SET the best?

antigrunge2674 posts 11-27-2021 6:06am @mozartfan , in the video running both a coax tweeter and a second tweeter in paralell off-axis will reult in a blurred soundstage, partial cancellation of frequencies through overlap as well as issues of phase coherence. I’d suggest to use a supertweeter with the Coax driver instead. On bass, similar issues apply although localisation is less critical. The SET looks intereting and you rightly point out the importance of transformers.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In theory, dual tweeters (FR’s tweeter + Philips) might work out as conflicting higher end fq’s mashing together,,,but in real time all sounds very natural, nothing Consider Tekton’s multi tweet design, Folks love em. Yes my tech hammers on trans quality. Colbalt trans, EVEN IF still in production are wayyy out my budget. Most higher end chines SETs are using Z11, which offers a pretty good band for the buck. With me its all about speakers, less trans quality/amp design. I’m looking at a 845 now and the one reason I’m considering the model over all overs has 300B as driver + two 12AX7’s.

 

But then again the 12AX’s will be bypassed anyway, going with the PRE OUT which is the main reason going with this amplifier.

 

If you think dual tweets might cause high fq’s distortion, next week I will be testing dual FR, W8 + W6. Which some DIYers suggested it can’t be done, **we tried it**

 

 look at all the big names in xovers speakers, multiple drivers in all fq’s. Seas Thors has dual W18’s. Wonderful speaker, no muddy bass/mids whatsoever, Just pure music. My FR has surpassed Seas by a significant margin. FR speakers experience is something like a SET experience. Both components  are magical.

SETs do things a  PP amplifierr can not

FR do things a  xover speaker can not. 

I'am agreed it is not good idea to use full range speakers in parallel with tweeter.

Tweeters shouldn't play anything below 10KHz.

That is the reason why most of famous producers like JBL, Harbeth, Tannoy use super tweeters with 3rd order high frequency filters.

When 2 driver play together in upper midrange up to 10KHz it leads to distortion, harsh sound, ruins soundstage, lack of smoothness and mask details.

 

Regards,

Alex

While researching dif 845 models,,I came across this Stereophile review from June 2021 on the LM 845

 

Seems I’m not the only one that gets **high** listening to a SET,, I was like , **wow, this music is like trippin on LSD..** ,,**Better I not post this comment on Audiogon, as the folks might think I’m crazy....**😜

Then I came across the Stereophile comment

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

buoyancy and a high-contrast vividness that some listeners refer to as psychedelic.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The comment can be read in its context page 1 near the bottom

 

Posted wayyyy back in 2009...48,800 views, 187 comments.

 folks just dont GET IT

Very few really understand what high fidelity really truly is

😫😉🙄

SET will always and forever be for a  select,,, aka The Chosen Few...

Reference bible quote. 

And yes we are special

 

@mozartfan  Since you are researching...take a look at New Audio Frontiers (mainly parallel options) and Audion UK (single ended and parallel options).

@ david_ten

 

Oh indeed, wow factor off the charts.

Here is a  review of the NAF 845

Note what the reviewer says.

 

I guess most of us appreciate transparent amps. But it comes at a price - you will hear which part of the chain that’s not up to the standards. Meaning new speakers, cables or source components. On the other hand when all things are well-matched music just flows and nothing can stop it. 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Which is my above comment about matching a  SET witha  equal performance speaker.

SET s are magical, Speaker needs be same  level of magic.

PP amps, ahhh just about any old speaker will be acceptable.

SETs is a  whole nother amplifie.

 which  demand super high fidelity speakers, 

= Not even 1 tiny flaw/distortion , nada, same level of purity equal to the SETs purity.

Which goes back to my mantra

**Speakers are everything*

 I can find dozens of excellent  SHF SET amps

But can I find dozens of SHF speakers  which are worthy to be  paired with a  SET?

 

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=set&m=64265

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This OP is all about one Q

SHF (wont be long before my new tag phrase catches on,,watch Stereophile begin to employ SHF in their reviews..)

SET + ?which speaker?

SET amplification is SHF vs PP amplification = HF.

SETs are **set** apart from the pack of PP amps

Its a whole nother amplification. Another level, another league of soundstage.

caveat,

light jazz/blues , classical chamber /solo piano/violin. Lets keep this in the discussion please.

 

 

Its a  well known fact by now music via  SET amplification is simply magical,,if not mystical.

w/o a  magical speaker,,  just what do you have?

1/2 the magic. = not practical.

Speaker selection with SET is more critcal than any other type amplification 

 

PP amps, whatever speaker you chose is just fine.

