place to start. And don’t forget the importance of the phono preamp. I have the JLTi which has enough stability to run the LOMC cart without loading, which is preferable. BTW, every step up the chain made an improvement
That said, there is a ritual with vinyl. You need to clean them and keep them cleaned. You handle them w/o touching the grooves...EVER!!. They return to the sleeve immediately. The stylus is to be kept clean. Keep track of the hours of play is a good idea also so you can replace the stylus when needed. The cover art was considered very important back in the day. Plus you can read liner notes. Gotta have outter sleeves & inner sleeves if you buy used. I probably missed something. Bottom line, you must love the rituals of vinyl or you won’t like vinyl for long. It’s work and expense. Digital is easy. Vinyl is work and dare I say, a love affair. If you develop the love affair, there is no limit to how good the equipment can be.

I am taking the plunge!!! Love it!! If it takes 10 grand to sound good I will do it!!!

No

RP8 + Apheta2 + PS Audio NuWave preamp.  I love vinyl, but the ritual...not so much.  Lately, I’ve been using the NuWave to archive LPs at DSD double, or I’d go back to the Rega Aria.  A clean record played on good gear is still quality listening, and a well matched setup needn’t go more than $4K if you’re willing to shop around. FWIW.  Best of luck with your system!

Appreciate all the great advice goners!!!! You guys know  your stuff!!!

a vintage thorens td125 mk 2 with an SME S2 **UN IMPROVED** arm fitted with a nagaoka mp 300 would be perfect. Get a mm cartridge since it has changable stylus and it does not need a 2 k phono stage. A used avid pellari or a schiit mani is perfect. 
To me the most important thing is that altho they are not as good as line contact styli, ellipticals are MUCH easier to align and not as fiddly to set up. So if u want to spend more time listening to music than setting up the table stick with elliptical styli. 

Should I buy a VPI SCOUTMASTER? No. Buy the Super Scoutmaster Reference. Thereby skipping past a couple of upgrade bugs in the future. 

I’ve got ~2000 records and also have a nice Roon server with TIDAL and Qobuz and a bunch of DACs...so I hope my advice is helpful here. I went to Axpona and listened to $300,000 systems two years ago that sounded like crap and heard some $5,000 systems that sounded very, very nice. The amount you spend does NOT correlate to sound quality; picking the right components DOES MATTER, so ignore the guy above that says you need to drop a minimum of $5,000 on a cartridge.

Vinyl first, since you asked. The three most important things are:

Clean, un-scratched records (so you don’t have clicks and pops)
A good cartridge
A phone stage that matches the cartridge

So...first get a record cleaning machine if you are seriously pursuing vinyl listening. I have a Nitty Gritty, but there are many great ones (VPI, Record Doctor, Pro-Ject Audio Desk, etc.). You can get a Record Doctor VI from Audio Advisor for $300 bucks.

Cartridge next. I personally prefer moving coil (MC) after listening to many. I’ve tried Grado MM and Ortofon (MC Quintet Blue), Benz Micro and Goldring (Eroica LX). Denon also makes a killer cartridge (DL-103R) that is legendary which is a nice value if it matches your tonearm.

I would suggest the Ortofon MC Quintet lineup as I have a "Blue" that sounds absolutely fantastic for the money...but you need to match the mass of the cartridge to the tonearm you choose. That is where a dealer can help you choose unless you want to do a lot of research.

You may be able to use your existing phono stage if the cartridge you choose works with your stage. If not, you can go solid state or tube phono stage. A great bang for the buck is the Pro-Ject lineup. I run a tube Pro-Ject Tube Box S at around $600, but you can nuts there as well and get into the thousands. Parasound is a great brand for a high-end dedicated phono pre.

On to the table. It spins the record and you don’t want it to pick up vibration from your environment or from the motor. It’s a simple thing...but there are audible differences. I’m not knocking direct drive like a Technics, but I personally have listened to a lot of setups and I prefer something with an outboard motor...which gets the motor noise AWAY from the cartridge. VPI makes fine turntables...don’t listen to these folks that obviously cannot hear and are on the internet bandwagon of hating VPI for some strange reason. I’ve heard plenty of amazing sounding VPI setups.

I run a Music Hall MMF9.1 with an upgraded tonearm (Pro-Ject 9C evolution). I listened to a lot of tables...and I love the Sorbothane isolaters and multiple plinths that the Music Hall offers which kill any vibration from your dwelling quite nicely. I also like the separate motor and belt drive. Bang for the buck is huge as well. Music Hall tables are made by Pro-Ject...another great table is the Pro-Ject RPM 9 carbon. It’s a killer value. I own both; I prefer the Music Hall as it is better isolated, but the RPM 9 is no slouch. Also check our EAT which is made by Pro-Ject.

