seriously are we still thrashing this around? just get some good speakers and a sweet little amp, it dosen't have to say " Reference " after the model, we will still be on board.
Search for miracle integrated
Hello All,
I'm on a search for a very specific type of integrated. I am upgrading my system from the top of the stream down. I go all digital / Lossless quality or higher so the logical start was with the DAC. I just received my Yggdrasil which I absolutely LOVE and feel that I got a much better value than I was expecting (even with all the praise online it met and exceeded my expectations).
My quest continues with the integrated. I am looking for a company that spends very little on marketing and works to move as much of the value for the money to the product itself. Very high value is important to me, I want to get value above the price and I don't want to pay for anything I don't need (such as a built-in DAC as I already have one). The more musical and the higher the clarity the better. My short list is pretty short- the SimAudio Moon 600i and Ayre's integrated. Some other factors are below. I typically buy new but I'm open to a good value in a used product as well.
Budget (only for the integrated): $8K+/-
Music preference: classical, light rock, pop
End speakers: It is between Accoustic Zen Crescendo / Vandy Quatros / Wilson Sophias / Revel Salon Ultimas
Power: 150 WPC+ into 8 ohm
I'm on a search for a very specific type of integrated. I am upgrading my system from the top of the stream down. I go all digital / Lossless quality or higher so the logical start was with the DAC. I just received my Yggdrasil which I absolutely LOVE and feel that I got a much better value than I was expecting (even with all the praise online it met and exceeded my expectations).
My quest continues with the integrated. I am looking for a company that spends very little on marketing and works to move as much of the value for the money to the product itself. Very high value is important to me, I want to get value above the price and I don't want to pay for anything I don't need (such as a built-in DAC as I already have one). The more musical and the higher the clarity the better. My short list is pretty short- the SimAudio Moon 600i and Ayre's integrated. Some other factors are below. I typically buy new but I'm open to a good value in a used product as well.
Budget (only for the integrated): $8K+/-
Music preference: classical, light rock, pop
End speakers: It is between Accoustic Zen Crescendo / Vandy Quatros / Wilson Sophias / Revel Salon Ultimas
Power: 150 WPC+ into 8 ohm
125 responses Add your response
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It is interesting to see so many well-intended recommendations that seemingly ignore your list of requirements. There are lots of amps that will meet your stated needs - mostly solid state. IMO the finest sounding SS integrated amplifier I have heard is the GamuT Di150. These are occasionally available used for well within your budget. The newer Di150 Limited Edition is quite a big upgrade in terms of sound but it is probably out of your budget, unless a miracle occurs and you can find a used one. |
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jafant4,622 posts11-19-2016 9:58pmEverything (gear) has its proper place. I like Bryston power amps, I would never buy their loudspeakers. I would not wish VAC , VTL or LAMM to build a cdp either....that's good, that means the wait time to deliver a Vitus or Soulution cdp is less for us audiophiles who appreciate them. |
inna2,873 posts11-19-2016 5:14pmhttp://www.ypsilonelectronics.com/product/14/cdt-100-cd-transport.htmlFirstly, that is a cd transport, not a cd player. Therefore my reply was 100% correct. Secondly, you can conclude whatever you like about the decline of cd sales, and Lamm or Vac’s position on designing a cd player. For Lamm or Vac to design and build a cd player as good as the Vitus SCD-025 Mk2 or Soulution 541/746 within a profitable model would require a significant investment in both engineering, tooling and factory space few high end manufacturers have the capacity or willpower to do. As for the demise of cd’s, the fact is there are billions of cd’s in circulation. And whilst cd’s and cd player sales are in decline, their is still a niche market for desirable high end cd players for audiophiles like me who still enjoy spinning cd’s. Btw, I doubt your player would be in the closet if you owned any of the above-mentioned spinners ;). |
http://www.ypsilonelectronics.com/product/14/cdt-100-cd-transport.html LAMM and VAC have enough stuff to sell, don't need it. Gryphon makes it only because they want to have all Gryphon system and they don't make turntables. Why Ypsilon makes it I have no idea of, maybe they are thinking of making speakers too and have all Ypsilon set-up. CD players are going to be completely obsolete very soon. My player is in the closet unlike turntable and tape deck. It's either analogue or computer. |
inna2,871 posts11-19-2016 3:50pmYou forgot Gryphon and Ypsilon. Also, some Like LAMM or VAC are simply not interested in this.Nope, didn’t forget Gryphon. Ypsilon don’t make a CD player. As for Lamm and VAC, If they tell you they’re not interested in designing a cdp, you’re not hearing the full story. CD players are still selling well, albeit the penny has dropped on companies like Esoteric who are no longer designing new SACD players. |