Not so with SET. 

Never ever buy a  SET BEFORE you buy the speakers 

Horse before the cart. 

SET Esoterica

Perhaps even ~A Secret Society~

Or even ~~A Mystery Religion~~

On the other hand when all things are well-matched music just flows and nothing can stop it. 

Indeed, unique and profound words from a review.  I also note the psychedelic characteristics of another.  Throw in some magic and mysticism for some spice, and all is well in the world. 

atmasphere's avatar atmasphere9,960 posts 11-11-2009 10:22pm IMO if there is a subsonic rolloff, you hear it as a diminution of bass impact ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ having not read your further posts, will do so today,, well yes SETs are often taged as roll off at both ends of bandwidtyh I GET THAT But again, as Ive reiterated so often on this board,,how much music are we talking about below 40 hz and above ,,say 10k hz..? maybe 1% Working right now on dual FR, trying to get a tad more bass slam out of a UX250 SET/Colbalt out trans. Runninga single W8 right now and not missing any bass in jazz ensembles. But when we come to classical orch/kettle drums, micing is too far away to get good slam, so addinag 2nd FR might open up a richer bass respose. So the old rumor that SETs roll off lows/highs,, has to be properly explianed. Besides the reason we love SET is for the rich, life like complete midrange Its in this mid band width that PP amps just are not able to match in the same magical nuances. PP are magical amplifiers, BUt SETs are another level of sublimity

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well your post raises up a thought,,,what if this magic ofSETs is the experience that classical composers, jazz quartets intend their music be heard. That is to say, what if the SET opens up this Jimi Hendrex *Are You xperienced* emotive sound field , which remains locked in a stereo system that either has the key of magic, or regretfully does not hav the secret of the code word... Webern’s chamber was quite nice on the Defy/FR, Smooth, clean, nice. But along comes a SET (with a proper solder on a filter cap, which was my 1st listen, and was not wowed, repairs made, SET came to life) and WEbern’s chamber was simply psyche-delic. The music has no source, the speakers, the entire system disappeared, and you are left with your consciousness being mind blown and the musical sound field. SETs are like LSD, you cant describe the exp, either you are initiated or you are outside the initiates.

@mozartfan  Well, I did use LSD back in the day, quite likely Owsley's creation, also did shrooms more frequently. Exclusive use of SET's these days, both 845 and 300B, I do still listen to psychedelic music periodically, add flashbacks, that makes three out of three. Man, I must still be tripping with the bliss I get from present setup!

SET roll off highs ?

My SET has bandwidth -3db from 7 Hertz to 95K Hertz. 

Exclusive use of SET’s these days, both 845 and 300B,

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

haha you old rocker,, I almost did a tab, Purple Haze,, I was scared and nervous, I opoed it in,,but i do think it missed my mouth,, anyway, yes a single FR + SET is pure magic.. I just uploaded a YT vid showing dual FR . Success? WEll yes and no. No as in the intimate exp of a SET magic + a single driver and the listener is now broken. What you get is more dynamics. For my classical it works ok,, for jazz fans, I’d have to say,, its a matter of room size and recording characteristics. And if you are willing to sacrifice some linear purity for more dynamics.

 

But there is no doubt in my mind SET is  the  ultimate amplification for true highest fidelity. PP amplification is 2nd place to SET. Did you hear that Jadis, your PP amps do not get the Cuban Cigar..

MY Jadis::

 

**BUT all the big money audiophiles demand massive ohm sucking speakers, which require 100+ lb PP amps. ***

 

GOT it. But guess what, your PP amps take 2nd place to a SET. No Cigar. 

alexberger474 posts 11-28-2021 1:52pm SET roll off highs ? My SET has bandwidth -3db from 7 Hertz to 95K Hertz

 

 

. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I dont know,,maybe its a idea I got visiting Audiogon yrs ago in discussion about SET amps,, So yeah SETs do all and everythinga PP amp can do,,,~~~ But better.... SETs rule.

I have had most of everything out there ,and owned a Audio store 

SET. Amps are great holographic midrange especially  300 B  but are softer at the extremes , 845 I feel has more drive , you should have a very efficient speaker 

adding good powered subs is a plus  from my experiences.

Try adding DHT preamp, my Coincident Statement MkII uses 10D tube, have Psvane WE, Linlai Elite mesh and solid plates to choose from. My 300B monoblocks aren't soft at either freq. extremes, each has power supply equal to what you generally see in stereo 300B, silver litz internal wire, hand wound transformers, Texas Component TX2575 nude vishay resistors, Miflex caps, using Psvane Acme 300B. My 300B very similar to my 845 in both not the old fashioned tube sound. I've had a variety of SET over the years, all in modern sound vein. Did the romantic route years ago, limited my enjoyment for all genre of music. With 845 I've done as low as 90db sensitivity speakers, no steep slope impedance issues.