The above will get you spinning your vinyl...and then as your knowledge grows, you can decide on upgrades that cost a LOT more but offer only small improvements. You can also see if you "stick with" vinyl.

If you want to stream, I like the cheap Pro-Ject Pre-Box S2 digital to get you started along with a TIDAL and QOBUZ subscription. I use a Roon server and think the lifetime license is worth every penny; you can run it on a NAS or a PC or a dedicated high dollar device. A modern PC with an SSD is sufficient.

For step-up DAC’s, buy a Schiit Gungnir with Multibit or a Schiit Yggdrasil...or if you want MQA, buy a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, a Schiit EITR to feed it from a PC and an SBooster BOTW power conditioner to clean up the power feed if you want reference level modern DAC conversion. Also check out Denafrips.

Opinions are like you-know-what. I tried to offer actual shopping lists in the above without breaking the bank and getting you going...and then you can upgrade items one-by-one as your knowledge and experimentation allows.

I would not hesitate to buy that VPI you are looking at...get it a new cartridge...plug it into your existing phono stage (if it is a match)...buy a record cleaning machine and ENJOY! Why not get a streaming setup going at the same time? It’s all about the music!

You have to use your ears and not just go by what you read on the internet. I built this setup with an analog A:B XLR switchbox and identical amps just so I can A:B stuff and find out what stuff REALLY sounds like:

https://images42.fotki.com/v905/photos/6/743956/16188341/IMG_4040-vi.jpg

https://images40.fotki.com/v381/photos/6/743956/16188341/IMG_3566-vi.jpg

Records are awesome:

https://images46.fotki.com/v678/photos/6/743956/16188341/IMG_1565-vi.jpg

Dear @uberwalts : You are almost rigth and agree with you.

Yes, more important than money ( that always is welcomed. ) is our knowledge and skills levels and this knowledge/skills are not achieved through audio forums but by first hand experiences over several years with a self training through tests and errors.

The  true sound quality differences between any $  audio system is the knowledge/skills levels of the system owners.

As I said I'm against mediocrity/average sound and that's why my advise is that the OP try to start ( first step ) at an excellence land with a 4K DAC  that with help him to know if his systems can honor that DAC quality level performaNCE OR HE NEEDS TO CHANGE ANOTHER OR OTHERS SYSTEM LINKS IN HIS SYSTEM CHAIN.
At the end I don't care what the OP can decide I'm just posting an opinion and that's all.

@dimora , I'm not against VPI other than its unipivot tonearms that can't honor  the quality sound of any cartridge but that does not means is the best at its level price because something almost unexpensive like this DD TT outperforms any VPI rig but the VPI DD model:

https://www.technics.com/us/products/grand-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200g.html

and this Technics TT comes with very good tonearm too with that advantage of its removable headshell to mate easily any cartridge to it.

In the other side, there are differences between cartridges in different range price and in the rigth audio rystem a 5K cartridge always will outperforma a 2K-3K ones.
Btw, in the rigth system do you already listen ( example ) the Lyra Etna cartridge?

Yes, I agree with you that exist several 40K-50K audio systems that outperforms 300K + systems and outperforms it because a very low knowledge/skills levels of the owner.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I am pretty much done with VPI after hearing all the feedback on here and the design aspects of the arm. I am going REGA.  A stereo store local to me has a demo  Rega RP10 for 3 grand, I will put a 2 thousand dollar cartridge on it but a used phono stage for 2 grand and I will be doing just fine. As far as the DAC goes, I am looking at a Berkeley Dac or an AURELIC VEGA G2. State of the art is out of my budget but achieving a musical good sounding 2 channell system is in reach. 

I’m sorry that you were turned off the VPI. You can take solace in knowing that the Rega is a S’Phile Class A. Then too, 3 VPI tables are in the Class A., all w/ unipivot arms. Both tables/arm have their adherents and their detractors. Another item you will need (or really want) is a Pete Riggle VTAF which when used with the Rega arm will allow easier  VTA adjustment. The stock Rega requires shims to adjust VTA which is a PITA. This is for SME but I'm pretty sure he makes them for Regas also. Good luck and enjoy.

https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Tone-Arms/Pete-Riggle-Engineering-and-Audio/VTAF/For-All-SME-Tonearm-Models/10675

As far as the DAC goes, I am looking at a Berkeley Dac or an AURELIC VEGA G2. State of the art is out of my budget but achieving a musical good sounding 2 channell system is in reach

