My primary concern is keeping the stereo and HT setups separate even though there is only a single pair front LR speakers. For stereo I want the link to be Ayre DX-5 DSD and QX-5 sources going to KX-5 preamp and VX-5 amp, with a Marchand passive high-pass filter between the preamp and amp. An output from the KX-5 would go to a Velodyne SMS-1, and the output from the SMS-1 to the HGS-10s would be equalized not LFE.
For HT, the DX-5 sends audio via HDMI to the Bryston SP3 that delivers LFE to the other SMS-1 and use its LFE output to the HGS-15s. My understanding is that the spectrum of LFE is modified to produce more spectacular sound effects for HT.
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My inclination is to separate the subs, but I was looking for arguments against that inclination.
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The SP3 distributes the front LR of HDMI audio to a balanced by-pass input of the KX-5/20 preamp that's connected to an SMS-1 as well as to the VX-5/20 amp. If the subs are to be used only for front LR, then the SMS-1s can be daisy chained in a master/slave arrangement so all four are used for music and HT, and acoustic room correction is applied to bass from the four in unison. Of course, bass associated with surround channels is likely to be ignored by the LS50s. And so it goes.
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It may be my imagination, but the bass seems better integrated with the speakers since I changed to the equalized input and output of the SMS-1 from the LFE input and output. The bass hump seems to be gone.
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It’s been a long time since I read the Bryston SP3 manual, except for snippets. I should follow Tim’s advice. I had forgotten that HDMI from the disc player goes to the the SP3 for audio distribution, so the SP3 will control what’s passed on to the balanced inputs of the Ayre preamp for HT.
So fellow tweekers, I have a handsome high-gloss piano-black KEF Ref 204/2C sitting in my hall that I removed because the LR speakers image so well it seemed redundant. It’s about 3.5’ long and weighs nearly 100 pounds, with a Uni-Q surrounded by four 5.5" cones. Should I reinstall that and use the NAD M22 to drive it? That would entail moving the long low equipment rack from the front to the side of the room. I’ve never tried it with the Ref 1, but I suspect being so similar it might blend even better with the Ref 1s than it did with the Ref 107.2s, and that was pretty seamless. I think the 204/2C was designed for the Ref 207.2s that also had a Uni-Q. Advice sought.
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I'm rethinking the sub woofer setup. I plan to use the Bryston SP3 to manage the subwoofers, the Velodyne SMS-1 to provide acoustic room correction. An output from the Ayre KX-5/20 preamp will go to the SP3; managed output from the SP3 will go to the SMS-1.
I don't know if Roon does surround, but the setup will be there if it does.
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Tim,
Of course I don't know what I'm doing. I'm vacillating with the idea of using daisy-chained Velodyne SMS-1s for both bass management and acoustic room correction.
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I've grown suspicious of inserting anything between the Ayre preamp and amp. Even the Marchand fully balanced passive high-pass reduced the sense of openness and air that was quite noticeable. I removed it. That the Bryston SP3 provides 2nd order high-pass filtering made me realize I'd be inserting it between the preamp and amp, so I'll use the Velodyne SMS-1 for both bass management and acoustic room correction.
Surround is via HDMI, so the SP3 will pass front LR to a by-pass input of the Ayre preamp. |
Tim,
The HGS-10 is ready for pickup, but I'm waiting for the HGS-15 that I hope may be available next week. Using the setup I described above works well, and an input of the KX-5/20 preamp can be set to by-pass so the SP3 controls level for surround.
I'm always amazed by how the addition of subs enhances depth of soundstage. I look forward using four subs. I dreaming about a way to use the big Ref 204/2C other than as a center speaker.
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I had previously done the quick setup of the Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager, so never really studied the manual. I discovered I should have been feeding the equalized output back to the preamp, a connection I had been failing to make. The aim is to set a comfortable spectrum level for the speakers using the video display then match it with the subs, a step I had been leaving out during my decade or more of use!
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Tim,
I haven't gotten a notice that the HGS-15 is ready for pickup. I plan to feed the equalized output from the SMS-1 to the preamp today or tomorrow. I've designated an input for that procedure.
I'll likely sell either the 205 or 105D or both, but I've yet to send the DX-5 DSD to Ayre. The 205 presumably has the superior DAC process and does 4K; the 105D has a link to Netflix and is silver. The 105D is boxed and ready to ship.
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Tim,
I think I ran the SMS-1 setup correctly, setting the overall spectrum level from the speakers to about 80 dB, then matching it closely with the subs. The combined spectrum from 20-200 Hz seems pretty flat except for a hump around 60 Hz, and bit of rolloff at 15 Hz. The HGS-15 is in a corner; the HGS-10 behind the left KEF Ref 1, a less than ideal arrangement. When the other subs are returned, I plan to increase the separation of the Ref 1s about a foot and place an HGS-15 behind each. I'll try various placements for the HGS-10s.
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Thanks for the information and suggestions, m-db. The repaired subs should be installed Tuesday. Using the equalized output from the SMS-1 during the setup process revealed the in-room acoustic response of the KEF Ref 1s in the 15-200 Hz region before I unmuted the subs, an unexpected benefit. I'll try to dig more deeply into the SMS-1.
