Say it aint so--- Teres quality question

Joe, Intarsia for the Teres! Hmmm. I recall doing a lot of that at one time including a project for a woman who wanted clusters of grapes, vines, and leaves to spread out over the back stretcher of a rocking chair and then spill down the sides and out onto the arms. A toughy.

What are your plans for your wood table? Just on the base, or maybe musical notes round the platter! :-) One thought is that if you're going to use coco, SHARPEN those tools! :-)

I still have a great affinity for marquetry, though, and can think of any number of inlay patterns that would be absolutely stunning on an all-wood table.

As a former apprentice who graduated from the expert tutelage of my master craftsman grandfather, I have had misgivings with respect to wooden platters.

On the other hand, several Teres users, and the Man himself, posted at some length on this topic on this board not so long ago (suggest a search). Teres believes that it has sufficiently considered and addressed the "woody" issues.

In the end, you have to weigh your decision based on all the information you can find and then act accordingly.

Let me begin by saying that my intent is not to pick at Teres in particular because all companies seem to have quality control issues at one point or another. The more important issue is whether such problems are addressed quickly and effectively.

Too, I have heard now four different Teres tables and they have, without exception, been great sounding tables. Bottom line? Maybe. However, if there are issues with QC or long-term stability (with any product), it is the very ethos of these boards that folks like Patrick should make others aware of them, provided the comments are fair and reasonable. In that sense, I hope his fears of becoming “unpopular” as a result are unfounded.

In addition, I do not really mean to single out Jphii, but I’m sure it will sound that way. It is just that his post echoes what others have said elsewhere in one post and I must respectfully disagree in some cases.

Jphii sez:

"If you have an issue with Teres (the company) woodwooking skills, try this: DO IT YOUR SELF! I am. Then you can find out just how hard it is to do properly."

It is not a matter of hard (as in difficult), as much as a matter of having the right equipment, skill and taking the requisite time needed. It is not as if lathes are not available to or used by woodworkers, it is just that many are not properly setup and/or the user does not have sufficient skill. Anyone selling expensive products based on wood should certainly have the proper equipment and skilled labor to deliver a fine product and be able to meet scheduled demand without rushing and thereby sacrificing the product. Note that I am not saying this has been done in Patrick’s case. I am speaking generally.

"You can get it perfect, if you want, I know I can. But, a very big but, why spend the energy to make it absolutely perfect if it does not have to be? There are parameters that need to be met, but outside of that you just get ridiculous."

That but may be as big as JLo’s to you, but perhaps not others. Depends on your outlook, I suppose. The point of ridiculous in this hobby does get blurred with some frequency, I’ll grant you that!

"I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that?

No, I don't want to spend that, and to do it right should not cost anywhere near $10-12K WITH INLAYS. Oy. You have really got to be kidding on this one. But, yes, the proper pressing equipment in the laminating process and GRAIN MATCHING AND SELECTION TO ACHIVE PROPER GRAIN ORIENTATION is more costly than folks might imagine.

"If you do, it will be perfect. Flat, level, no gaps, no cup.”

My feeling is that flat, level, no gaps, no cups should be standard tolerance at most any price. Sadly, it isn’t when looking at any number of tables.

“Wanna know something funny; it will not stay that way. Wood is affected by temperature, humidity, and other factors. IT MOVES. It's organic."

BINGO. BINGO. BINGO. And thank you. It is the nutshell of my concern with wood platters. I know, many will say that the fluctuations will be so minute as to obviate any serious issues with musical reproduction. It does appear that Teres has taken this into consideration and feels they have addressed this issue sufficiently. I’d have interest in a detailed, step-by-step process of a platter’s construction – raw wood to finish before having the confidence to buy. Maybe Teres can share that with us. If it is giving away trade secrets, no problem, there are others that don’t share that info, either. It is just a part of an ultimate buying decision. And, as long as I can get my money back in, say, 5-10 years if there are issues, I might just be cool with any current assurances.