State-of-the-art in digital can be had for a mere $700:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/

I own a VPI 19-4 and a VPI TNT 6, both tricked out.  The 19-4 has an Ultracraft unipivot and the TNT has a tricked out SME IV and Benz Ruby 3.  The unipivot was not my favorite for LPs (bought the SME 7 years later) but it does sound great with a Grado 78e cartridge.  Also, the 19-4 has a sprung chassis and rubber feet.  Very quiet table.  The TNT 6 on the other hand, I was thinking of dumping it when I first bought it in 2005.  A month later, the dealer sold me the Townsend Seismic Sink. The TNT 6 became an award winner table for the price with the Sink.  I would have to spend at least $10K+ to get a better table now.  Plus the VPIs share an SDS speed controller as well.  Great 78 and LP sound.  I've heard half a dozen other TTs that I would like but they are much more expensive (and usually have superior isolation-what's with VPI back in the 2000s)?   

I would recommend a VPI 19-4 first for the price, then a Scoutmaster or Aries on the used market. I do not like the Project tables at the same price as used VPIs and read that Rega tables under $2,000 have speed problems (too fast). One problem mentioned is clicks and pops. A non-hyperesolution or tipped up sounding analog frontend/pre-amp will have surface noise diminish with better quality equipment. The SugarCube is one way to ameliorate the problem (I’d like to buy one for my 78s though the same thing-higher quality TT resulted in reduced surface noise). The remaining problem for my 25,000 LP and 7,000 78 record are record wear. Buying used records is a crapshoot more often when the records are worn. Worn record sound is a problem and can be aggravating. Different stylus tips can help to reduce the problem by seeking less worn groove areas. Luckily, more of my LPs have seen nominal play, often just a few times prior to my purchasing them. Once purchased, I may play them 100+ times with no deleterious effect (keep the stylus clean and correctly installed and keep the record clean).  Once played, the vinyl, snaps back to it's original groove form within 24 hours-it is a durable medium.

 Lol!!! Now you got me back on this used SCOUTMASTER  I can get for 1500 bucks. The REGA RP8 on music direct is 2 grand. Can get a RP10 for 3 grand used.  Cartridge and phono stage will come later. I am focusing on a solid table to build a analog foundation on. Chime in goners which one should I get and why? 

A solid turntable is a DIRECT DRIVE turntable, not a belt drive at your price range. Several people advised you a Direct Drive earlier, but you are still talking about low quality belt drives. If you want to spend your money on quality then look for Direct Drive (new or vintage), you can’t get anything better than DD with your budget even if you think you can.

If you have to ask that question no doubt you are better off focusing on nailing your digital. Focus on streaming.  It’s the 21st century now dude. 

REGA RP10 LOW QUALITY BELT DRIVE? CHAKSTER YOU DONT KNOW AUDIO GEAR TOO WELL AND SHOULDNT BE ON AUDIOGON. 

STREAMING IS FOR PUNKS. LIKE GENERATION Y PLAYING THEIR PS3 AND XBOX's buying a boombox from best buy and saying they are an audiophile. 

Dear @jeffvegas : """  I am focusing on a solid table to build a analog foundation on. """

I agree with @fleschler  VPI as TT is better than the Project or Rega as BD TTs and agree with him that unipivots are not for LPs.

The Technics I liked to you is really inexpensive but it can challenge any TT over 10K. Technics was in the audio several years before VPI or other BD manufacturers and Technics is member of the gigant Matushita japanese enterprice with all its resources for research and manufacturer qualuity second to none.

Technics is not only a first rate DD TT but comes with very good gimbal ( low friction bearings. ) bearing and uses magnesium as build material that is self dampened and this tonearm is a true cartridge foundation. We have to remember that cartridge/tonearm combination is one audio item due to extremely dependent/relationship in between cartridge and tonearm.
The Technics removable headshel tonearm design permits to mate every single cartridge with the tonearms because you can have several different weigth, different build material and different building shape headshells to mate any cartridge characteristics. Along all those you can change the headshell wires  for better ones ( this is really a critical point. ) and latter on you can rewire the tonearm with a silver wire that's really good.

No one can't go wrong with Technics.

Now, I don't know why you are sticked with BD TT maybe because you could think that a external motor can give you lower noise/distortion levels but things are not in that way not with Technics DD TT or other DD units.
Example the Technics  vintage SP10MK3 came with a SN figure of -92db and the vintage Pioneer Exclusive P3a with an outstanding -95db !! no single vintage or today BD can compare it, all BD are far away of those real DD specs.  As many of us I think that you need to learn by your self with less imagination by your self. You need to " work " with facts.

