Tube virgin, here. I am building a system and I'm trying to contain the preamp/amp cost to $3k or so. (I could go up a little.)
I'm inclined not to dive into tubes all the way through, but get a solid state on the output end. (Open to suggestions; inclined toward PS Audio, Parasound.) I'm reading around about tube preamps and have talked with my local dealer, who sells Black Ice/Jolida and Prima Luna (PL). He used to carry Rogue but said they kept coming back for repairs. That's why he carries PL.
I'm asking these questions after having established (via reviews, comments) that Schiit gear is quite the value. Lately, I've been reading about Decware and other small tube makers. I'm very curious about buying direct, if possible, and a company that stands behind their products is crucial.
So, your opinions about tube integrated or *especially* tube preamps —
1. Who do you like? Consider I want to do pre/amp for a total of $3k if possible.
2. Do you think PL is worth all that money just for a preamp? I get the feeling they're high quality but a bit over-hyped. (No disrespect to the highly passionate Kevin Deal, but he's all over my search results.) And what would you think about $2k/$1k preamp-to-amp spending ratio?
3. Any sense of what happened to Jolida since the name change to "Black Ice"? I see there's a sordid story there but did the re-branding clear up the mess? Any experiences with the Black Ice company?
4. I know there are many Schiit fans out there; so my question would be -- did anyone consider Schiit for tube preamp and go another way? Or move beyond Schiit for any particular reason? It's hard not to just capitulate and do a Freya+ or Saga+ but why wouldn't one just go with Schiit?
In the case of an amplifier having a triode/ultralinear switch, the ultralinear position will, roughly speaking, usually double maximum power capability compared to the triode position (i.e., a 3 db increase), while probably also affecting sonics in some manner that depends on the design of the specific amp. If an amp you may consider provides adequate power for your purposes but lacks such a switch I wouldn’t consider the lack of the switch to be significant.
Also, FWIW, the only amps I’ve had which provided such a switch were two classic oldies, Marantz models Two monoblocks (late 1950s) and Nine monoblocks (1960s), which I owned during the 1990s. In both cases I preferred the sonics of triode mode, although the 18 or 20 watt capability of the Two in triode mode was not sufficient to handle some classical symphonic recordings having particularly wide dynamic range, with the 90 db speakers I had at the time.
Re fixing locally vs. shipping to the manufacturer, I suppose factors to consider would be the weight of the amp and (if it is bought used) whether or not original packing materials are available, either from the seller or by ordering them from the manufacturer. But as a general rule of thumb I would say it is preferable to have an amp fixed by the manufacturer.
Another question -- sorry, they keep coming to me -- How important is it for you to have a tube amp fixable locally rather than having to ship it back to the maker for fixes or upgrades?
Hi all, just when you thought this thread was dead... I'm seeing some deals out there, and I'm wondering how important it is for a tube amp to have the "ultra-linear vs. triode" switch? In what circumstances would that be important for listening?
And, you can bring 4 people in the room with 4 different setups and each one can like something completely different. We hear differently too.
Funny, went to a high end audio show a few years ago. In this one room.., a top brass amp manufacturer, paired with a well known speaker manufacturer we all know. Together it sounded absolutely horrible. To each his own. Walked outta there like WTF?
If this thread is any indication, the only solution is to “buy and try” as I always say. I’ve owned 60+ amps, and currently own 12 of them. They all have different strengths and musical preferences. There is no “best.” My suggestion is that you buy the amps that tickle your fancy the most, for whatever reason, and give them a try. There’s a million factors in this, many of which haven’t even been brought up in this thread, so having a bunch of random amps and preamps thrown at you won’t help. Ultimately it takes experimentation to figure out where you are, what you like, what your room likes, and what your speakers like. Let the room choose the speakers, let the speakers choose the amp, let the amp choose the preamp. Good luck and enjoy the ride.
