I had the exact same thing happen when I purchased a cd player recently that came damaged. I requested a refund from seller, he refused but said he would send me any money that UPS would refund in a claim. When I notified Audiogon, they recommend that we work it out on our own or that I could pay for a moderater to make a decision on the case($99). Ultimately after a couple of months, UPS did pay the claim(which went to seller or course) and I was fortunate that the seller did send me the money. I do believe that you are right about getting the seller to refund first like I tried to do, but getting him to do so may be a differant story.
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Regardless how well the speakers you purchased were packed, the seller owes you a refund immediately. This buying and selling online is not risk free.
As a seller I learned very early the importance of proper packing when I sold a very heavy amp without original carton. Thought it was packed well but I underestimated UPS's ability for destruction. I refunded the buyer as soon as the amp was out of his hands.
One more thing, I have neither bought nor sold floorstand speakers where shipping is required. It is a hassle, especially when selling but your story is the reason why. Good luck with this transaction.
The seller owes you a refund. With regard to damage in shipment as a buyer or seller, there are a couple things to keep in mind.
1.It appears that the frequency of damage increases significantly from Thanksgiving until after new year. Sell and ship at high risk during the high volume holiday season.
2. With hard to package items, like heavy amps and speakers, it may be better to buy or sell on a pick up only basis.
I don't see his response as belittling and it seems to me that you might try to have a little patience and let things take their due course. Perhaps the seller would like to see that the claim process has been initiated properly before proceeding as he hasn't refused to reimburse. I'd try to look at it from his view.
The rules are clear. It's neither of your faults, however, it is his responsibility to refund you NOW. I had this happen early on in my audiogon trades with a pair of PSB 5T floor standing speakers. The buyer received them with a blown woofer. Though a pain, for the seller, you need your money back.
I agree with the other who say you're entitled to a refund immediately on fulfilling your responsibility of giving the speakers back to UPS. The issue is now between the seller and UPS, and you should have your money to pursue another purchase. Your willingness to make alternate "reasonable solution" is admirable but not required.
Regardless of your aggravation with the seller to this point, you're best served by keeping your cool though the negotiations until you have $ in hand. email can be a blunt instrument, and perhaps he's simply waiting until he receives acknowledgment from UPS they have received the speakers (?). It's also likely he doesn't know about the Audiogon policy (it's amazing how many 'Goners don't yet have extensive feedback) and feels he's entitled to wait resolution. If this is the case it may require a little enlightenment.
Bdgrerory is on the mark.
Forget the moderator and disput system, it does not work, as I have tried it.
Remember most Americans live pay check to pay check and for him to give your money back after he has (if) spent it would cause a major financial set back. Most don't have the morals to know right from wrong or how to to business in a upright manner.
Some people when you push the letter of the law on them,('Gon policy ) causes them to go slower. I for one would take his head off with this policy but my wife knows how to rescue me and write in such a manner that makes people want to listen to my requests.
132's comment is some of the strange outlooks you will get on this question.
Sounds like the middle, as a pending resolution makes sense. Not withstanding A's policy, it has problems in that until UPS makes a damage assessment, the matter is still open. It will not be the first time that seller's have sent damaged goods, hoping to luck out on a damage claim.I have had many 'damaged' shipments, wherein I am the buyer, reclined by UPS. UPS generally will never pay claims unless the stuff is double boxed and the original manufacturers packing materials are used. Over the last few months they are enforcing this. In that case the goods get returned to the seller. The only thing that assures the buyer gets his money back, is to pay via a credit instrument. I always go with PayPal and have received 100% of my payment back, sometimes taken three months. Proof of return of the goods is always on the UPS web site and PayPay accepts that proof. One of the things I like about the UPS carrier, is that I as buyer can initiate the claim. Goods are picked up the next day. I do not need to wait for the seller to get involved, but I advise him at once. Lastly, using money orders creates an added level of risk that should be only accepted if you can discount the price accordingly.
If you look closely, you will see that the stated policies are intended to protect the buyer. One could view this as odd, in the sense that AG's revenue stream comes from the seller.
IMO, it pays for both parties in a transaction and to be up front and honest...and explore the options from both points of view with the intention of protecting both parties, before the transaction.
Yes, many sellers have had horror stories, but the largest majority of those are dealing with UPS. The boys and girls in brown can be amazingly destructive.
IMO, if a buyer wants 'retail protection', then it seems to me that it is reasonable for the buyer to expect to pay the shipping costs for a service that actually has a reasonable reputation for both safe delivery and handling claims. The interests of the seller have just as much merit as the interests of the buyer.
For a seller to 'honor the AG policy'...great...offer this with Fed Ex Air, Bax, USPS Priority Mail..and others. If the buyer insists on the cheapest (read UPS or Fed Ex Ground), both parties need to be adult and make a decision prior to shipping.
I know from experience...UPS claims are a nightmare. And yes, I REFUNDED the buyer LONG before seeing anything from UPS. UPS uniforms are not the only thing that is brown.
Glory, what's strange about my recommendation? Nobody wants to get screwed. The seller doesn't want to be left holding a pair of smashed speakers and the buyer doesn't want to be out $X. So, to hold everyone over until the claim is paid, split the difference so both parties have the EXACT same skin in the game. It's neither of their faults why should jsut one party be held liable????
Shipping damage/losses: The seller in the instance of damage occurring during transit can expect full cooperation from the recipient in filing a damage claim with the shipper. The recipient however will not be required to wait for a successful claim to recover his purchase price.
Please read the out line for shipping damage. End of Dec. to Jan 12 and no refund no morals and does not know right from wrong. Wrong is right and right is wrong. Very sad you just do not get it.
What makes this hard on this member is that he is a business man that knows how to to business in a upright manner. Very frustrating when you deal with people who have no clue on upright transactions. Did I use the word upright, sorry for sayindg a cuse word.
Recepient is not required to wait.......... Lets change it and make it read recepient should get half........
It's called lawlessness.
PAY UP SELLER if you are reading this.
Agree UPS is terrible for audio. Use BAX or Fedex ground. Also, keep your cool as above, but notifly audiogon and have the sellers account on hold pending resolution as proof you aren't going away.
There are lots of bad comments on BAX here. Also for speakers there seems to be a insurance limit of $500 for BAX:
Audio Circle: BAX Global only insures speakers for $500!!
Has anyone been in such a situation and how did you deal with it. Any other thoughts on this policy, is it widely ignored as being irrelevant and I am in the dark? Thank you sincerely for your time.
I've been in similar situations, but not exactly the same. When making a large purchase such as this, I will use a credit card through Paypal. Then if a seller plays games, I can get my money back. By paying with a MO, you are at the mercy of the seller. Your only recourse would be small claims court.
Most folks know the policies, just as most folks know public laws, not all follow the laws or policies though. Some will interpret them differently.
Not that this is right, but it happens, it's human nature.
I believe that you should get an immediate refund, but my beliefs and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.