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I used George Meyer on Jefferson Blvd in the Baldwin Hills area of LA. The cost seems reasonable. |
The four subs, 2 Velodyne HGS-10s and 2 HGS-15s, are installed and the SMS-1s daisy-chained, although I'll need some help in relocating each HGS-15s from a corner to behind the Ref 1s. I did an initial set up of the SMS-1s, but it will need to be redone when the subs are moved into place. I need to read the manual carefully, because there are subtle parametric adjustments I do not yet fully understand. One notable change with the additional subs is the elimination of the mild roll-off from 20 and 15 Hz. A first listen suggests the four sub array might sound superb.
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For the two HGS-15s I think I'll start with Velodyne recommendation to place each next to a front LR speaker. Each HGS-15 weighs 95 pounds, and I use Auralex SubDudes under them so sliding on the carpet is not easy. I can lift the HGS-10s. Right now, the big subs are in the corners and the small ones are next to the speakers.
In rereading the SMS-1 manual I realized I missed a step in daisy-chaining the units: The slave unit should be set up independently first, then daisy-chained to the master unit and a full equalization performed of the combined acoustic output of the four subs. I had not set up the slave unit. Eventually I'll get it right.
I discovered the lack of slam I thought might be endemic to smaller speakers like the KEF Ref 1 is an artifact of some problem between the Bryston SP3 and Ayre KX-5/20 when playing Blu-rays. Large orchestrations sent by Roon to the QX-5/20 digital hub have satisfying slam, but I've been using Roon for chamber and jazz music. I'll explore the Blu-ray link when I install a Sanus rack next week that will make access to the rear of the components much easier.
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The Velodyne HGS-15s are now behind the KEF Ref 1s, an HGS-10 aside each Ref 1. The HGS-10s are connected to one of the SMS-1s, the HGS-15s to the other. With the SMS-1s daisy-chained I can turn one off if I want only the HGS 10s or HGS-15s. I've been listening with just the HGS-10s active and I like it for music. Makes me wonder about replacing the HGS-15s with another pair of HGS-10s.
The Sanus rack makes equipment very accessible and is a joy to use. Should have done that years ago.
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Tim,
I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of acoustic perfection for visual appeal. And acoustic room correction can help with the residual problems. I strive for good organ pedal response without bass boom from jazz recordings. A setup with a HGS-10 aside each KEF Ref 1 results in satisfying full range sound free of obvious sub involvement with the HGS-15s turned off. An HGS-10 on either side of the Ref 1s, i.e., four of HGS-10s, might sound even better while remaining visually appealing. The HGS-15s provide the slam for movie special effects, and may ultimately fit in for music.
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Tim,
As luck would have it, the Velodyne HGS-15 and HGS-10 that were not recently repaired have now developed problems. So I'm using a single HGS-15 with 4th order crossover at 40 Hz. I think the sound is quite good: bass in jazz is free of boom while organ pedal notes are well portrayed. I'll try adding the repaired HGS-10 later today for a two sub setup, albeit a very asymmetrical one.
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Tim won't like this, but my current plan is a stereo setup comprised of Ayre Series 5X Twenty components and KEF Ref 1s, and a surround/HT setup comprised of an Oppo 205, NAD M22, and a pair if NAD 268s with six LS50s. Current thinking is to use the Velodyne HGS-15s for stereo, the HGS-10s for surround, but that could be reversed. An Audible Illusions Modulus 3 might be used with the Thorens TD 124 in the stereo setup, making Roon, discs, and vinyl sources for stereo. HDMI from the disc players would be for video only.
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OP here. As noted in my 11/2 post I've settled on separate stereo and HT setups, each with a pair of subs. Both setups reside in a single rack, but do not share any cabling.
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Tim,
I've never had four working subs in one room. Previously the HGS-10s were downstairs, the HGS-15s upstairs. Since moving them all upstairs, two at any given time have needed repair. Another dreaded trip to LA is required to have four functional subs in any configuration. Notice I wrote "current plan" and my thinking is in a state of flux, but the elegance of separate stereo and HT setups is appealing to me.
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Tim,
I think we are expected for Thanksgiving at out cousins in the Hollywood Hills. We may make a two day trip of it and drop off the subs in LA the day before. When we have four working subs, I'll try them with the stereo setup.
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Tim,
I’m using my 205 in the living room with an Audio Engine until i get the Marantz Model 18 serviced. An Ayre A7e & Codex for Roon also reside in that room.
The Velodyne HGS-15 that was not serviced seems has developed a barely audible low frequency hum and the HGS-10 an occasional chugging. But 4th order low-passing the KEF Reference 1s at 40 Hz to the two remaining subs sounds very good to me.
For HT I’m using a Bryston SP3 to NAD 22 and 238s with six LS50s.
I’ve been occupied with a tube-analog setup using a Thorens TD 124 with SME III arm and Ortofon 30H cartridge as source through an Audible Illusions Modulus 3 to Cary CD 572 SE monoblocks. The speakers will be the Reference 1s or stacked Reference 102.2s wired in series. The Ref 1s would have to be switched between the Ayre amp and the Carys, but the 102.2s could be dedicated if I can find room for them.
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