SELLERS encouraged to stop accepting Paypal!!


If you are selling anything on the internet from any site I encourage you to NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL AS A PAYMENT METHOD!

IT APPEARS THAT PAYPAL IS SO BACKED UP AND OVERWHELMED WITH DISPUTES AND CASES THAT THEY ARE NOT DECIDING THEM BASED ON MERIT, THEY ARE DECIDING THEM BASED ON NUMBERS. THEY PROBABLY KNOW THAT 85% - 90% OF BUYERS CLAIMS ARE LEGITIMATE SO THEY DISPOSITION THEM IN FAVOR OF THE BUYER JUST TO REMOVE THE CASEFILE FROM THEIR PIPELINE. THAT WAY THEY ARE ONLY PISSING OFF 10% TO 15% OF THEIR CUSTOMERS WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE IN ORDER TO MOVE THROUGH ALL THE CASES IN A TIMELY MANNER. THIS IS ONLY MY OBSERVATION AND OPINION, BUT IF YOU READ THE FACTS OF MY SITUATION BELOW YOU'LL AGREE!

Here are the facts of my case:
I listed an item (speaker cables)on Ebay that was described 100% accurately. Here is the content of my ad:
Here is the content of my ad:
"I have a 10-foot pair of essentially UNTERMINATED AudioQuest Audiotruth Midnight 3 Hyperlitz speaker cables. They spent their lives running from Yamaha M-1 monoblocks into B&W Matrix 801 Series 3's. They include a combination of spades and bananas BUT THE SPADES ARE BENT OR BROKEN AND THE BANANAS HAVE NOT BEEN PROPERLY TERMINATED. I have been using them by just tightening the bananas on the ends...seems to work fine BUT IF I WERE TO KEEP THEM I WOULD DEFINITELY TERMINATE THEM PROPERLY. In addition to the unterminated ends the writing on the cables is faded in places. Probably a decent cleaning would make them look great again."

Please note, the capitalized words are to highlight them for this post, they were not capitalized in the ad but this was my description.
Now, anybody reading this would know for absolute certain that 1) these are essentially unterminated, 2) the spades are bent and broken, 3) the bananas are not terminated, and 4) the seller is advising the buyer to terminate the properly because that is what he would do if he kept them.

So this Ebay buyer "buythemall2016" bid on this item several times to beat out 6 others to win the auction. I sent a congratulatory email with instructions for speedy delivery. I received back an email telling me to cancel his bid he does not want the item.
I contacted Ebay to let them know he was a non-payer on an auction he won. They obviously contacted him and told him he would get a "non-payer" status that would hut him on Ebay in the future. He paid me for the item and sent me an email saying simply "please ship fast". I knew he could be trouble.
I shipped immediately, he received the package and contacted me saying "the banana plugs are falling off and the spade plugs are bent and broken. Please advise."
Hmmm. I advised him how to use them the way I had been using them but suggested he terminate them properly per my description in the ad.

Not satisfied he called me a scammer and complained to Ebay asking for a refund. He also hit me with a negative feedback. I contacted Ebay who used common sense and good judgment to reverse the negative feedback and deny the buyers claim that the item he received was not as described. They decided in my favor.

A couple of days later I get a notice from PayPal that the buyer asked for a refund and permission to return the item since what he got was not as described in the ad. I was pissed that this guy was still trying to lie and dishonor his agreement to buy my item by being the winning bidder. I sent in all the same information to PayPal sure they would also find the item indeed was described 100% properly in the ad and they would rule in my favor. I wasn't even concerned at all.

About a week later I get an email that the buyer was given permission to return the item for a full refund.

I was enraged! I called PayPal, waited on hold for about an hour to talk to a manager who agreed with me and told me he was sending it to the "back office" to be reviewed further and reversed. He even released the hold on the funds since he was so certain it would be reversed and decided in my favor.

After not hearing anything for a couple of days I called back and waited on hold for 2 HOURS AND 28 MINUTES to talk to a manager before I heard someone pick up the line AND HANG UP ON ME!!

