Paul,
As I noted in my post, I've never gone the really low power output route, so I wasn't commenting on any of the 45 tube designs. OTOH, you mentioned the 211 tube as well. I use this as the default tube in my Cary 805s specifically because the slightly "darker" top end (vs. the 845 output tube alternative) emphasizes the warmer tonal balance of the amp. When the 845 is in service in the Cary, it, too, is warmer/lusher than most amps I've used, but closer to neutral.
I'm sure that tonal balance of most SET amps varies with the impedence curve of the speaker being used, so my observations are qualified by that fact. In actual use, my SET amps have produced pretty consistent results, regardless of the speaker; deep bass is diminished, mid-bass performance is strong, midrange lovely, highs are airy but a bit rolled off. (To be honest, I no longer hear the roll off at the high end - probably one more 50th birthday gift). Dynamics are surprising, almost always exceeding expectations for the power output. However, IME (which -to be clear-excludes the 45 and similar very low output designs), SETs definitely tend to be warm and lush. |
Aarif,
I've owned both types of amplifier and, before you can describe either, you have to bear in mind that the sound of these amps are entirely speaker match dependent. So, assuming that we've got the right speaker match, I'll paraphrase Ralph;
SETs amps tend toward candlelight (warm & romantic)
OTLs amps tend toward sunlight (neutral & revealing)
IME
Marty |
I'd strongly disagree with Paul's comments re: SET amps not sounding "lush" vs OTLs.
While my earlier comments re: the "romantic" sound of SET amps were primarily intended to describe 300B SETs (and more specifically the Cary monos I own), I find some elements of this "lush" quality in all of the SET amps I've heard. I would specifically include the Cary 805s I also own, and more specifically include the 805s when used with the 211 output tube.
I have never gone the "flea power" route, so I can't comment on those, but I've heard 300B based amps from several manufacturers and ALL of them sounded warm tonally, so it ain't just Cary. As to OTLs sounding "whitish", I've heard that, too. My early production S-30s could sound this way when paired with the wrong speaker.
Marty |
Incidentally, nothing wrong in my book with "lush" sounding amps. That's precisely the reason I own two pairs of SETs.
Marty |
I can't argue with any of the above as I've never heard any amps built around those output tubes. I've always been concerned about speaker matches - as per Atmasphere's observation. Personally, I love most of the 300B designs I've heard and some of the best sound (though maybe not best deep bass) I've achieved came from 300Bs with slightly lean speakers
The original Merlin VSM SE with the Carys was a great match. I remember having a turntable set-up guy -from a very, very high end dealer that carried only SS electronics at the time - install a new arm. When he was done and we listened to the system, his eyebrows literally
arched up. He was stunned.
My point is that a good 300B set up with appropriate speakers can be very satisfying. Strictly neutral sounding amps have never IMHO been any guarantee of good sound. The right amp with the right speaker has always been the trick for me. After reading these comments, I'm sure I'll check out some of the lower power SETs you guys are so enthused over.
Marty |
Atma,
I used to use the Cary 300B monos with the original VSM SE in a loft (2 parallel walls & 2 open sides terminated only by railings) that was app. 20' across and app. 12' from open railing (speakers) to open railing (listener). SPL capability was completely adequate for my needs and dynamics were just damn stunning.
I also used these speakers with an early production S-30. The combo worked well, but I preferred the 300B by a fair margin. The speakers sounded warmer with the Cary monos and -For My Taste- that delta easily trumped whatever benefits accrued to the S-30. I'm not suggesting that everyone would share my preference.
BTW, I auditioned the speakers with the S-30 and bought both speakers & amp, so you know that I really liked the combo a lot. It's just that, on direct comparison in my home, I preferred the Cary amps for these speakers. I also understand that later runs of the S-30 were pretty different sounding, so my opinion must also be qualified by that fact.