Now I switch between the two systems. They both sound awesome. They both have compromises. But they both have synergies and areas where their performance excels. Neither is perfect. The destination should be contentment, not perfection. Everything matters and there’s always something better out there.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well I can’t subscribe to everything you just said. As I hear the 2 designs, I much prefer SET amplification. Now its true I’ve only heard 1 SET amp and several PP amps. Buts it my firm belief SET delivers almost all the bass ofa PP amp, superior midrange and almost same level of highs as a PP amp. Thus SET’s offer superior nuances and make fora finer musical experience. Seems IMHO PP amps **push and pull** the music. = a bit more aggressive sound. Attacks. SETs never ever attach, More relax, refined, laid back, more natural, neutral, linear. Significant number of numances superior = SETs offer a superior musical soundstage. And with the new FR drivers out past few years, big PP amps are not needed any longer. They served their purpose as we all know audiophiles for decades now have been enomoraed with big box xover types, highly IN-efficient thus rendering the need for big muscular PP amps. My plan is to own a good SET amp one day, and us my Defy7 as a 2nd amp, backup of sorts, But never as Principle Amplifier. Jadis now takes 2nd place. Jadis catered to the audiophile community that wanted pure big bad power for their low sens speakers, Jadis delivered the goods.

 

But in another 10 years, big PP amps, eh, dime a dozen. Used market will be flooded with PP amps. Dime a dozen. Give away prices. In 20 years it will be all SET. SETs are a superior amplifier is so many ways. Jadis will not be able to compete with china SET made amplifiers. At that time. Jadis is going in the wrong direction with their new KT150 and KT170 designs.

You could not give me a jadis KT170 amp. I alrady have their Defy7, why would I need yet another PP amplifier = all PP sound basically the same. El34/KT88/KT120/KT150/KT170, nuances of dif.

 

SETs offer a  greater nuanced  realm of musical experience.

SET. Amps are great holographic midrange especially 300 B but are softer at the extremes , 845 I feel has more drive

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You know I was *set** on getting the 845 with 300B as drive tubes,, Pehaps I should consider a 300B SET before making final decision. My tech says the 300B tube was made for the tele industry and so big roll off at both ends of the band widths. I’m going to take this up in discussion with tech today.

WE, Linlai Elite mesh and solid plates to choose from. My 300B monoblocks aren't soft at either freq. extremes, ea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hummm , here we go with another vote for 300B amplification. You know i listen exclusively to CM,, which has kettle drums, deep cello sections, is mainly centered in midrange. hummm I need to figure out going 300B or 845. Going to hear some 300B's on youtube now, see hows the bass/highs. And yes I can hear how a amp performs via the right music/w a good upload. /Correct speaker.

sure glad we revived this discussion,. 

I'm going ~~~300B~~~. 

845's too heavy and out my budget. 

If anyone has a  300B they are not using, please contact me, Budget is 2G;'s

If you are considering parallel SET, be aware of the issue of one tube in a channel pair becoming much stronger than the other such that, in short order, you lose the full power capability of such amps.  Even when one starts with supposedly matched pairs, they tend to quickly become unmatched.  I've had this happen in my Audio Note Kageki, and others running parallel SETs have noted this issue too.  

I have my doubts about any "cheap" 845 amp.  Many really don't run the specified plate voltage for that tube, and the ones that do, would have to be properly built to be safe to operate, and that means higher cost.   The same would apply to 211 and other higher powered SET tubes.  

I hope the $2,000 budget for a 300B amp is the budget for something used, and is not the budget including the output tubes, because decent 300b tube would eat up a very significant part of that budget.  That would leave not much for other parts, particularly the output transformer which is not cheap in a SET amplifier.  If you can build your own gear, the 300b kit offered by Elekit sounds decent and is quite inexpensive for what one gets.  But, I still have my doubts about "budget" SET vs. the many inexpensive vintage pushpull amps that are available.  There is no inherent superiority of any particular design, and a good pushpull transformer amp and pushpull OTL amp can be the right choice to deliver the goods.

There is no inherent superiority of any particular design ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Fully aware this is the general consensus in audiophile beliefs. But seems to be, the best for me let say, maybe not for others, is the SET.