Now I cannot get anybody to call me back to discuss further. They are avoiding me entirely, and calling them is not an option since the shortest hold time is an hour!

Today I got the email saying they cannot change their decision and removed the money from my account and gave it back to the dishonorable "buyer". So I am out shipping both ways and the Ebay fee which I probably will never get back.

SO I ENCOURAGE ALL SELLERS WHO ARE ABOVE BOARD, HONEST AND LIST ITEMS WITH INTEGRITY TO STOP ACCEPTING PAYPAL AS A PAYMENT OPTION. YOU MAY SUFFER THE SAME SCENARIO I DID!

A6dacd9a 9c85 43a3 b268 09df0d0eb2d2Ag insider logo xs@2xkevinagurney
So, what type of payment can be accepted? 
If its a check or money order most buyers do not want to wait to complete the transaction. Plus there is no protection for them.

I hear your message, but to me, your case is rare and you did get the cables back. 
A negative feedback on the Buyer is all you can use.

ozzy
Cannot leave a negative feedback on him.  Don't know why.  I've tried several times.

I just sold a pair of Revel Studios and requested a bank transfer.  Worked this time.

I understand what you are saying though, about the buyer protection.  But where is my protection from idiots like this?

The problem is that PayPal is so overwhelmed with cases to decide that they are just processing them with no thought or concern...just move 'em through.  I'm researching other methods of payment to accept now.  Hopefully somebody knows of other services to use that they can share with us.

I know Paypal dominates the category now, but they are ripe for a competitor to come along and erase them if they don't concern themselves with outcomes like mine.

I have done 115 transactions here and every one of them was with PayPal.  I never had a problem and will continue to use them.

I am having a problem with an importer I purchased from in Japan.  He sold me an Acrolink cable for 270.00 which was supposed to be delivered between Jan 2-9 and I am still waiting.  It was sent via Japan Post and according to the tracking#, is still in Japan waiting for export.  I have emailed the guy twice and I am getting the run around, things like it is delated due to Customs and then today he said it is delayed due to bad weather in the USA.  I am giving him until next Wednesday, if I don't receive I will contact PayPal for a refund.


I tried going through The Cable Company, but after calling 5 times and waiting for a price, I gave up.

OP, I feel your pain. Like Ozzy, I haven't had, thankfully, any bad experiences. I am surprised that Ebay sided with you and Ppal did not, since both are practically joined at the hip.
I would contact Ebay again and see if they can intervene. I have found Ebay to be quite responsive to reasonable requests.
Bob


As a seller it is best to make everything black and white. It's the gray area that idiots or someone with buyer's remorse will focus on to back out. In your ad, my first line would have been, 'Sold as is for parts or repair'. Then write the description and keep it real simple with basic facts. Too much information can lead to a buyer making assumptions.

Also on eBay, you can select for no returns.

I would have re-terminated the ends with new before putting on eBay. Also would have cancelled the sale, per his request and relisted, end of problem. You really can't make someone buy anything. If they don't want it they don't want it, the reason is irrelevant. It's just a business transaction, do not make it too personal.

dill,

The point you make isn't the point. The OP is frustrated because paypal was negligent and screwed him. I had a similar experience. I have to grin when I read posts from some members above saying how they never had a negative experience, and will continue to use paypal. That's good, I hope that they never do, but many have, and it's real. They are an uncaring and unethical company.

As in all cases we read about on forums, we only hear one side. In a business transaction, there is never one side. He didn't want the item right after he won it and did not want to complete the transaction, however the OP insisted. IMO the business transaction ended there. If the OP would have cancelled the transaction he would not have pissed off the buyer, hence we wouldn't be having this conversation. Granted PayPal and eBay are in it for the money and may be deserving of criticism, however many times if the participants (buyer & seller) settle the problem themselves, there is no need to involve PP & eBay. 
Good points all!
dill  -  I simply issued a "no pay" report to Ebay so they would include this in the buyers history. When he actually paid I knew ebay put some pressure on him.  You are right.  I thought to decline his payment at that point but after reaching out to the 2nd and 3rd top bidders each of them had purchased something else.  My bad

roxy54  -  Right on!