Marty
PS The speakers have since been modified to current spec by Merlin and now seem happier with more power. My space has also changed, so an "apples to apples" comparison isn't possible, but the modified VSMs sound warmer than pre-mod. Therefore, they don't benefit as much from the Cary's tonal signature and I've generally paired 'em with PP amps from Prima Luna using either KT66s or EL34s. In fact, I sometimes pair them with SS amps. At some point, I'll probably revisit your OTLs again since I find playing with these combos endlessly fascinating. |
A question for the 45, 50 2A3 crowd:
What's a good speaker choice to evaluate the bottom end capability of a low powered SET like the 45/50/2A3.
Given that
A) every 300B SET amp I've heard (granted, I haven't heard all of them) lacks power & control < app 50hz when paired with a speaker with sufficient bottom end to reveal that shortcoming,
and
B) the way I reached the above conclusion is by pairing said speaker with a solid state amp and comparing the delta in bass response
It raises the question as to which low power SET friendly speakers go low enough in frequency to allow such a comparison.
In particular, if there's anything in reasonably wide distribution that not crazy expensive and fits this description, it would be great to know of. Similarly, if there's a particular low power SET amp that's specifically recommended for that speaker, such info would also be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Marty |
Paul & Larry,
Thanks for the input.
Marty
PS Paul, I have a different view of crossing subwoofers, but I'm really interested in trying a 45 SET full range, anyway. I'll explore the Audionote further. |
Atma,
I know what you mean. I also wonder if the steep impedence spike of the VSMs (@ app 1Khz) is audible via SET and contributes to the sense of dynamics from the SET/VSM combo. Nevertheless, the cumulative effect of pairing this speaker with these amps was very, very satisfying in many (not every) way(s).
While I wouldn't particularly agree with your description of the dynamic behavior of a "good" system, I will acknowledge your point. There were times when the dynamics felt a bit more "juiced" than strictly natural, but with most of my recordings, I'd call this quality more realistic sounding. There were recordings, however, which would substantiate your view.
When I described OTLs as more "revealing" earlier in this post, that's partly what I was getting at. Shortcomings in speakers and source material was usually more evident via OTL. I know some folks find this the holy grail of this hobby, but I don't.
Marty |
Atma,
Couldn't have said it any better. I guess I found those early iterations of both the S-30 and the VSM SE slightly less "forgiving" than I'd prefer. Not "ruthless", or even "unkind", but maybe a touch "strict"?
Marty
PS I think my S-30 was one of the very first you guys manufactured. I was wondering which current Atmasphere model you typically pair with current VSMs? After this thread, I'm (uh-oh) starting to get that urge to expand the amp collection (again!). Let's see, we got 45s, 50s, 2a3s, OTLs,.... |
Atma, thanks for the recommendation.
Pubul, thanks for your insight on the VSM/M60.
Johnk, please keep your naive, baseless (or is that "bass-less") ramblings to yourself - they take up valuable space that could be better used to accomodate the absolute truth.
Marty |
Robert,
I fear you may have misread my sarcastic comment which was nominally directed to Johnk.
Perhaps with a little more experience you will understand....my post.
Marty |
John,
Glad to provide a laugh.
Your last comment is interesting in that I had posted earlier looking for info on loudspeakers that provide:
A) Appropriate sensitivity and load for a 45 SET amp
and
B) Sufficiently flat and extended bass response to even judge the bass capabilities of these amps (i.e.- no biamping).
Zu's full range passive (Essence?) looks like it might qualify. Any thoughts on this or other candidates would be appreciated. Again, budget and availability are considerations here. |
Paul,
I understand that SPLs will be limited when using a 45 SET amp full range. I am willing to restrict my use of such a system accordingly. I am, however, intrigued by the idea of an SET that can deliver the mid-range I have come to expect of such designs (based primarily on my 300B experience) with superior bass response. To be clear - I don't expect LOUD and I don't expect 20 hz.
I can (and have) used powered subs with my 300B amps. This does not address the point that the 45 lovers here have made regarding the superior bass performance of these amps. If I use powered subs, I don't particularly care about the bass performance of the main amp - 45, 300B, or SS.
If I understand the rest of your post, the Audio Note HE version might be a good choice. Any other ideas? Anyone try the Zu for this purpose?
Marty |