Exactly, and there is at least one 30wpc Class A solid state amp that could potentially displace my current mono tube amps but won’t let myself near it. Well, maybe....ugh :)
I'll never forget the first time I swapped out my beloved 200wpc mosfet solid state amp (in disrepair) for a custom hand made 17-watt loaner tube amp - trying it on my speakers at home. Woah...
At this point, I’ve only compared tubes vs SS two times: #1 Dynaudio evoke 10s (84db, 6 ohm) somewhat underpowered by Atoll solid state separates 60wpc vs Quicksilver integrated, 20 epic. The QS was far superior. #2 Spendor A7 (88db, 8 ohms) quite well supplied by Primaluna EVO 400 integrated vs Parasound separates P6 & A23+. The Parasound was superior. Overall, as I said, the QS was clearly superior to all else, but I want to hear more.
I mention this because it is my actual listening background, and identifies my present limitations for comprehending suggestions and data points mentioned.
Tubes can add some sweet sounding harmonics to recording that need
them. They can also add these harmonics to recordings that do not need
them. It used to be said that James Parker of Audio Research
specifically added 2nd order harmonics to sweeten his design. As a
scientist of sorts, I prefer to add harmonics on an as needed basis.
This sort of blanket statement is problematic! The actual psychoacoustic situation is much more complex. Just as tubes 'add harmonics', so do transistors (although to a lesser extent). The problem is that with the vast majority of transistor amps (greater than 99%, due to insufficient gain bandwidth product, which is a discussion for another thread) the harmonics they add are higher orders which are interpreted by the ear as brightness and harshness.
The ear has a masking principle, and in addition is relatively insensitive to the lower ordered harmonics (2nd-4th). If the lower orders are present in sufficient quantity, they can mask the presence of the higher orders. This is why tubes sound smoother than solid state despite having higher distortion.
On the personal preference side, I enjoy the greater soundstage width and depth, instrument timbres and low level detail that IME that is commonly associated with tube circuits.
Tubes can add some sweet sounding harmonics to recording that need them. They can also add these harmonics to recordings that do not need them. It used to be said that James Parker of Audio Research specifically added 2nd order harmonics to sweeten his design. As a scientist of sorts, I prefer to add harmonics on an as needed basis.
@hilde45 Seems like a worthy step-up on efficiency from the 84db Wow1s to the 90db SS 6Ms, opens up a few more amplification options for sure.
While we bounced all over the place on your post, you got a lot of feedback and options to try. One last note for your upcoming demos.
re: Demo (burn-in) - Be sure to ask if it's brand new or true burned-in demo amp(s) you'll be receiving. You'd effectively be demoing new (un-broken-in) Salk speakers and maybe new 0-hr amps too (correct?). Some speakers and some amps taking hundreds of hours to settle in. Maybe ask the providers.
@hilde45 with the Salk SS 6M you will only need about 1/4 the power to do what you were planning before. 30 to 60 watts should be very nice on this speaker provided you are not too far from them in your room.
That speaker seems to be quite tube friendly- a customer of ours has a set and loves them with our M-60 amplifiers. This speaker allows you a lot more options!
Sure would love to hear the setup if you are running the electrostatic speakers to go along with that truly unique ESL amp you have there. Very cool.
Like some people are with tube amps, the same goes for me with hybrid electrostatic speakers and what they will run them with - very particular. Some of the fastest and most amazing midrange. Been having fun listening to Soundlab speakers and Eminent Technology speakers lately at my local dealer. They use the same QS Mono 120s I use to drive them. The added power increases soundstage and weight of the presentation for sure.
Proper Matching: And it brings up a great point for hilde45 again. Matching the speakers to the proper type/power of amplification sure helps, a lot.
A local friend just completely restored some 1957 Quad ESL speakers, trying different amplifiers with them and hearing varying differences. Can’t wait to hear them and the great midrange they produce. :)
Thanks, Markus for the added suggestions, including Coda. The challenge for me (just a newbie) would be figuring out in the abstract not just whether the preamp/amp would work, but would they work well together and with my speakers. That implies more research, but having these names halves it for me!