Good work aardvarkbark, I agree, at that price point having the piece of mind of a local authorized service center is essential. I was adjusting some cables in my system a few months back & accidentally caused an 'arc' which blew the fuses in my Vitus cdp. I was able to swap out the fuses in a few minutes, but to be on the safe side I had the player checked over by the authorized service centre. The player was fine, the contacts just needed cleaning. But that shows the importance of having a local service center. Btw, smart move going for the INT-250. If I didn't already own Vitus gear, I would have seriously consider that amp. The only real downside for synergy is that Pass don't offer a killer cdp like the SCD-025Mk2. |
Actually, I purchased my INT-250 from Mike after confirming with him and directly with Vitus by email that (two months ago) there was no authorized service center in the US and that a unit requiring repair would indeed have to go abroad. They say they are in discussions to establish one, but at this price point, I prefer the comfort of knowing that I can send my PASS to the manufacturer here in this country. Frankly, one hopes these never require service, but the fact is that periodically they do. Plus, I certainly don't regret my decision to get the PASS, so whether or not Vitus ever establishes US service center is now a non-issue for me. |
@aardvarkbark, I'm not 100% sure about that. I would check specifically with either Bob at Rhapsody Audio in NYC or Mike at Suncoast Audio who are both Vitus dealers. I would be *very* surprised if there was no authorized repairer in the US. With that said, Vitus Signature series gear is very well made. I have had no problem with my gear...built like a tank. |
@austinbob -- ditto on the 'match the amp with the speaker' comment. But I wonder how one decides where to start if not auditioning in pairs. I recently upgraded to B&W 80s D2s (when learned no longer produced). Paired with Ayre AX5Twenty integrated due to recommendation by dealer and great reviews. Horrible combination. Bright abrasive highs, no bottom end. Was it the amp or the speakers? Decided to substitute PASS INT-250 and the results are ideal -- detail, warmth, broad and deep imaging. |
I also share my office with my listening room--a sort of man cave built above my garage. Here are my 2 cents after trying different speakers and amps over the last few years. 1) Nail down the speaker you like and listen to it in your room to make sure it's right. I had Harbeth SHL5s and, on a whim, bought some B&W 803Ds. Bad idea. Overwhelmed the room and my current integrated didn't drive them well. I currently have Dynaudio Contour 3.4S with upgraded Esotar 2 tweeters. 2) Match the amp with the speaker. With the Harbeths, I started with Bryston separates (4BSST2 and MP26), then went to an Ayre integrated AX-7E, Luxman 505ux, Hegel H300 and auditioned a friend's Devialet 400. The Bryston separates were great, the Ayre was wimpy, the Hegel okay, the Devialet was great, and I'm keeping the Luxman. 3) Why the Luxman? Bulletproof, excellent sonics, nice features like a loudness button (you'll be listening at low volumes in your home office and it makes a big and pleasant difference). Nice looking and a hefty 60 lbs of Japanese goodness. 4) If this is your work and listening environment, you might consider incorporating a streamer than allows you to install Roon. Roon has an amazing AI interface that will create your own customized listening experience and allow integration with Tidal. Final thoughts--Luxman has an entire range. The 505ux is excellent and drives the Dyaudios really well, but you can also go Class A in their lineup. A bargain choice is also the Hegel H200 which you can find used for about $2000. |
I agree with melbguy1, the accuphase gear is way overpriced outside of Japan. Its a well build and great sounding integrated but having both E-470 and E-600 in my system for while, I don't think its worth paying retail. I demoed Vitus RI-100 and I think its better than accuphase integrated offerings. The Vitus SIA-025 simply above all and this is reflected in price. My opinion, the newly released Pass INT-60 is better sounding than accuphase E-470 . I sold my E-470, after demoing Pass INT-60 in my system. |
All good donjr. I think of Accuphase as like a high end version of nice hifi gear in that it has the features and user-friendliness of hifi, but the sound of high end gear. I’ve thought more than once what kind of system I would build if life turned to s*** and I had to sell my current system, and the Accuphase E-600 has crossed my mind more than once. Though I really think Accuphase should bring out a server with an internet tuner + server transport/dac combo. That said, I prefer Vitus because it sounds more natural and tube-like, and the SCD-025 Mk2 sounds more analogue-like for my tastes. It’s all relative. |
My apologies to melbguy. Accuphase has never advertised much in the U.S. I had an opportunity to purchase a demo E-600 and jumped on it after hearing it a few times. My close friend owns the only high end hi fi shop in the city I live in. He carries Ayre, Luxman, Rega, Audio Research, Octave......too much to list. The Accuphase is the best integrated I've ever heard and I've heard a lot due to this friendship. I got a good deal but it wasn't a better deal than he would have given anyone else who wanted this amp. I wouldn't trade it for any other amp. I stated my opinion and so did you. If I had the money, I would have bought this amp at retail because I've never heard a 16k integrated amp (or in that ball park) that sounds as good. |