Seems to me push pull is the proper tag for that typology, **pushes and pulls** the delicate musical signal apart. IOW shreds, the electrors to tiny bits. vs a SET , pure linear, natural, just stunning. Lets say PP attacks the listener

VS ,

 

SET gently caresses the music.

Nothing wrong with PP for hard rock, big blues, big jazz bands

larry is correct in that output/power tubes critical for SET. The difference between Shuguang Black Treasure and Psvane Acme 300B is like night and day. Shuguang like $250 pair, Psvane $900-$1k pair. The Elrog, WE, Linlai Elite, EML, Takatsuki will all be $1-$1.7K pair.

I'd never purchase budget 845, we're talking 900 volts, some major hurt if these things malfunction.

 

I have two stereo amps and two pair of speakers. All-tube preamp (Supratek Cortese).

One system is Quad 2805s driven by Quad 909. They have a certain coherence and beauty.

The other system is JBL 4430s driven by humble AES SE-1 300b, with the 12AU7 pre-driver stage modification Dennis Had described in Sound Practices Issue 6. This modification replaces the 6SL7 with the 12 AU7 driving a 6SN7. Given the humble pedigree of the SE-1, this modification is nothing less than Ingenious. Maybe someday I'll hear a higher-pedigree 300b amp. As it is, I love the sound of this thing. Beautiful, coherent sound. The JBLs are 93dB efficient and I listen in the near field, so I'm seldom using a full watt. All kinds of music sound good through my system.

Re-reading what I've written, truth is I don't think I've contributed anything of value to this discussion, other than to say I love the sound of my humble 300b SET amp. And maybe to suggest that you don't have to spend inordinate amounts of money to get a taste of the magic. 

 

In the mid-late 90’s I had a 2A3 PP amp from Cary audio. It was very SET like in its presentation and would work with not so sensitive speakers. It made several hard core SS folks listen up and take notice.  Too bad the reliability was an issue with these amps, they did sound quite good. I tried bi-amping using the2A3 on top and SS on the bottom..  Never got it sorted out well enough and moved on.. But the 2A3 sound is intoxicating.

Speaking in very broad, generalized, terms, I tend to find pushpull amps to have a "tighter" more punchy sound than SET amps.  But, too much of that quality and the sound seems a bit artificial or "mechanical" and less natural than the more relaxed sound of good SET amps.  For me, for example, KT88 pushpull amps tend to be particularly likely to sound too punchy and mechanical for my taste, but, as with everything in audio, there are always exceptions. 

I like MANY pushpull amps (this would include OTL amps), while I also like SET amps.  It is never as simple as saying one type is better than another.  Right now, I favor my pushpull 349 tube amp over my SET amp (the SET amp costs considerably more), but, in some respects I still do prefer the SET amp--although the bass is less powerful and tight, it sounds more subtly "musical" (the quality of the bass changes with the music and sounds less "same" and "mechanical" as my pushpull 349 amp).  Both sound harmonically saturated, deliver an expansive and immersive soundstage, and sound relaxed and natural while still being very lively sounding; the pushpull 349 just delivers a little bit more of these qualities.  

Speaking in very broad, generalized, terms, I tend to find pushpull amps to have a "tighter" more punchy sound than SET amps.  But, too much of that quality and the sound seems a bit artificial or "mechanical" and less natural than the more relaxed sound of good SET amps.  For me, for example, KT88 pushpull amps tend to be particularly likely to sound too punchy and mechanical for my taste, but, as with everything in audio, there are always exceptions. 

I agree- I tend to see punchy bass as a coloration, since you never seem to run into it in live events. I've played in orchestras, jazz and folk ensembles, rock bands and just not encountered it. I think its the product of an overdamped speaker to a certain degree but I don't think that's all of it.

The distortion signature is what is at play here IMO. Most pentode-based amps employ a bit of feedback, but since they really don't have enough, they have an obvious distortion signature (the amplifier's 'sonic signature'). Some of that includes harmonics of bass fundamental tones, generated by the feedback itself. The ear is interpreting them as 'punchy' (and yes, this happens with many solid state amps too). IMO/IME the way around this is to make sure the amp is as linear as possible, so much so that it will sound reasonably decent with no feedback at all. Only then do you apply the feedback- and then it should be used to control gain more than anything else. With a pentode-based amp I suspect this would mean that the output section is wired Ultra-Linear.

But many pentode output stages really aren't that linear and need the feedback to linearize them. That is a bad move IMO. You can't get rid of all the distortion and if you start with a high distortion amp, the feedback will cause it to have a less musical distortion signature overall when you're done. Amps that have zero feedback have a different distortion signature that tends to favor the lower ordered harmonics which will mask the presence of the higher orders. But if you have no feedback you also have a much more limited range of speakers that are practical with the amp. For more on this see

The Power Paradigm Vs the Voltage Paradigm

 

Hey Plinko, The artifacts are phase shifts. The square wave stays good, its relative position is slightly different compared to where it should be.

