Direct drives are junk. You never connect a motor to the deck and platter. Vibration. Direct drive is for low end record players. Virtually every 100k dollar table is BELT. Technics is not EVEN close to same league as VPI or REGA. Unless YOU ARE A DISC JOCKEY. This is a proof how low is your knowledge about turntables, you have to learn something first. I’m afraid you’re living in parallel reality, brainwashed by audiophile press and "experts" in belt drives. Do you know anything about records and how they are made ? If you don’t know that Direct Drive is there from the start in process of vinyl production/manufacturing you’d better go back and learn from the start. Every single lacquer for disc masters cut on DIRECT DRIVE, one of the most popular worldwide is Neumann Lathe. Of course you don’t know that Technics Direct Drive Motor SP-02 is what actually rotate Neumann Platter while a cutting stylus cut the groove on lacquer disc which is a source for disc master used for every vinyl release you ever heard/owned. Reference Direct Cut LPs recorded on Direct Drive Lathe too, ever heard about it ? Those records are the finest quality, because there is no tape (or digital) between the musicians and vinyl master. Signal from the microphones goes to the mixing console and then direct to the cutter heard located over Direct Drive Lathe! If Direct Drive motor could harm a signal coming from a cutter head, or could add any noise or whatever ... then no one in the industry would have to use Direct Drive Motors. But there are NO cutting lathe with belt drive because this is inferior , cheap motor that can’t rotate on constant speed and only degrades in time, it is full or errors, very low torque motor. And if you think that all those ugly belt drives cost so much because they are superior you’re so wrong, i’m sorry for you. If you want to speak with the numbers looks for the prices for reference Direct Drive like Denon DP-100 for example. Don’t die of heart attack when you will see a price tag for this Direct Drive turntable. There are many other DD turntables that cost a lot more than you can even expect. Why did you post here ? Just to get approval from some users about your cheap low quality belt drive turntable ? Does it make sense for you ? Many people tried to help you, but you just can’t hear anything. Now you will do the same about cartridges. |
I started in the late 80’s as a high end audio salesman for 2 different stores representing the names of VANDERSTEEN, KRELL, CONRAD JOHNSON, APPOGEE, AUDIO RESEARCH, MCINTOSH, B&W, SUMO, JEFF ROWLAND, MARK LEVINSON, VPI, REGA, LINN, ATMOSPHERE, ELECTRON KINETICS, CELESTION, DUNLAVY, QUICKSILVER, PSE, NAD, THORENS, BAT, ETC. Enough said. For a salesman started in the 80’s it’s ridiculous to read what you posted about Japanese Direct Drive turntables, i think you never tried any of them in your life (or at least any serious DDs). Unlike you, the owners of the brands you’ve been selling were inspired by Japanese cartridge designers, the best carts from Krell, M.Levinson, J.Rowland are all made in Japan by Japanese cartridge designers like Takeda-San and Ikeda-San. Japan is the land of Direct Drive high-end turntables as much as the best cartridges. So maybe it’s a cultural difference... I tried a dozen of Direct Drive TTs from relatively cheap to very expensive, but the difference between me and you is that i tried them all in the past 5 years and i don’t have to remember anything that happened 40 years ago like you. Right now in my system i have Victor TT-101 (pair), Luxman PD-444 (pair), Denon DP-80, also some cheaper models from Technics and Micro Seiki that is not necessary to mention. You will hardly find anything better than those 3 models from those 3 brands even if your budged (just for the drive without tonearm and plinth) will be over $10k or even more. Unfortunately only Technics (Matsushita) still in business for audiophiles with their new Direct Drive like SP-10R which is probably surpass anything new under $20k, because the price policy for many high-end brands including those belt drives is simply insane! While the prices from Matsushita is more than real, they are affordable! In fact i don’t care what you will buy, but i want our readers (who never post here) to be aware of it. Vintage Direct Drive turntables from Technics, Denon, Luxman, Victor ... are great, they are flawless, solid, made in Japan and will serve their owners longer than many new crappy units that modern industry can offer for higher prices. Technics and JVC Victor made DD motors of the highest possible quality, for this reason those motors were inside the wolrd class Disc Lathe machines in the best disc cutting studios. Japanese giants of vinyl industry also made cutting heads for Disc Lathe machines. It’s hard to imagine the industry without them. But i can imagine industry without belt drive turntables, those companies did nothing except for cheap turntables for consumers. |
If you have 25 records why do you need VPI SCOUTMASTER belt drive ? As i can see even second hand VPI is about $2k, right ? Look for new Technics first and compare the prices, it is direct drive. Never buy an MC cartridge if you never tried a good MM before, read this article first. Start with MM or MI cartridges, because when you will destroy some MC you won’t be able to replace the stylus yourself. Stick to under $700 price tag for a cartridge, buy Moving Magnet or Moving Iron. Check Garrott or SoundSmith if you need new production. Audio-Technica cartridges are always good! Some vintage are excellent too. |