dill  -  I agree. The 1st thing I thought of when this escalated is that I should just re-terminate them myself  and sell them as good condition.

tls49  -  You also are correct.  "For parts or repair'.  thought my description would have been enough.  Then again I'm used to the more savvy buyer on more respected auction/sale sites.  Learning curve on dealing with unsophisticated product flippers in kicking in big time!

gdnrbob  -  I have been a member of PayPal since 2005 with hundreds of transactions without incident.  Now that I'm utilizing Ebay more for their huge customer base I'm opening myself up to the unknown.  I too was surprised that PayPal contradicted Ebay.  Thought my case was a slam dunk.  And I was further shocked to learn that sellers CANNOT LEAVE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FOR BUYERS!  Still don't understand that but I'm waiting for an answer from Ebay about it.

You all make excellent points and I thank you for allowing me to vent.  I'll chalk this up to my cost of tuition!!
Thanks for the input.
Good Point.This is why I now use Audiogon  Express checkout, and my story.

Last year a guy paid me wanting UPS to pack and 3 day shipping . It arrives 
And UPS made 3 attempts, then sent back to me.  PayPal st first said I was right ,the buyer unprofessional .3 say a later they gave all his money's back .I lost over 
$400. Another time while overseas their customer service on week end could not even understand English well. A 4% exchange as well as 3%  fees  they gave wrong international exchange 3x .over $1,000 on a $$ item.  They said Monday it will 
Be straightened out, Wrong they said it was in a program they could do nothing.
Since they were the only game in town Big A-holes. Like Facebook.
No more,and never again  !!
I don't, sure it excludes a lot of buyers..... I just sold a pair of speakers on Craigslist.   Super smooth, easy transaction....cash , which is what I prefer.  Local sale, which is also what I prefer... Had them listed on a few audio sites and little action. They were fairly priced and sold in two weeks....best part is they went to a good home, a young guy putting together his first decent system.   
The reason I stopped using PayPal is because they held $2500 hostage even after I and the buyer showed proof of delivery and positive feedback.... they would not verify and link my account because my wife had a PP account on that bank....  would only let me take it out $500 each month.... giant pain in the ass.... the work around was to just send it as a gift to my wife..... it was a gift all right.... do you think I ever saw that money again???  I have never used them since.
Kevinagurney,
I feel for you.  I too had an issue with PayPal that ultimately was ruled in my favor.  I had proof that what the seller was saying was false.  He admitted it in an eBay e-mail (eBay owned PayPal at that time).  PayPal wouldn't look at the e-mail even though it was sent via eBay.  eBay finally intervened on my behalf.  I like the way you acknowledged the suggestions and even criticisms of other members.  Lessons learned, and I'm including myself in that after reading your experience.
I hear you and that’s unfortunate.. but honestly I think it’s completely lame you forced the purchase on someone who clearly didn’t want it. Where’s the integrity in that? Yes - shame on him for not reading the listing properly, and he got excited.. but when he requested cancel you should have. That’s the high road and right thing. You are here on your own accord.
I just had an incident in which a buyer purchased a MO FI cd and 5 days after he received it he wanted to return it due to scratches. 1- I have a no refunds on Ebay, 2- the cd was in perfect shape,3-I have 100% positive feedback and 4-almost a month later I received it back from the buyer.( I mailed it back)    Ebay /paypal looked into it and choose in my favor!   so they did some research into my issue.

ozzy-


there is indeed protection from personal check/cashier check and Postal Service money order.  It is a crime to write, pass, a bad check. All checks are traced per their originating financial institution(s). The money order is registered and tracked per the Post Office. I have been using these methods of payments for many, many years.

Happy Listening!