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Greg thanks for the heads up on the comparo between WA & the Accuphase. You’re right, a mint 2nd hand US-sale Accuphase E-470 or E-600 could be a very good option. A mint 2nd hand Boulder 865 could also be a good option & easily snapped up in that price bracket if looking for a more neutral sounding amp. |
donjr - I think Melbguy1, was using the comparison of Japanese prices vs US as the sole reason for his statement. The Wells Audio doesn’t even come close to the Accuphase - I have heard the Wells Audio and E-600 and own an E-470. Unfortunately, manufacturers like Accuphase and Luxman have been challenged to enter the US market due to the mark-up imposed by their respective distributors. In fact, I am sure that this could be said for most Japanese brands that are imported into the US. It’s a shame that Accuphase and other brands don’t exhibit or advertise more in the US. Gray market gear has absolutely no value poroposition upon resale so it is really a "pay me now or pay me later" scenario. OP has so many choices at his price point and many more if he wants to consider used gear. The used gear market is extremely depressed and coupled with the OCD nature of many of us, with a desire to constantly upgrade our gear, a mint-condition, like new integrated could be acquired for 40% or 50% of MSRP. |
donjr1,194 posts11-06-2016 1:29pmi’m not, I just don’t believe you’ve heard it with such a bold statement.That’s fair enough. Don’t get me wrong, I think the class A Accuphase E-600 is a very nice integrated. Not in the same league as the Vitus SIA-025 as would be expected given the price disparity, but very good. I’m just saying dollar for dollar I think the Wells Audio integrated is better value for money which was a pre-requisite of the OP, as opposed to Accuphase gear which is way over-priced in the US imho. |
A company that is spending little on marketing but mostly all on product and sound? I currently own a Norma IPA-140 integrated. Not cheap at around 10K retail ( less of course on the used market). Go to the website, read all you can on it, it is a very refined and unbelievable jewel for the money, some say it can hold its place compared to twice the price company. The sound is addictive. I have owned So many integrateds in the past, including some from simaudio /Moon, and that LSA (ex DK amp from China). The norma is in a higher league in my opinion sound-wise and build quality. And of course its a looker, its Italian... I think Singer in NY is a dealer for norma. Cheers! |
I saw that Gryphon, it is supposed to be an excellent amp, but it is 11-17 years old, there are no Gryphon dealers in North America and it is not as good as the following Diablo model not to mention current Diablo 300 model. Judging by reviews and the word of mouth. Besides, I would have to sell things that I don't want to sell to get it. So no, I will wait. As I said, I am sure I would be happy with any of those three. |
Yeah...I think, that VAC is gone. In my dreams I would like to compare that VAC, Ypsilon hybrid integrated and Gryphon solid state integrated. Assuming reasonably efficient speakers and medium size room, I would guess it would be a matter of taste but also it could depend on particular music and volume level, but overall all three should be absolutely top level. Gryphon Diablo 300 is said to be extremely poweful and dynamic, in addition to other things, VAC should win in midrange and Ypsilon might have a unique sound signature and great balance. If I am right in my very schematic assessment, which one would I take? Hmm..I don't know ! |
I am a acoustic zen fan , the cresendos are top notch . I just talked to mr lee today about shortening some cables i have from him ( adagios ,all az cables,nuvista ) I strongly suggest you call him , he almost always answers himself . And i would ask his opinion on power. The mf nuvista will sound great and rip , I personally would be going reference vac intergrated used Ask inna he found a vac phi 110 used for 9k cple weeks back 25k new epic for those crescendos ( a dream amp for me ) . Again call mr lee he will give you great advice and may offer you a deal you can’t refuse. Any az spkr owner usually gets 40% off on cables etc just saying .. cheers there is also a vac sigma 160 for sale here for like $8500 |
donjrOh that’s right, audio is not subjective, so since you are sarcastically implying Accuphase is superior, you must be right, lol! Perhaps you forgot the OP’s request "I am looking for a company that spends very little on marketing and works to move as much of the value for the money to the product itself. Very high value is important to me, I want to get value above the price.."? In the US, Accuphase gear is way over-priced unless you’re talking grey-market 100v examples which don’t come with a warranty. Don’t believe me? Compare retail prices on any Accuphase product in the US with either Audiocubes2 or Price Japan & you'll see the *real* value of Accuphase gear. |