I'm quite amazed at the diversity of the answers and the strong conviction behind the opinions. I'm on the side of keeping an open mind, as there are always surprises and it's so easy to run into the "I stand corrected" scenario. When going for recommendations, they all come through subjective filters. Just like asking about steaks: the answer depends whether you ask a meat lover or a vegan....

When people report loving something it comes from hearing a properly set up system with that topology. Negative opinions on the other hand come from lack of experience. Do not place much value on those (regardless of what architecture is being dissed.) Just remember: audio is not a perfect science, every topology has its flaws and compromises. When the ad says that one major flaw has been corrected, it can only be done through introducing a compromise somewhere else. In most cases the manufacturers are keenly aware of the shortcomings, but they don't want to rub it in our faces. (Product will not sell.) 

All being said - solid state easier to find for show and crowd-pleasing, and SET for meditation and contemplation.

Just stay focused with your purpose: do not buy a horse to sing, and do not get a bird to pull your wagon. Enjoy diversity.

 

 

 

 

 

@realworldaudio  Thanks for the laugh. So which definition of Plinko should I assume? 😊

+1 to this as well as so many of your posts.

larryi2,703 posts 11-29-2021 12:01pm Speaking in very broad, generalized, terms, I tend to find pushpull amps to have a "tighter" more punchy sound than SET amps. But, too much of that quality and the sound seems a bit artificial or "mechanical" and less natural than the more relaxed sound of good SET amps. For me, for example, KT88 pushpull amps tend to be particularly likely to sound too punchy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes the Defy’s 12 KT88 tubes in certain recordings that offer a punding bass line is wayyy too much low hz’s for my 10x15 room. Grates my nerves,e ven at low vol. Mundorf supreme caps both in the W18Excdel and Defy7’s coupling caps, Now with dual FR and eliminated 1 W18, runninga single with a 20 uf Mundorf Supreme,, I know the bass will be explosive when I retube the Defy in Janurary. At 100watts, per channel, its not a good match for higher sens FR. But it will have to work, as thats my current amplifier. Luckily I listen only to CM, so might keep the W18 in, as most CM is recorded with mics distant from kettle drums and cello sections. But for hard driving music, + big PP amp, extra large room is a must to endure the pounding low range. I just uploaded a new video with the single W18 Dual FR and tweeter. results were good. Details open up, but lose some of that laid back linear magic, but gain in dynamics. I prefer duals vs a single FR. SETs are more laid back, the music flows witha natural grace and charm. While PP amps, as Larry correctly points out has this **driving* energy, again which some may prefer. Bottom line as I hear the 2 amps, with PP just about any speaker will work. Although both my techs mentioned over and over ,,,and over,, **You realize you have the wrong speaker for the Defy,,don’t You??...** I politely disagreed.

The Seas Thors with the Defy was a stunning experience,,

 

that is you like xovers and low efficiency,,and lastly have no issues with a middwoofer carrying mids up to the 2k+ hz region and a dome tweeter going as low to pick up where the midwoofer left off. I’ve not heard the king of all SETs a 845 big power tube. Thats a ways off, and have big expectations. Givena choice of Jadis new KT170 or a 845, no contest, 845 will dedliver a sound field full of nuances that will leave Jadis KT170 behind in the dust. I think the era of big PP power amps is slowly riding off into the sunset. SET’s star is arising in the eastern horizon.

 

China manufacturers are making SET’s at a more reasonable price with stunning designs. Once you hear a SET, PP amplification has lost some of its sheen. .

@david_ten

Thanks David! ;

There was a user named plino who was asking the question about the effects of the rolloff further from region where it starts to roll off noticeably.

I guess I missed the @@@ :)

I did say above 

**PP amps are not so much needed with a  SET around, now more readily avaliable..**

WEll I am still in experimenting stage.

I am learning alot about what a  SET does and  not doing so well.

Depends on the recording, music.

Its a complex issue.

When I get new KT88's in the Defy, I can make further comments, 

In classical chamber/light jazz/blues, a  SET  takes precedence , pure linearity, astonishing rendering of the midrange.

With more complex music, like say Santana McLaughlin Love Devotion Surrender,  Although SETs offer... every detail in midrange, the bass and highs are indeed rolled off a  bit

So here's some  early conclusions.