Post removed 
"essentially" was your mistake. 
Nothing is "essentially" unterminated, it either is terminated or it's not. 
Terminate them properly or remove the terminations altogether. 
A buyer of my Ayer preamp got a refund after a year passed and said it never arrived.  I thought I was lucky enough to have confirmation that  of delivery by USPS, but PayPal paid him back after investigating??  I think he used a credit card and somehow was able to make a complaint. Nothing came out of my account, but I not happy he tried to say I never sent the item and got the pre amp and his money back. Still scratching my head??
Well, it’s not true that Paypal always sides with the buyer. I’m a buyer who is in a dispute with a seller, for whom the dispute has yet to turn out well. It’s been going on for 10 months now.

The seller used the words “works perfectly” in four places in his ad for a subwoofer, the ad was maybe 1000 words long, maybe longer, and buried towards the bottom in very small print is language to the effect - not explicitly, just to the effect - that a part was missing. I didn’t even see it until I was well into the dispute.

Without the part, there is no way, according to an engineer at the manufacturer, that you can state that the item “works perfectly”, all you can say is that when you plug it in, the amp lights up and the woofer diaphragm responds. The missing part is not off the shelf, and as it is no longer made, it needs to be fabricated from scratch.

My engineer says he could make it for $175 so I offered to accept it if the seller gave $175 back. The seller refused.

amazingly, both eBay and Paypal sided with the seller. Amazingly, eBay said that if I don’t like the sub, I can resell it on Ebay! The only ethical way to do that is to list the parts separately, sold as “for parts only” at a loss of $200 or more.

Fortunately I used Paypal Credit. So, I have yet to pay. I have told Paypal alternatively that I will either:

A - jump into a boiling vat of hydrochloric acid, or
B - walk barefoot across Siberia in the middle of the winter

before they see one penny from me for this purchase.

As the seller is rudely intransigent, and as Paypal has paid the seller, I my return the item to the CEO of Paypal as he is now the “owner”.

I since bought the same model sub at the same price. I saw it on Ebay first, but it was listed in another forum so he suggested to buy it there to avoid Ebay fees, I paid cash when I picked it up and there have been no issues.
jafant,

Have you ever tried to collect from a bad check?  
Or what happens if you send a check or money order and the product never arrives. Good luck collecting.
No, for all the bad experiences that are listed about Paypal it is still the easiest way to complete a small purchase on Audiogon.

ozzy
mitch4t,
I agree with you....had I not gone on to explain and describe exactly what I meant by "essentially".  I mean they were terminated, and they certainly worked fine, just looked ugly.  Any confusion by a potential bidder would warrant a question?  No?  
I have purchased many items that upon first reading the description left me wondering and unsure about the item.  A quick email to the seller cleared it up immediately.
I now understand why people use the terminology "For Parts or Repair" even if the item works but needs attention.  Lesson Learned.

tsbarro.  Actually "lame" is incorrect.  It's lame for people to refuse to honor their commitment.  It's lame for people to abuse the system and cause other people inconvenience or loss.  It's lame when honest people get steamrolled by dishonest, deceitful people without integrity or good conscience.  I don't see any honor in this buyers behavior at all.  And by granting him a pass by calling me lame is misguided at best.
I do admit, my initial inclination when he paid me was to cancel the order entirely.   That was absolutely my bad.  Doing that would not have been "the high road", rather the road to cover my ass against a jerk.
You see, my intention was to simply have Ebay properly disposition him as a "non-payer".  I was already contacting the 2nd and 3rd bidders to see if they still wanted the item at their highest bid.  Since he deserved the label as a non-payer I only felt it fair that he wear that badge proudly as he bid in the future so other sellers would have the option to refuse his bid.  The fact that Ebay does not allow me to leave negative feedback regarding his behavior means everybody in the future is subject to his lack of character.  That does not seem right to me at all.
Kevinagurney,

If the buyer asked to cancel within 12 hours - maybe even within 24 hours - of the sale, I would have granted his request, no questions asked, and moved on. He was signaling to you that he would be a problem buyer.

And the term “for parts or repair” is at the core of my dispute with the seller I’m having a problem with. The seller should have listed his subwoofer that way.