I'm taking notes on everything, and am quite happy to see the conversation go wherever. In fact, that's probably the biggest fun for me — to see where folks take this question.
I love this suggestion about 4500 wpc for a bookshelf. It reminds me of that Darwin award about the guy who supposed strapped a JATO jet engine to his car and then disintegrated himself into the side of a rock-face, Roadrunner style.
"I'm using an Innersound Electrostatic amp. It is a circa ~`1999 - 2001 or so amp that I have seen for $2000 and less."
------------------------------------------------ This one? :) If so, some serious grunt for electrostatic loudspeakers. Potential to likely grenade the small-driver Salk speakers hilde45 is looking at.
Quote, re: InnerSound Electrostatic Amplifier ("ESL amp") "massive output stage. Each output transistor is capable of delivering 250 watts -- and there are eighteen of these per channel. As a result, it can deliver a staggering 135 amps of current with a combined power rating of 4,500 watts per channel!".
The trade-in Coda TS in Sac at the factory listed on fleabay has been stuck at $3,700 for a long time, past year. Another "under the radar" Co in the US, but known around the world. Do you know of any other Coda amps for sale for less - if so private message hilde45 and me too :) I live and work 10 min from Coda. Can go check it out for ya if you like :)
Pass Labs, QuickSilver, Coda, all within 10-45 minutes from me. I test different amps with my custom speakers.
I hope you feel you're still getting value out of this thread. Kinda seems to me that what started out as a pretty straightforward quest - to pick up a wonderful tube preamp - has evolved into a somewhat wide open discussion of many wonderful options in which virtually everything is on the table. Except for (maybe) your chosen Salk WOW1 speakers. But I think I read that you are content with those.
Let me share a couple of thoughts on power amps. First, you don't have to stay with the big (and therefore $$$$) names. I'm sure they are nice amps and sound good. But there are wonderful options out there from lesser known builders, especially on the used market. Note that I've not shopped around for any specific amplifiers, but I'm simply trying to broaden your list of possible candidates that should be available without breaking the bank.
Coda would be on my short list. Complete beasts, capable of powering virtually any speaker into harmonious submission and tranquility while provide superb, performance-transparent-insight into whatever recordings you throw at them. Brought to you by the guys who founded Threshold. Sanders Magtech or Innersound Electrostatic. These amps can take an inefficient speaker and make it sit up and play wonderfully. And they are bulletproof.
One of these amps would allow you to comfortably stay with your less-efficient speakers and return to shopping for a killer tube preamp. And this thread is replete with many well regarded candidates. Don Sachs, Supratech, DeHavilland, Atma-sphere, Quicksilver. These would be on my short list, though there are probably other options out there.
Thanks for the extra info decooney. brotw -- i'll look into tekton, possibly. I'm going to try to really love those salks and match them with the right amp; I'll have about 30 days to get them in front of as much amplification as possible. will probably need to burn them in a bit first.
LM508ia offers triode sweetness and bass control. Not a pure Line Magnetic fan boy and can think of other more expensive options that might sound better. I'd like to move up to a 6SN7 line stage with KT88 amp from Don Sachs or Aric some day.
Also with a 7.5' ceiling, peaks and nulls will be at ear level. Thinking Moab from Tekton could smooth that out from the excitation side, woofers are top and bottome in the cabinet, or try and absorb with GIK panels. I do like Salk speakers, just not as tube friendly.
@tvad, ...One of the benefits of tube amplification is the differences in sound possibilities. ..
+1 Yes. Very true, tube amps offering switchable triode / ultralinear is fun. And, flavoring sound using different sounding input/driver tubes (various). In addition some of the better designs permit varied use of different EL34, 6L6*, 6550, KT77, KT88, KT90, KT120s, and some recent designs permitting use of KT150s. Thirdly, changing coupling caps offers other flavors of sound. Very tunable to taste once learning some of the signatures from different tubes. Best to have friends with similar tube amps to loan/compare tubes. Super tunable to taste - great flexibility.