CM being mainly midrange, roll off in highs and lows (as engineers miced  far away from kettle drums, cello sections, which is how a  orch SHOULD be mic-ed)

SETs excel in linera/liquid midrange

Full Range Speakers are not really **full range** But the DIYers wish   the FR tag remain on the speaker. A Full Range is really a  FULL Midrange with some bass, some highs

So the Equation goes

CM + SET + FR = perfect combination. 

That is to say if you love CM in all its variations, there is no better amplifier than a  SET and for speakers, nothing will outperform a  **Full* Range speaker.

In driving jazz/blues, seems to me PP amplification is the power for the superior soundstage.

And  in more complex music, a  midwoofer with cutoff somewhere at 500-1khz is  a  must have. Any tweeter is also a  must have, both in light jazz/chamber and complex driving music. Adds sheen.

So to anser the OP 

*Are SETs  the best?*

DEpends on what music is on the turn table and what the audiophile expects. 

 

I had to bring up speakers in the topic, as a  SET amp w/o the right speaker,,and what do  we have?

In comes horns and or FR.

PP amps  are not as limited in speaker selection. 

But I would strongly recommend FR + Assist for all tube amplification. 

My guess is the Defy will render the Love Devotion Surrender cd with more dynamics, bass/high extenstions. 

So I was indeed wrong in my above opinion, a  SET is not **end all/be all**

There is still a   place   for a  PP amplifier. in certain recordings. 

That said, I wonder if  hooked up dual  8 inch manesium midwoofers,  and had  the 845 amplification , now its more than likely my opinion is indeed correct.

WE do not need a  PP amplifier.

The main issue with a  845 amplifier is the weight and price tag. 

Takes resources to obtain a  845 amplifier. And really , ideally best are  mono blocks. 

If I could do it all over again,  I would not have a big PP amp, it would be the 845 + FR speakers.

I went down the wrong path, 

Then again, the DavidLouis were not out back in 2008, and I would never pay $5k for a  FR driver. 

So its all finally comming together.

FR is the ideal speaker for a   845 SET,,all I need now is the mono blocks.

I believe a  845 will do everything the Defy 7 with 12 KT88's can do, but only much superior.

So ,,, back again,,, PP amps are not at all needed  when there is a  845 in the house. Thats my final opinion, 845 surpasses all PP amlification in all genres. 

The 845 has more muscle than a  300B , UX250 and many other SET designs. 

 

 

 

Let me try to summerize  my very long winded post above

~~SET amplificatio allows <<<more>> of the emotional expression of the music to come through~~~

 

<<More>> meaning are the speakers  CAPABLE of voicing this emotive expression??

SEe how amp + speakers is critical in SET amplification. 

AS my mantra goes 

Speakers are everything

EVEN MORESO critical with a  SET amplifier. 

 

