Angus Black's Teres Review mentioned above
He doesn't seem to upset about it. He says " The table just continues to amaze day after day" and calls the other stuff minor issues. I've never seen any audio product (or any product for that matter) that got all perfect reviews.
I do wonder about how wood platters will hold out over a decade or so. If you control the humidity I would think it would be ok.
If it really bums you try an Acrylic Platter. You notice how many of the hardwoods are out of stock at their site.
I feel a little guilty about using exotic hardwoods these days.
Yes, I can see that this does not seem to bother the reviewer-- but if it were MY table I would be very upset and unable to dismiss this with an "oh well, BTW".
Hence my post.
Thanks for your reply,
As a former apprentice who graduated from the expert tutelage of my master craftsman grandfather, I have had misgivings with respect to wooden platters.
On the other hand, several Teres users, and the Man himself, posted at some length on this topic on this board not so long ago (suggest a search). Teres believes that it has sufficiently considered and addressed the "woody" issues.
In the end, you have to weigh your decision based on all the information you can find and then act accordingly.
The bearing, motor and speed controller are top drawer. The plinth, platter and armboard design is simple which is a good thing. However, I noticed the same woodworking issues with this 265 plus a couple more. The armboard that was supplied was almost 42 mm tall as opposed to the specified 27 mm. This dimension is not posted on the Teres website as far as I could tell and only found this out after prolonged correspondence. Of course, this has caused a lot of stress trying to establish VTA. Hopefully this will be resolved soon. The armboard bolt that was supplied was much too short. The mating surfaces of the plinth/armboard exibited a lot of daylight which led me to check the top and bottom surfaces of the armboard and what I found was not good. These sufaces are not flat and is very visible with the naked eye in every plane, ie; length, wide and diagonal. The holes that are drilled for the tonearms are done with Forstner bits of inch increments. Since tonearms are fabricated in metric and Forstner bits are readily available in metric sizes I wonder why they don't use them. It would make fitting the VTA collar to the hole a much easier and cleaner job. The irregular wooden surfaces are the result of running short pieces through a planer plus sanding techniques. It's the nature of the process. The platter with this table is cupped from the outside toward the spindle by a considerable degree (perhaps 1/8") but seems to rotate true. I may have a slightly biased opinion about this type of manufacturing that is in disagreement with the manufacturer. I realize that you could take a coffee table and drill three holes in it and probably have a great table but I expected machined surfaces. That is what they say in their description of the platter although the pictured platter is acrylic. Once you get your hands on one of these you understand that there is very little that is critical dimensionally. The holes need to be perpendicular to the plinth. The armboard surfaces need to be parallel to the platter. Of course, the armboard needs to be close to the correct height. Cocobolo may be the best thing that ever happened in the analog world and I doubt that warpage or delamination will ever be an issue BUT I feel strongly that the surfaces should be machined in a mill. I'm not a happy camper and this isn't my table. I did recommend it though and feel very bad for that but I'm also confident that it will be fine in the end. For my money I would buy the bearing and motor/controller and build my own. Perhaps the worst part of this whole thing is writing these words. I hate to do it and I fear I may become very unpopular very quick. I do have photos to back up my claims.
The lamination process used is the same as wooden boat builders use. Cocobolo is a very dense hardwood, which is harvested from the South American Rain Forests. IMO there a better chance of the acrylic platter warping, than their wooden platters. Just beware of termites, & sparks from your fireplace. And don't be tempted to place it atop a clear acrylic sandbox, doubling as a Carpenter Ant Farm :-)~
Thanks Lugnut for your sincere post. I for one always enjoy you posts because of your honest, straightforward answers, and enlightened suggestions.
I too am bulding my own turntable, using a combination of cocobolo wood and brass. And while i have no direct experience with the Teres TT, I absolutley agree with Lugnut, that the term accuracy for a wood-worker is totally different that of a machinist. Every piece of wood on my TT is finished on a lathe or mill, its the only way to get the wood to close enough to my definition of accurate.
OK, Once again, most of you here know what I am doing.
I agree with Patrick about the quality of the bearing, etc. I will also say that the quality of the acrylic platter is top notch. The only problem I can see with the acrylic platter is some VERY FINE scratches, which I doubt 99% of people out there would notice. If I thought it was a problem, I'd call Chris, and I'm sure he would take care of it.
If you have an issue with Teres (the company) woodwooking skills, try this: DO IT YOUR SELF! I am. Then you can find out just how hard it is to do properly. You can get it perfect, if you want, I know I can. But, a very big but, why spend the energy to make it absolutely perfect if it does not have to be? There are parameters that need to be met, but outside of that you just get ridiculous. I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that? If you do, it will be perfect. Flat, level, no gaps, no cup. Wanna know something funny; it will not stay that way. Wood is affected by temperature, humidity, and other factors. IT MOVES. It's organic.