@helomech  that DAC with the latest AKM device for only 700.00 is a state of the art bargain today. Thank's for the link.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

CHAKSTER YOU DONT KNOW AUDIO GEAR TOO WELL AND SHOULDNT BE ON AUDIOGON.

Why do you use capslock ?

Even Raul advised you a brand new Technics SL1200G, our Uberwaltz did the same and advised you Direct Drive turntables, you just wasting your time with all those Belt Drives, i’m afraid you just don’t understand what is a turntable/tonearm and your thread is pointless. You just asking same question ignoring what people telling you, those who tried to help (like myself).

If you think i don’t know audio gear very well then look at my system or on my second system., or more. Not to mention many other turntables, all tonearms and cartridges i have on hands.

Look for serious Japanese Direct Drive, not your Rega and other funny looking overpriced bad quality belt drive crap that can’t even rotate on constant speed.

Use the belt on your pants, it is much better there, not on a turntable.

Direct drives are junk. You never connect a motor to the deck and platter. Vibration. Direct drive is for low end record players. Virtually every 100k dollar table is BELT.  Technics is not EVEN close to same league as VPI or REGA. Unless YOU ARE A DISC JOCKEY. 

@jeffvegas
The problem with asking questions here anymore is that you will get 50 different answers from people who’s knowledge is questionable but their bias is not. Direct drive, belt drive, idler drive, gumball arm, uni pivot and now DJ tables which came into vogue when the cheap idler drive TT became all the rage, 7-8s ago.  AAMOF, CHEAP seems to be the criterion for all things audiophool today. I’ve tried to stay away from endorsing my bias (VPI) But IMO, the Scoutmaster is a good start and will serve you well as a base of knowledge. Especially at $1500. The uni pivot arm is different and wobbles because its on a uni-pivot point. But its no problem if you use the cue lever which you should do with any arm. Use the SM and then if you want to upgrade, sell it for little (if any) loss and move on. By that time you will have zeroed in on whatever path you want to go. The key is research and knowing the players and learning what you like

Forget the streaming for the time. You will need to focus on one thing at a time. get your vinyl established & the go for the streaming.Never upgrade 2 components at a time. Too many variables to make a proper assessment. So now you have 51 opinions. Enjoy whatever route you take. Just take one. If you don’t like it, try again.That too is education.

Artemus , NOW that sounds like good advice. 

Dear @jeffvegas : I don't know you but I don't like mediocrity/average audio items, digital or analog.

All the advises here for analog and what you are asking for are in the mediocrity land, belongs to this territory.

In the digital domain the advises are in the mediocrity level too as that Benchmark.

If you like the mediocrity then go for what ever you think you need.

If you don't like and don't want stay in that mediocrity then you need to make a wise decision. In the analog alternative you need a phono cartridge in the 3K-5k  price range and only for the cartridge. You need that cartridge along a TT, a tonearm ( not unipivot, no matters what. ) and a first rate phono stage and you can't do it for less than 10K.

In the digital alternative you can go out of the mediocrity starting at your budget of 4K and up for the DAC.

Everything can " sounds " but not everything can sounds out of the mediocrity. Is up to you not the other gentlemans ( including me. ) in this thread.

Typical hogwash from an audiophile elitist -- ignorance on par with a flat-earther.

@jeffvegas I also suggest the new Technics SL1200G as a sound audiophile TT.  It is reasonably priced, durable and is superior to the prior DJ iterations.  There are several very high end DD TTs now including VPI.  Technics made some great DD TTs that sell for more than you are looking to purchase.   

Dear @jeffvegas: Please take a look to this gentleman system and due that he is using streaming digital alternative could be according you a Punk. Observe too that he does not use a BD TT and certainly no unipivot tonearm and his room/system is over 300K and a reference for any audiophile for its quality performance levels:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

Problem you have is that you have very low knowledge levels not only in analog but in the digital alternative too and you showed that low knowledge levels through all your posts.

That’s the problem you have and it’s a problem for almost any one of us trying to help you because through your posts you said " things " as if you be a true expert in what you say when you are not.

From where did you took all those " crazy " things you posted? when you have no first hand experiences. LOL!

I think that you are not a PUNK but: did you already listened to a native DSD512 streaming? I know for sure you did not but you are an " expert ". How is that?

" Direct drive are junks.. "" who told you? the Technics I liked you is only the Technics entry level but seems to me that you tal just for talk understanding nothing in the main subjects.