Just trying to express things that are longgggg over due for clearing  up 

~~~The Mystery of SETs~~~

and the saga of the Magical Mystery Tour (Beatles 1967) of SET discovery continues........

Wow! More of the ever-evolving absolute conclusions based on very limited experience.  It is one thing to say that you have heard, and liked, a certain 845 amp running a particular set up, but, that does not then lead to a conclusion that "845 surpasses all PP amplification in all genres" and that PP amps are not needed.  

I have heard a number of 845 amps, and liked quite a few, but, none were clearly better than a whole bunch of SETs running other tubes.  If higher power is needed, does it have to be an 845?  How many 211, 833 and 1610 amps have you similarly auditioned?  In all of these comparisons, how many pushpull amps and tube types have you auditioned other than the Defy7?  Also, OTL amps are pushpull amps--how many of these have you also auditioned?  

No none of the above

Hey Larry

I am only basiing my opinions on some sound bites from our local tech,,who has heard quite a few SETs and has built a 300B SET.

All I was trying to say is that the 845 hasa good reputation for delivering the goods.

My tech points in the 845 direction for what he feels will give me best bang.

He also likes most other SET tubes.

I mean if we want to take this to the last word in SETs

There’s always Kronzilla 4 tube PER CHASSIS!!!! Super SET.

Now that amp will beat any PP amp.

 

But back to reality.

Sure my exp is limited to the UX250,

What I was trying to express is a SET design will offer a certain liquid midrange that I doubt even Jadis new KT170 will deliver.

Again not heard the 170 but PP is not going to be same sound image as a SET.

btw my tech does not care for the 300B in any part of a SET design. AS main or driver.

But again my guess is the bass of a KT PP amp will deliver a superior bass response, and maybe highs.

Give and take.

I prefer midrange liquid gold, as my CM is 95%+ midrange fq’s.

SET vs PP 2 dif sound fields. .

All I was trying to say is that the 845 hasa good reputation for delivering the goods.

My tech points in the 845 direction for what he feels will give me best bang.

He also likes most other SET tubes.

Liking a tube is very different from how it can be made to perform 😁

The simple fact is the more power the SET has, the more limited its bandwidth. This is because the higher the power the output transformers designed for SETs are, the more limited their bandwidth. Its inescapable (except in marketing literature).

The more limited the bandwidth, the more phase shift is introduced (unless you have a mess of feedback to control it; not possible with a tube amp). Phase shift messes with the soundstage; not saying you won't have one, but it will be more palpable if the phase shift isn't there.

That is why the 300b was King 30 years ago, why the 2A3 supplanted it 20 years ago and why the type 45 is reigning now. So we went from 7  watts to 4 and from 4 to 0.75Watts. Compared to these tubes in terms of the sound quality you get, the 845 is fun but not in the running.

I'm with Atmasphere on the choice of tube.  I prefer the lower-powered tubes for SET amps, and I like the tubes in the order he presented--from 300b to 45 (the 45 sounds great if you can get by with a very low amount of power.  My own SET runs parallel 2a3 tubes; I wish it was set up to run 45s instead (some others I know who own the same model of amp run 45s in place of the 2a3, but, the tubes don't last very long).  

My Dennis Had SEP (pentode) is plenty loud and clear into my alleged 99db rated Heresy III speakers, enhanced by a couple of RELs. I simply don’t care much about opinions of others regarding things they haven’t heard (i.e. my system), although some here have garnered my respect generally...I’ve owned a couple of these Had Firebottle HOs ("high output" or "prostitute" depending of who you believe) and the one I kept sounded best and is a bit louder than the rejected one (a newer version, but still...outta here!). Suffice to say that after many decades of enjoying various well designed SS amps, the single ended tubester stays right where it sits. That said, I might try a Pass XA 25 someday since I can.

I was a die hard SET guy for decades.

And 45s are the best. The lower the power, the more the magic.

However, I now have my destination amps-AGD Audion mono blocks.

I do not miss SETs at all. The AGDs are like a great SET combined with a great SS. They give an “open window” into the sound and make even the best SET dull.

mglik614 posts 12-01-2021 5:32pm I was a die hard SET guy for decades. And 45s are the best. The lower the power, the more the magic. However, I now have my destination amps-AGD Audion mono blocks. I do not miss SETs at all. The AGDs are like a great SET combined with a great SS. They give an “open window” into the sound and make even the best SET dull. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well its now beena few more days of listening to various recordings,,, now moved into big symphonic works,,, hummm, , well initially I was captivated completely by the magic of the UX250 SET amplifier ina dual Full-Midrange-Speaker system... Got to rethink this before I click BUY NOW on the 845 amplifer I am looking at. 1st i need to get some new KT88's in the Defy. Its possible I may be missing some of the dynamics and power of the Defy in symphonic works. Just waiting on my tech to get back with me, before I make any final decisions. Although it would not be til July when I had the cash for the 845,,I just like to know if the plan is scraped or still on the planning table... **lower the power , more the magic.** 'No you see I need MORE power to deliver symphonic works with dynamnics and more weight in bass, better extrention in highs. Got to think this through and proceed with caution. Actually I have no issues with the Defy, other than, with the excessive power, limits the abibilty to empoy more gain on the linestage vol pot. My room is 10x15,,, 60 db SPL is where I am confortable. This is the issue, I want more freedom on the vol pot, which the UX250 allows, But the more gain, does not deliver more dynamics. Seems a SET and PP amplifier operates under dif parimeters of power/gain from linestage. New tubes janurary, I will let you know how the speaker respond with new tubes on my new dual Full-Midrange-speaker system. The older tubes had 4k+ hours So some of the upper sheen had worn off. If the new tubes add some sparkles, I may pass on adding a 2nd amplifier.