Hanna MC cartridge owner should explain what would you do when your stylus is worn after 600-1000hrs of use if it's Shibata or if you will broke your stylus/cantilever accidentally? |
beware of ideologues. MC vs. MM, digital vs analog, direct drive vs. belt drive - all depends on the implementation, not the format per se. Regarding cartridges you will always pay more for MC, no matter what. This is very important for a newbie! It is obvious that MC has very short life span and stylus is not user replaceable. Even if your MC cartridge has reasonable retail price this is not the end, you will need an expensive MC phono stage, Headamp or SUT to use with this type of cartridges. You can simple double the budget for this reason. It can be a mess even with cables, because Low Output signal from MC cartridge is much more sensitive to the cable shielding etc. And more important: If a newbie can't handle tonearm (which is a common problem for people who never use turntables before) you can destroy your MC cartridge in the first week. Even experienced users can make a mistakes. With MM/MI cartridge you can just buy additional stylus for reasonable price to install it by yourself in 10 seconds and your broken cartridge is back to work just like new. With MC cartridge you will have to ship it back to the factory via your distributor, you will pay again nearly 60% of the retail price to get new cartridge from them (only if manufacturer offering such support program), or you will ship it to someone like SoundSmith for re-tip or refurbishing. It will cost you a lot and you will have to wait about 3-5 month (depends on retipper). This is why MC is not for a newbie. And actually it's not better than decent MM or MI. This is not a philosophy or bla bla bla. This is real problem. It's about usability and service. |
With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge. Some of his MI cartridges does not have user replaceable styli. It is factory replaceable, but still at the lowest cost compared to MC cartridges from other manufacturers. Not sure were did you get 80% from, watch factory tour and listen to him. Service for his own cartridges is the cheapest from him.
And no, MM carts do not last longer than MCs. Stylus life is mostly dictated by user habits and diamond profile.
If you refurbish MC it will be no longer the same cartridge you’ve been using before. You can buy as many styli for one MM cartridge as you can get to swap them in 10 seconds by yourself and this is the same cartridge you can use forever this way. And you don’t have to destroy original design by sending them to re-tipper who will glue different cantilever or different diamond. A Shibata diamond will last about 500 hours before it begins to cause record wear. For an elliptical, it’s about 250 hours. Other than AT and SS carts, very few MMs come with an advanced stylus profile. All my MM cartridges comes with the best possible profiles: -MicroRidge for Grace LEVEL II and F14 -Stereohedron for all Stanton/Pickering top models -Vital III for ADC TRX II (IM) -Twin Tip for Grado XTZ Signature (MI) -Micro Tracer for Garrott P77 -FineLine for Ortofon M20Fl Super. -Shibata for Victor carts -MicroLine for AT as you said ... i could continue with many more MM/MI Don’t forget JISO SAS (Super Analog Stylus) designed for MM cartridges and made even for vintage models, JICO SAS available with Boron, Ruby and Sapphire cantilevers for various MM classics. I’ve owned a $900 Soundsmith MI, its performance was a joke compared to a $750 Hana SL. Yes, the SL costs more in the long run but for those with a deserving system, the difference is worthwhile. Maybe it was a "joke" in your system with your tonearm or it's just a personal preferences which is OK. In my opinion Excel Sound is a joke, watch factory tour and think about some $23 000 cartridges they are making now. Classic vintage MC are so much better than Hana even in the same price under $800 (better cantilevers, better diamonds, much more advanced design). Some of my favorite LOMC cartridges are Miyajima Kansui, Miyabi Standard, Fidelity-Research FR-7fz, Ikeda 9c III ... and i would not recommend any of them to the newbie with 25 records in collection and with zero experience with some of the best MM or MI, because if something will happen with those MC it will be very expensive or almost impossible to return them back to original specs. Some killer MM are within $700 range and styli are about $300 |
Most of the advises here is like "buy whatever cartridge and turntable, they are all good" (even if it’s very low quality gear, weak belt drive motor, dirt cheap phonostages, unipivot tonearm or entry level cartridges). there was a similar thread before If you don't mind to be disappointed in vinyl (compared to your digital) and ended up selling your analog gear losing money on it then you can go for it. If you really want something special to beat your digital and to keep what you're buying for a long time for happy listening then you must be more specific in what you're buying. |
With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge.