A TT always is important but more important is the tonearm that will be mated with the cartridges and you just don’t care about. Go figure!

@helomech , elitist? wrong way wrong. That I put the nail where its hurt does not means I’m elitist because I’m not.
Look in a " poblation "/mix or conglomeration of people the 70-80% of them stay in the average/mediocrity range, 10% in the worst/very poor range and 10% in the excellence range. Where are you? you don’t need to have the mikelavigne room/system to put you feets in the top 10% range. First you need knoledge/skill high levels and then a little money to use that knowledge levels you have.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Lol!!! Now you got me back on this used SCOUTMASTER I can get for 1500 bucks. The REGA RP8 on music direct is 2 grand. Can get a RP10 for 3 grand used. Cartridge and phono stage will come later. I am focusing on a solid table to build a analog foundation on. Chime in goners which one should I get and why?

 My choice of those three would be the RP10. 

That said, this thread needs a little balance. Some here are claiming nothing under $10K competes with direct-drive, another is claiming direct-drive is just DJ junk. Both of these assertions are unequivocally false. Anyone with ample experience with reference examples of both should know that either can sound excellent, with any measurement imperfections far below the threshold of the media  (the noise floor that's literally cut/pressed into the grooves). And no, it doesn't take a $15K investment to get reference quality sound from either design type. I have a $3K belt-drive table (sans arm) that maintains speed within .03% of perfect according to a KAB Speedstrobe. Most listeners can't detect a pitch change under 1%.  

If direct drive were so inferior, VPI wouldn't be charging $30K for their DD model. If belt-drive is so inferior, Mikey Fremer would just use a 1200G, sell his Caliburn and pocket five figures. Further, if direct-drive was so inherently superior, the DD behemoth, Micro-Seiki, wouldn't have bothered to produce flagship models like the SX-8000.  

I do. It’s not that simple if your LOMC cartridge cost $4500 and to replace it (when the stylus is worn) you will have to pay 60% of the new cart again. It not always 80%, but even 60% from $4500 is $2700 ! In the MC world even $4500 is not the highest price and i had those cartridges before (never again).

If one can't afford the replacement/retip cost, then it's stupid to purchase that cartridge in the first place. I would agree with you if your argument were that anyone on a tight budget should stick with MMs. Replacement cost is  irrelevant, as it costs approximately 66 to 80% of the whole assembly to fit nearly any CURRENTLY-produced cartridge with a new stylus. Cartridge affordability really comes down to "act your wage." 

Jeff notice how not one of the people who talk in absolutes,  ask you what you wanted from vinyl.  Notice how the ones who talk in absolutes  have not built anything themselves so have no first hand knowledge of what is going on.  The 3-5 grand cartridge statement  is the most ridiculous  thing I have ever heard.   

If  I where in your shoes and going belt drive I would look at the heaviest  platter available , in your price range.  Then you can play with different  motors and controllers  down the road.  Maybe get a old aluminum  platter vpi and buy the new motor / controller , that Phoenix made for Sota.   Unipivots can sound glorious. How many  people who tell  you that all unipivots are garbage , have  built any,  or even remotely  understand the principles. 

If you are looking for what real acoustical  music can sound like, then your vinyl pursue should be worth  the effort.  If hip hop,  rap,  punk, or  electronic  stuff is your thing  maybe  digital  would be the way to go.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

REGA RP10 LOW QUALITY BELT DRIVE? CHAKSTER YOU DONT KNOW AUDIO GEAR TOO WELL AND SHOULDNT BE ON AUDIOGON.


STREAMING IS FOR PUNKS. LIKE GENERATION Y PLAYING THEIR PS3 AND XBOX's buying a boombox from best buy and saying they are an audiophile.


Direct drives are junk. You never connect a motor to the deck and platter. Vibration. Direct drive is for low end record players. Virtually every 100k dollar table is BELT. Technics is not EVEN close to same league as VPI or REGA. Unless YOU ARE A DISC JOCKEY.

Just woah!

Those three statements right there show me your total ignorance of the reality of music equipment and your tolerance of members on this forum and possibly life in general.

My advice now is to save your money and buy a $20 pair of IEM,s and listen to Pandora on your phone.

Ciao.

Uberwaltz just because your system sounds like pandora on a cell phone doesnt mean you have to recommend it. 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

"pandora on a cell phone"
What doe's that even mean?
This is an odd thread. The OP's responses throughout the thread are not consistent with someone who looking to seriously purchase a substantial turntable.

Some responses seem like a kid  in junior high is answering.

Oh well, it's the internet. Enjoy whatever you buy.