With solid state pre/amplification, pretty much locked in (take it as-is) excluding maybe playing around with different interconnects in an attempt to passive EQ the sound -OR- this is when the speaker-change rollercoaster ensues. It’s also a benefit with SS, fewer options keeps one away from the very tempting tube rolling rollercoaster with tube amps.
Thanks for the Ear suggestion! @markthenaimnut 450 sq feet. Retangular basement room; brick walls 3 ways around an bookshelves along a long wall. Small hallway leading off but can be curtained. About 15 x 30 460 sq ft. 7.5 ft ceilings. Not sure how to set up in it with new gear, but likely along long wall utilizing bookshelves and listening across the width of the room.
There is an EAR-Yoshino 868L listed on Audiogon right now, under $3k. Over-looked by audiophiles for no good reason. Designed by Tim deParavicini (not a committee), amongst the handful of best engineers in the business.
Can't remember, but did you mention the size and dimensions of your listening space? If not could you post them here? if you did, could you repost them here?
@tvad The speaker change was meant to open up options at commensurate or greater quality. I wasn’t trying to lower quality on the amp front! E.g., locally, I have choices between lower and higher powered QS, Rogue, Octave, Black Ice/Jolida, and more to audition. On the used or internet market, the options also now multiply. Many times, folks have posted amps which seemed great but made me wonder if my speakers would have enough power; other times, folks posted amps with enough power but with a price tag greater than pretty much my whole system budget. I was attempting to address those issues with the speaker change.
Glad to see you mention Tekton. The Double Impact thread caught my attention 2 years ago and fortunately I was ready for new speakers and amplification given a bad class D experience. Quickly learned that sensitive speakers were the way to go for tubes and purchased the Direct order Tekton DI's unheard. Terry London is spot on in his reviews.
+1 with Waltersalas on the 48W SET integrated
LM508ia, used ~ $3k
Nice thing is you can add a preamp and use the LM508 as a stand alone amp in the future via line in to squeeze the last bits of transparency and soundstaging. On that note, room treatments and dsp should be factored if your a room correction believer.
@peterf6...Switching tubes makes for fun fine-tuning, and if you find the tubes coloring something, you can switch to passive preamp mode to see (where you’ll usually find the tubes are not coloring!)..
Hey peterf6, did your Schiit Freya come with new re-issue Tung Sol 6SN7s, and have you tried other tubes in your unit by chance?
Just for grins I’ve wanted to test a Freya with a variety of vintage and boutique 6SN7 tubes I was re-testing again last year in my own preamp. I’ve found a notable difference between various vintage and custom boutique tubes in my current preamp. Long term 6SN7 fan, regardless of rarity - so I just hoard them. :) Would be interesting to see how far a Freya sound could be changed or improved, or not at all.
I have only one Schiit comparison: I went from using a Marantz 7C vintage tube preamp to the Freya (original model) and am very happy with the Schiit and think it's great (the Marantz was beautiful and the Freya is comparable). Switching tubes makes for fun fine-tuning, and if you find the tubes coloring something, you can switch to passive preamp mode to see (where you'll usually find the tubes are not coloring!). The newest Schiit addresses the issue of not needing to have the tubes on when in passive mode. The Freya also has balanced input and outputs as well as RCAs. Good luck!
@decooney I hear you on not under-powering the speakers. Jim didn't say "minimum" of 30 wpc, he thought 30 wpc was comfortable. That said, there's not reason not to do at least 40 or perhaps 60. Above that, I may be doing more future-proofing than necessary, and the whole reason to buy speakers more than double the price -- and remember, they'll be on trial basis -- was to cut the amp costs. If I don't do that, well...
Jim knows, and see if you can get him to guide you to an amp. That 30pwc amp will likely be costly due to its quality, not wattage. A really good 30wpc tube amp or really good 25wpc solid state Pass Labs will trounce many others with the same power output.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