"I consider myself a very accomplished woodworker. I do very high end work. For those who are willing to pay for it. I am very expensive."

I consider myself the same, having accomplished many detailed marquetry projects, stringed instrument restorations, and other high-tolerance work. If you can command $10-12K for a wooden armboard and platter, I'd bow and scrape to your ability to exact exorbitant labor prices and propose going into business with you! 

"I can't imagine how Teres builds the table for the price they get for them. I am willing to bet that if you take a look (physically take a look) at a 300 series, the quality will be higher than the 200 series, which is higher than the 100 series. More money = higher quality, period."

With your experience in woodworking, let your imagination flow a bit more. Your equation should be correct, though, and as the price escalates, the nearer to perfection one should expect, even if perfection isn't perceived as mandatory.

Tom:
You are wearing a coat indoors? Sounds like my wife, except it is 65 degrees in our house when she wears hers! :-)

My particular questions are not an attack on Teres, or anyone else, I just have reservations with respect to wood platters that have not yet been fully addressed, at least in my mind. You, and others, know how I feel about the sound quality the Teres tables produce.

However, you alluded in an earlier post that some were conducting such attacks as a means of promoting an agenda against Teres. In your last post you say:

"I'll try not to enter an opinion as to why there is an attack coming upon the Teres tables, even though I think it is quite apparent, due to the sales being taken away from the other more famous TT manufacturers."

This begs a couple of questions which, in the interest of full disclosure, might be of interest. Are there those who have specifically posted in this thread who stand to gain from an anti-Teres campaign? Or, is this something you've seen elsewhere? I mean this board is intolerant of manufacturers and dealers hiding under the cloak of anonymity to unduly bash competing products (and rightfully so). If someone here is entering the discourse with a monetary interest to gain or lose (as opposed to being informative), I, for one, would like to know their identities. On the other hand, I'm sure you'd agree, that otherwise innocent contributors should not be wrongly labeled as a result of possibly incorrect suppositions. I also know that you would never intentionally do such. I don't mind a response "off the air" but others might have interest, as well.

OK, it would appear that only a few of us in this thread have said anything that could even be mildly interpreted as critical of a Teres table. Tom, since I have asked a question of you and you responded only by saying that you have no problems with Patrick’s questions, but DO have problems and suspicions of “others’” remarks, I can only conclude that I am included in the “other” group. My apologies if I misinterpret and, at the risk of taking issue with an Audiogon icon, I do take issue with your comments.

First, let me just say to everyone that I do not have affiliation with any table manufacturer of any kind and I really couldn’t care less what kind of table anyone else buys, provided they are happy and enjoy the music. I highly resent anyone implying otherwise. I have always bristled at those who misrepresent their motives on this board (I have actually called one or two on it myself) and value the integrity upon which my opinions are offered (correct or not). I will add that I do have a friend who owns a stereo shop but I didn’t even buy MY table or any of my components from him - only my cartridge. Besides, his sales are such that Teres sales are hardly a problem for him.

Tom, you have always taken great pains to disassociate yourself of involvement with Teres tables while recommending them and singing their praises at most all opportunities. You have also been fair in your treatment of them in this thread with respect to their need and responsibility to address quality issues. But, if you can do so with no affiliation or bias, why is it that someone who calls to fore possible problems or has design issue concerns is assumed to have ulterior motives? I can assure anyone that this is not the case in my situation regardless of ANYONE’S implication.

I have always questioned the long-term stability of a wooden platter. This is not some reckless “theory”, but is based on a long and thorough background in woodworking methods and wood characteristics. Anyone questioning my own background in the field can be provided umpteen references, including furniture makers in Amana, Iowa where some of the finest furniture and cabinets are produced by truly master craftsmen. And, that is not to say that my expertise trumps all others, only that I don't speak lightly on the topic.