I consider myself a very accomplished woodworker. I do very high end work. For those who are willing to pay for it. I am very expensive. I can't imagine how Teres builds the table for the price they get for them. I am willing to bet that if you take a look (physically take a look) at a 300 series, the quality will be higher than the 200 series, which is higher than the 100 series. More money = higher quality, period.
BTW, I don't feel at all guilty about using exotics. The denser the better, and I am not in the least worried about ants, termites, fire, or any of that goofy crap.
I posted an error and wish to correct this. The platter isn't cupped 1/8". It's more like 1/64" but the cup is irregular as I move a true straight edge around its surface. I'd like to know if the platter is supposed to be flat. Would someone with an acrylic platter please post a comparrison?
When I get home tonight I'll check mine out. I only took it out of the plastic for about 15 min so my friends could ooh & aah it! I have to get it out to mount hopefully this weekend anyway. I'll let you know.
BTW, I'm pissed! I just saw a lead shot loaded platter here and it's sold. I thought I was paying better attention!!
>>BTW, I don't feel at all guilty about using exotics. The denser the better, and I am not in the least worried about ants, termites, fire, or any of that goofy crap.
Hi Joe: The way the statement is structured it is a little hard to tell but I hope you are not saying that being concerned for exotic hardwoods is "goofy crap." I'm not saying don't get a Teres and, in fact, I might get one. But even folks dealing with instruments (guitars etc) have started researching and changing things based on this reality.
Lugnut: I appreciate your post and can't believe anybody would hold it against you.
Joe above >>why spend the energy to make it absolutely perfect if it does not have to be?
I guess this is the big Q: What tolerance is required for a table? I can't answer that one and I'm very interested in everyone's thoughts. I tend to agree with Joe(he as way more experience in wood than I do) that, even if the table is laminated "like a boat" it is going to move.
Goofy crap was intended for the ants, termites etc. comment. Believe me, I do not consider conservation goofy. But, there is a substantial amount of wood out there already. The Cocobolo I am using is an "estate piece" that was harvested in the 1920's. The rest of the wood is old as well. I'm funny about that kind of stuff. My shop is set up for production work and I mostly use engineered wood products. Paul's shop, Period Furniture Restoration, where I'm building the TT, is a craftsmans shop of the highest order. We do not misuse/abuse the medium in which we work!!
I don't think in the Teres plinth (or any other) there is anything remotely resembling tolerences. Now, before I catch hell for this, listen. As long as the top and bottom surfaces are parallel to each other, nothing else matters!! Otherwise you could not level it. Think about it. For that matter, the top does not even have to be flat, as long as the bearing is exactly 90 degrees from horizontal. I've been experimenting with designs, and this is the ONLY requirement that is set in stone.
Basically, the same goes for the armboard. Level, and the right height. It really does not even have to be part of the plinth. As long as it is stable, solid, and non-resonant, you're ok.
Obviously, resonance is a major issue with all of the pieces, but lets leave that issue for another day.
Platters are a different story. The major requirement there is balance. If the weight is not balanced, it will not run true, and will not be able to keep a constant speed. Of course, this requires balance in all axises (axii?) also.
Now, I want to make one thing clear about my comments. I AM IN NO WAY A TURNTABLE EXPERT!! YET. I have done sh**loads of reserch on this subject. I intend to build custom tables for sale. I have a couple of design ideas that I think are really cool, and I also think I can compete with anything out there. My brother-in-law has doctorates in electrical engineering and physics, and as far as the electronics are concerned, he and both I think the Teres motor/controller are the cat's ass! He's also a lawyer, but I don't hold that against him since intelletual property law is his specialty!
One more thing. I think we should turn this thread into a forum for the design issues we have with turnatables. Maybe designs you would like to see. As I said in my last reply, I fully intend to become the next turntable manufacturer out there. I plan on starting out making 2 a month, and going from there. This obsession is starting to make me go right to Paul's shop in the morning, not to mine! We have been spending more time with design ideas lately than I have spent finishing my table. I gotta get this damn thing done!
Some design ideas/questions:
1. Teres motor/controller/bearing but direct drive? Psychic, you listening?
2. Alternative plinth materials?
3. Wood tonearms ala the old Grados
4. Oil/lead filled platters. I found a way to do it.
5. Just how crazy are we?
So, if you were going to have someone custom build you a table, what do you want to see? And, who is going to be the lucky one to review my new table serial #1? Does anybody think there is a better bearing than the Teres? Or their motor?
Preamp of the century my ass, let's see where this goes!!
Let me begin by saying that my intent is not to pick at Teres in particular because all companies seem to have quality control issues at one point or another. The more important issue is whether such problems are addressed quickly and effectively.
