SET amp comparable to First Watt SIT 1?


I’m currently planning to change my speakers to high efficiency horn from modern high end speakers (B&W). The speakers would be Volti horn speakers.

For amp, A friend of mine has First Watt SIT-1, which sounds great to my ears, but I have always been interested in tube SET, especially 300B. The problem is there are too many choices around, and I have read several online reviewers stated that 300B amps don’t sound as good as First Watt SIT 1, except extremely expensive ones with NOS WE300B.

Any suggestions?

My budget is around 7-15K. I don’t mind second hand ones, but I wish I could compare it with my friend’s SIT 1 before I decide to take it or not, so second hand unit is probably not an option.
tmare

Showing 19 responses by charles1dad

I’ll also mention the Ocellia 300b mono blocks (Canadian) Thoress  Audio (German) and Raven Audio Spirit stereo chassis (American). 
Tmare, there was a long thread on Audiogon a few years ago about First Watt vs SET amplifiers. Many good comments based on actual listening to both. As expected there was no consensus, some chose F.W. S.I.T.and others said their SET was preferable after comparison . Just too many variables involved to arrive at an absolute winner. You’re right about the many choices of 300b SETs available and there is a hierarchy. You don’t have to use the ultra expensive W.E. tubes to get superb sound quality Takatsuki and EML XLS are excellent choices. The Elrog 300b is excellent however only reliable in certain amplifiers, so they aren’t a universal choice.

With your price range you can get truly terrific SET amplifiers with top tier quality output transformers and power supplies. I believe the S.I.T. or a high quality SET can make you happy long term. Take some time to do some research. Gary recommend Border Patrol, other good contenders Coincident Frankenstein MK II, Triode Corp of Japan TRX series, Audion, Airtight, Audio Note, Wavelength, there are definitely good choices available. In your price range you can get truly fine 845 SET amplifiers if interested. 
Charles
I recommended the Coincident Frankenstein MK II  as I've owned it for 7 years and it is superb in my opinion.  I also listed other brands of amplifiers that I believe are superb choices.  Simply impossible to say that one particular amplifier is the best.  There's a generous source of excellent sounding SET amplifiers to select from.  You only need to find one. I'd never suggest that the Frankenstein is better than any other,  I can say unequivocally that it reproduces music beautifully.
Charles  
Tmare,
If at all possible I'd strongly urge you to directly compare a high quality 300b SET to an Atma-sphere amplifier and judge for yourself.  I've done this myself. Both amplifiers were very good but certainly  with different presentations. I preferred the 300b SET sound and the obvious point is opinions/preferences will of course vary.

I believe that either choice has excellent potential with your Volti speakers.
Charles
I've heard a David Berning amplifier but not the Linear Tube Audio amplifiers. I believe that they utilize a high radio  frequency transformer in place of a traditional output transformer. These are more reasonably priced than the David Berning line. 

There are many good lower power amplifiers to choose from when you have a high sensitivity/efficient speaker such as the Volti. 
Charles 
Tmare,
I fully understand your predicament in trying to narrow down the field of worthy amplifiers. It is frustrating in the sense that it is not really  realistic to be able to hear these various 300b SET ampliifiers and particularly in your own system. It is by nature very subjective (just look at the responses thus far) and all of us have our own bias and preferences.

Then there’s the question of what is 300b sound? You can generalize in only a broad and somewhat vague sense as different 300b amplifiers have their own sound. Circuit, part quality, transformers and power supply are significant factors of sonic influence. Then factor in the variable of different brands of the 300b tube itself.

Even the same country of origin there’s ample variety. Japan for instance offers many choices, each with its own musical character. Some offer more grunt and drive than others,some more warmth, others more neutral and transparent. You get the point I’m sure.

Volti has mated with the Border Patrol at a number of shows, that list I posted yesterday consists of high quality alternatives. Tmare I don’t blame you for wanting to experience a 300b SET amplifier. A good one has the capacity to thoroughly connect you on a deep emotional level with your music.
Charles
Sal is right in that the very high sensitivity of the Volti Vittoria makes all of the low power DHT tubes viable options. The problem is which one? There are countless threads on numerous audio forums regarding this genre of tubes,. Everyone has their favorite, some say that the 45 is better than both the 2A3 and 300b,. Others insist the rarer 50 is superior, another person would be an advocate for the PX 25, it never ends. You could spend half a lifetime sampling the vast world of SET amplifiers given the plethora of choices in the marketplace.