I have personally examined four different Teres tables, three with wood platters, one with acrylic. I can see no evident design features in the wood platters that prove to me that my continued curiosity regarding long-term stability is unjustified, as others have noted. I have seen nothing on the Teres site nor provided by Chris within any threads that satisfy my skepticism, other than his personal assurances and literature as found on the Teres site. As such, I do not consider my views as “theories” of any lesser value than I do “theorized” claims made by Teres. Plus, I cannot afford to buy a platter and cut it open to see its innards. I can cannot prove that their design will not hold up over, say, ten years and neither can they. Time will tell, but having an honest curiosity and wanting to know more about a product’s design does not spell sinister intentions. I actually hope they last forever because I have two very good personal friends who own them, not to mention more than a few “internet friends”.

Further, the idea that someone cannot have a “theory” without having direct experience with the product is silly. A lot of folks have never been in the military but they can, and do, pose valid questions about the use of military hardware in Iraq. OK, maybe not an airtight analogy, but you get the picture. My point is that I do not say folks’ “theorizing” that the wood platter will hold up in the long-term is necessarily wrong or that they have self-serving motives for pumping the Teres design. I only expect equal treatment if I disagree.

Tom, apology accepted, both here and via e-mail. Perhaps I should have only e-mailed you but I felt I was being mentioned as having some vendetta against Teres, which is not the case, and I wanted others to know that. I feel that perhaps this was a case of someone having a bone to pick with what one individual says and being too PC to call them out individually.

It goes without saying that you have been a great help to many on this board and your recommendation of the Teres is not unfounded or unappreciated, nor was such even so much as alluded to in this thread by anyone. That was certainly not my point at all. My only point was that those who call it (or any product) into question do not necessarily have sinister motives. If one does, and another knows that, I think it is their duty to call them out specifically. Since I was the ONLY one to take issue with ANYTHING you said here, something as melodramatic as leaving the thread is clearly unwarranted, as others have said.

I will also add my apologies to the other posters here for wasting there time. No acrimony on my part, just trying to clear my reputation (with need or not).

Speaking of both cocobolo and guitars, my son recently acquired a Taylor 710LTD which has a cocobolo two-piece back. Sounds deeper in tone to his 414ce in Ovangkol and when opening the case, I get a wiff reminiscent of coffee! :-)

I debated on whether to post to this thread again because I suppose it is really none of my business. However, I will share what I have seen only because I don't want it to seem like Patrick is off his rocker, here, or anything. I was one of those to whom Patrick sent pictures of his friend's Teres setup. Patrick had inquired of me initially because I, too, owned an OL Illustrious and he had some questions about VTA adjustment. As it turned out, I had a similar situation with the Illustrious on a 'Not table (not being able to achieve an adequately low "ass-end" VTA setting). Actually, I could get just a hair under, but no more. My problem solved itself after I began using a Mat1 and its thickness allowed me to set VTA just right.

From the pictures that Patrick sent, it appears that Illustrious is as low as it can get, with the bottom of the pillar smack dead against the VTA collar and the VTA collar smack dead against the armboard. In this position, a picture of a lined index card shows that the headshell is just a bit lower than level (meaning up in the back). OTOH, Chris Brady says that it works fine on another 265 in his shop. This would seem to indicate that the 265 Chris is using is different than the 265 owned by Patrick’s friend. Is his plinth/platter overall thickness different? I dunno. I do know that looking at Patrick's pictures would give the impression that the only way to rectify the situation would be to lower the armboard in relation to the plinth/platter. But, I also see where Joe has his armboard up on cones whereas Patrick's friend does not. A significant difference? Again, I dunno. Again, I bring this up not to point the fickle of finger of fate but, rather, to explain that Patrick is not formulating bogus claims without what appears to be reasonable and logical evidence.

I sincerely hope that this gets solved to the satisfaction of everyone. If I were the friend I'd have been having seizures of withdrawl long ago! :-) I assume he has another table! Ha! And, as an aside, I must say that it is above and beyond the call on Mr. Brady’s part to personally fly out and get the table right. However, should it not be the owner’s decision with respect to who is in attendance at the “fixin”?

Oh, this simply MUST be settled by now. No?