There can be tradeoffs with SET. With 845 I can run speakers as low as 90db sensitivity, gives me lots of choices. With my extreme modded Klipschorns, 845 and 300B give different but both entirely satisfying presentations. Previously ran 2a3, limited speaker choices. I've been contemplating 2a3 or 45 for Klipschorns (104db) but have seen a few negative comments for the pairing. Klipshcorns do have a decently severe impedance curve in lower mids.

 

Anyway, 845 most exciting SET I've owned, 300B sweethearts, 2A3 inner luminescence. Topologies matter, implementation matters, partnering speaker matters, get it right, wonderful, wrong, less than wonderful.

The AGDs are like a great SET ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just looked at the ADG page , 7 lbs, wow thats amazing, 170 watts. Just curious, $7500 each mono, so a pair $14K , yes? I'd like to seea close up of this tube. Looks amazing. But only 7 lbs??. huh?

@hanaleimike

Over the years I have owned many Tube amps. (Anthem Integrated One, Amp One, VTL MB-450's, Zesto Eros 300's, and Prima Luna.) The best sounding one was the Zesto Mono-blocks. Push Pull pure Class A. However, they are very expensive and being Class A plus Tube. They run very, very hot.
My experience has been SET does not always equal the best sound. It depends on your speakers, room, and program material you like. Both the VTL and Prima Luna designs offer switchable SET functions.
What you gain when in SET mode, is more sweetness. The upper mid-range and treble have more emphasis lending a more realistic, natural sound to vocals. Mighty good stuff if your music library consists of Singer-Songwriter, Bluegrass, and vocal centered Jazz.

The down side is, the lower end is not as well defined, tight, and punchy. If you listen Rap, Hip-Hop, large scale Symphonic, Rock, or EDM, you may find the bass lacking or too mushy.
The other consideration is the efficiency of the speaker you like. A lot of the 300b designs like the Decware Zen are a very low  2 to 6 watts. Depending on the model. So you will want to mate them with something from Klipcsh or Tekton. Anything that very efficient with stable impedance should work. Nonetheless these flea powers variants are probably not the best choice for a Maggie LRS.

Whatever you get into you will want audition and make sure it fits your tastes, speaker choice, and you find that SET sound is to your liking.

The amps I currently use, I hardly ever put them in triode. The music I listen to is very bass heavy. Thus the CDs and Albums I play soud their best when I have my amps set to push-pull. When I put on Diana Krall or Alison Krauss then I switch my amps into Triode, for a more palpable presentation of their performance.  

 

The price of the Audion is $7500 Pair, we did not change the price since January 2020.

As with all amps, power supplies are critical to best performance. My custom built 300B monoblocks each use power supply one generally sees in stereo amp. Larger, better ps equals more filtering-resolving powers, reserves of power-transient, micro and macro dynamics. Add in some silver internal wiring, hand output transformers, no soft romantic old fashioned 300B sound. Actually nearly the equal of my 845 in most of impact related sound qualities. Hard to believe when you compare 845, 300B power supplies. 300B  power supply looks silly small in comparison to either of my 845's. Again, power tubes make large difference in SET, some romantic or old fashion sound, others modern sound, more linear.

 

I agree, SET will never be objectively best topology, just as any topology isn't. Each person has their own values as to what sounds best. Certainly, speaker choice is more limited vs higher power amps, although continually seeing introduction of more high efficiency speakers over time.

Mozartfan-

The “tube” in the AGD Audions contains the proprietary GaN output stage.

The glass envelope facilities heat disbursement and can be easily replaced with future improvement. 
The GaN module used is the only such chip developed specifically for Audio.

AGD has just come out with a stereo amp called the Tempo. It uses a aluminum chassis cut from a solid billet. It is a more conventional design without the “tube” but utilizing the same technology. I believe the price is $5400.

Thus it differs from any other GaN based amps. I believe my explanation is accurate.

The GaN module used is the only such chip developed specifically for Audio.

AGD has just come out with a stereo amp called the Tempo. It uses a aluminum chassis cut from a solid billet. It is a more conventional design without the “tube” but utilizing the same technology. I believe the price is $5400.

Thus it differs from any other GaN based amps. I believe my explanation is accurate.

@mglik Its not. The first sentence in the post above isn’t right. A ’GaN module’ isn’t a chip. Its a circuit board, likely with chips on it. And none of them are specifically designed for audio, although the module is, but its not the only module designed for audio.

The statement that it ’differs from any other GaN based amps’ is tricky. All GaN based amps are different, so technically the statement is true. But installing a GaN based module in an aluminum chassis is commonplace.

This is not to denigrate Alberto’s designs- far from it. He was involved with GaNFET manufacturing and knows how to use them very well. But no GaNFET is built specifically for audio.

 

Excuse the misuse of the word chip. Guess module is accurate.

And I am not saying that GaN technology is necessarily the best Class D.

Only that it currently seems to be a method that is quite popular.

My comment about Alberto’s module being specifically designed for Audio comes from the early review, believe it was Enjoy the Music. It pointed out that “all” other current GaN based amps use existing modules with chips that are currently used in non Audio devises like power chargers. Alberto’s design was focused on the use in his amps. This is my understanding.