Say that an 2A3 SET were chosen, which particular one? They all do not sound the same. Tmare has specifically on two occasions expressed a desire to go with the 300b. I would try to hear the Border Patrol (top of his own current list) and use that SET amplifier as a point of reference and go from there.  Honestly any of the DHT  tubes mentioned above in the hands of a talented builder and high level implementation will yield an excellent SET amplifier. 
Good luck,
Charles
Hello Sal,
I agree. That’s the fun and (potential) frustration, there  are many good choices/paths available 😊.
Charles
Agree,
The Electra Fidelity 300b SET ìs very good sounding.
I listened to it driving the Cessaro horn speakers in the High Water Sound room for an extended session during CES a few years ago. No doubt that it’s very natural and convincing. It filled a pretty large space with realistic beautiful and engaging music reproduction. Many good SET choices.
Charles
Tmare,
You are correct to follow your instincts and simply trusting what you hear. You've discovered the world of lower power  (but high quality) amplifiers and higher efficiency speakers.  This is a very rewarding pathway. In this genre there's a lot of worthy choices and you'll never hear them all. It will all come together in time. Keep reading, learning and listening. 
Charles 
213cobra,
Very insightful comments and again another excellent recommendation regarding the Audion line of SET amplification . What do you think of the suggestion above for lncreaed watts via higher power OTL as a perhaps better alternative for the Volti speakers? I believe either path can be sucessful. I’m admittedly personally drawn to the full harmonic qualities and nuance  of well executed SET that you referenced. Many roads lead to Rome.
Charles
Phil,
I've used the Takatsuki, KR and EML XLS 300b in my Coincident SET amplifier and all three are of premium quality level. I have a slight preference of the EML XLS  over the KR but could reflect amplifier differences as well as listener.  Border Patrol vs Audition is an  interesting contrast as their approach is quite  different.  The BP utilize large external power supplies whereas Audions are smaller, more compact and noticeably lighter in weight. Both have earned esteemed reputations and offer upgraded models in their lines. As said before, there are numerous top quality choices among the 300b SET amplifiers.
Charles 
Audiopax Model 88 utilize the KT 88 tubes and is an exotic and more complicated design than the very simple circuit of a 300b SET amplifier. The Audiopax was very well regarded but its talented Brazilian designer/builder died several years ago. This would be a rare find on the used market.
Charles
Hi tmare,
You have a generous size listening room. You’re beginning to express some concerns. Why don’t you call Volti and talk with the builder himself? Parallel SET 300b, 845 or 211 SETs are options. Ask the builder his thoughts regarding OTL amplifiers as well. Discussion with him is a good starting point in my opinion.  Man oh man,  you have wonderful options. 
Charles
Hello Phil,
I'm inclined to believe my EMLs were from a better batch than yours based on your comments.  I've alternated between my Takatsuki and EML XLS the past few years.  In my amplifier the EML have been simply stellar,  workhorse reliable and as quiet as any 300b I've used. There were subtle distinctions between the the KR and EML with the latter a bit more vibrant, open, alive and engaging. I certainly trust your judgement and listening impressions,  but again different set of ears,amplifier, system and room environment. IMO both are top tier choices. 

Tmare, 
I was actually suggesting you talk with the builder of  the  Volti and see what he may suggest in terms of Your room and musical tastes. I'm sure that he would provide worthwhile insight regarding his two speakers and your objectives.
Charles 
Gary,
You and I go back quite far with our mutual admiration of the superb Takatsuki. I have come to suspect my amplifier may be a little tough on some 300b tubes. In the past 4 1/2 years I had to replaced 2 individual Takasuki tubes (done without any hassle per my Japanese source AMS Tram). The EML XLS is a heavy duty constructed 300b and seems very well suited in my amplifier. Reports say this durable 300b has a life span capacity of 40,000 hours ( similar to the discontinued AVVT SL 32).

A friend of mine has a very upscale and accurate tube tester. He tested my EMLs when they were brand new 3 1/2 years ago. He recently tested them and they measure "exactly" the same and they are used frequently in my system. This is a very rugged tube that also sounds superb in my amplifier. The Elrog 300b is sublime in sound quality but too fragile for my particular amplifier.
Charles
A friend of mine is a happy owner of the Atmasphere MA-1 amplifier and MP-1 preamplifier. He has efficient and easily driven speakers ( so amplifier power wasn't a determining factor). We compared his amp with my 300b SET and no other system component was changed. Both of these amplifiers were "very" transparent, open, fast and clear. Both had exceptional staging, imaging focus and music flow/pace. The SET playing the same recordings was fuller in tone and body with an increased sense of presence. It presented harmonic information that was more vibrant and a bit richer.The Atmasphere was relatively more towards a leaner sound (but by no means pale,sterile or flat). Different people will prefer one or the other. I happen to be drawn more to the fuller instrument sound and nuance of the SET.  Both amplifiers are very fine but speak with their own sonic character.
Charles
Atmasphere,
Yes , I've heard the distortion argument rendered many times and that may in fact explain to some degree what I am hearing.What is interesting is the fact that the SET consistently sounds more real and closer to what I experience at live unamplified venues. That's why I just follow my ears and choose what sounds right and more life like. Again we all will listen and make our personal choices whatever direction that may be.
Charles
Tmare,
This upcoming experience should be fun and educational. Keep us informed on your findings.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Charles