@helomech just check Peter's interview and he said at 17:00 here SoundSmith cartridges will be rebuild ONLY for 20% of the cost (not 80% as you said). |
Buy without cartridge, ortofon Red is nothing special, you can buy cartridge yourself, a good one, not what you will get for free with the table |
@helomec
I stated, "with exception of Soundsmith carts." Learn how to read. Oops, my mistake. But then it's just like my argument how inconvenient the MC cartridges really are. Does that mean a Hana charge 80% of retail to rebuild or completely change their cart officially via distributors ? |
Project will do the trick instead of spending 3 grand. Project is very bad belt-drive turntable, it's really the lowest quality even compared to some other belt drives, but if you will upgrade the cartridge even this turntable will give you more. Why don't you just look for Direct Drive instead of Belt Drive ? Worried though about the future of record production with that record plant that was destroyed by fire in Cali.
They made lacquers. You have many pressing plants in USA and there are many in Europe too. But more important: we have billions of vintage vinyl available in the stores for entire life. |
One disadvantage of MM is that stylus assemblies tend to have a rather loose mating with their cartridge housings. Any slight bit of tolerance there will result in some amount of signal distortion vs the fixed assemblies of an MC. Further, MCs have the well-known advantage of a lower moving mass - similar to the advantage of Soundsmiths MI carts. Lower moving mass is a big advantage according to PL of SS, and it applies to MCs as well as MIs. @helomech Most of the well designed MM/MI have a stylus assembly that screwed to the cartridge body (ADC TRX, Sony XL-50, Technics P100 and P205 series ... ), but even without that screw pulling a stylus away from a Grado cartridge is a challenge, did you ever tried ? Some of the best MM cartridge have extremely low moving mass too, read about Audio-Technica AT-ML180 OCC or Technics P100c mk4 just to name a few with the lowest possible moving mass. MC cartridge replacement is typically about 80% cost of new. I don’t consider it very inconvenient. It’s simply a a matter of mailing the old cart to the dealer and receiving a brand-new one in return. I do. It’s not that simple if your LOMC cartridge cost $4500 and to replace it (when the stylus is worn) you will have to pay 60% of the new cart again. It not always 80%, but even 60% from $4500 is $2700 ! In the MC world even $4500 is not the highest price and i had those cartridges before (never again).
That’s where Excel stepped in and changed the game with their relatively affordable Hana series.
The Excel stepped into the game in the 70’s with wide range of cartridges, they made cartridges for others like SAEC and Argent long time ago. WHy do you think their new design is any better ? Here is my thread about earlier Excel Sound work for American brand Argent in the 80’s |
Totally forgot about the stylus!!! Ok, so if I get a Hana SL how long will it last vs say a 500 dollar moving magnet? 600 hrs and your Shibata stylus is almost worn out, and i think you have no idea what you can do with it, no one never answered my question regarding Hana (How a customer can get new stylus or new cartridge from the manufacturer of Hana, what’s the cost ?) With decent MM you can simply buy new stylus with great profile for about $300-400 and your old cartridge is new again. If your MM cartridge is something like Grace you can by different styli (different cantilevers and different diamonds). manufacturers like Pickering/Stanton made all kinds of styli even for 78rpm (or different mono profiles) and you can use all of them with one MM cartridge. When you stay with MM/MI under $700 (or cheaper) you will get much more for the money than one single MC cartridge that you don’t know how to retip and where to retip , and what will be a result of retip). Do you have an MC or SUT even to think about MC ? For turntable, finally, look at the Technics NEW Direct Drive, check the SL1200GR or G instead of those belt-drive units. P.S. Nagaoka MP-200 is entry level low compliance MM cartridge with elliptical profile, but at the same cost you can buy amazing vintage MM with better cantilever and better stylus profile. |
A solid turntable is a DIRECT DRIVE turntable, not a belt drive at your price range. Several people advised you a Direct Drive earlier, but you are still talking about low quality belt drives. If you want to spend your money on quality then look for Direct Drive (new or vintage), you can’t get anything better than DD with your budget even if you think you can.
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CHAKSTER YOU DONT KNOW AUDIO GEAR TOO WELL AND SHOULDNT BE ON AUDIOGON. Why do you use capslock ? Even Raul advised you a brand new Technics SL1200G, our Uberwaltz did the same and advised you Direct Drive turntables, you just wasting your time with all those Belt Drives, i’m afraid you just don’t understand what is a turntable/tonearm and your thread is pointless. You just asking same question ignoring what people telling you, those who tried to help (like myself). If you think i don’t know audio gear very well then look at my system or on my second system., or more. Not to mention many other turntables, all tonearms and cartridges i have on hands. Look for serious Japanese Direct Drive, not your Rega and other funny looking overpriced bad quality belt drive crap that can’t even rotate on constant speed. Use the belt on your pants, it is much better there, not on a turntable. |