Too, I have heard now four different Teres tables and they have, without exception, been great sounding tables. Bottom line? Maybe. However, if there are issues with QC or long-term stability (with any product), it is the very ethos of these boards that folks like Patrick should make others aware of them, provided the comments are fair and reasonable. In that sense, I hope his fears of becoming unpopular as a result are unfounded.
In addition, I do not really mean to single out Jphii, but Im sure it will sound that way. It is just that his post echoes what others have said elsewhere in one post and I must respectfully disagree in some cases.
"If you have an issue with Teres (the company) woodwooking skills, try this: DO IT YOUR SELF! I am. Then you can find out just how hard it is to do properly."
It is not a matter of hard (as in difficult), as much as a matter of having the right equipment, skill and taking the requisite time needed. It is not as if lathes are not available to or used by woodworkers, it is just that many are not properly setup and/or the user does not have sufficient skill. Anyone selling expensive products based on wood should certainly have the proper equipment and skilled labor to deliver a fine product and be able to meet scheduled demand without rushing and thereby sacrificing the product. Note that I am not saying this has been done in Patricks case. I am speaking generally.
"You can get it perfect, if you want, I know I can. But, a very big but, why spend the energy to make it absolutely perfect if it does not have to be? There are parameters that need to be met, but outside of that you just get ridiculous."
That but may be as big as JLos to you, but perhaps not others. Depends on your outlook, I suppose. The point of ridiculous in this hobby does get blurred with some frequency, Ill grant you that!
"I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that?
No, I don't want to spend that, and to do it right should not cost anywhere near $10-12K WITH INLAYS. Oy. You have really got to be kidding on this one. But, yes, the proper pressing equipment in the laminating process and GRAIN MATCHING AND SELECTION TO ACHIVE PROPER GRAIN ORIENTATION is more costly than folks might imagine.
"If you do, it will be perfect. Flat, level, no gaps, no cup.
My feeling is that flat, level, no gaps, no cups should be standard tolerance at most any price. Sadly, it isnt when looking at any number of tables.
Wanna know something funny; it will not stay that way. Wood is affected by temperature, humidity, and other factors. IT MOVES. It's organic."
BINGO. BINGO. BINGO. And thank you. It is the nutshell of my concern with wood platters. I know, many will say that the fluctuations will be so minute as to obviate any serious issues with musical reproduction. It does appear that Teres has taken this into consideration and feels they have addressed this issue sufficiently. Id have interest in a detailed, step-by-step process of a platters construction raw wood to finish before having the confidence to buy. Maybe Teres can share that with us. If it is giving away trade secrets, no problem, there are others that dont share that info, either. It is just a part of an ultimate buying decision. And, as long as I can get my money back in, say, 5-10 years if there are issues, I might just be cool with any current assurances.
"I consider myself a very accomplished woodworker. I do very high end work. For those who are willing to pay for it. I am very expensive."
I consider myself the same, having accomplished many detailed marquetry projects, stringed instrument restorations, and other high-tolerance work. If you can command $10-12K for a wooden armboard and platter, I'd bow and scrape to your ability to exact exorbitant labor prices and propose going into business with you!
"I can't imagine how Teres builds the table for the price they get for them. I am willing to bet that if you take a look (physically take a look) at a 300 series, the quality will be higher than the 200 series, which is higher than the 100 series. More money = higher quality, period."
With your experience in woodworking, let your imagination flow a bit more. Your equation should be correct, though, and as the price escalates, the nearer to perfection one should expect, even if perfection isn't perceived as mandatory.
Well, I guess I had better weigh in here. I have been touting the Teres tables for quite a while now. Mine was very good in all respects, and was bought almost 2 years ago. Whether anything has happened to the QC since then, I don't know. Anyhow, I think it is up to whoever is buying the table as to whether they are concerned with these issues, and up to Chris about how he handles his QC and customer service. I don't have any stake in this matter at all, other than that I have recommended these tables in the past.
What I can say about tolerances on the platter surface is that it may not be as critical as some may think. I think that the vinyl records are not very uniform, sometimes are warped, and many platter mats or other platters may, or may not, be very perfect in their surfaces either. I haven't measured any, and frankly am wondering why people are measuring these things, unless there is some visual evidence that they are very far out, or there is some reason why some folks are concerned that Teres is cutting into the sales of some other turntable makers. I don't remember anyone measuring the platters of any other TT maker. But, then again, the other TT makers are not making the "waves" in the industry that Teres has made, and some people may be a little upset about it. In my opinion, however, the platter surface should be quite level and uniform in a production turntable. How much difference that it may make to the actual performance of the table could be debatable. Circumference tolerances would be much more critical in my opinion, regarding the speed regulation.
I've corresponded with Lugnut about the problems with the 265 that he is working on, and there is no doubt that there were some notable QC issues with that table. Also there were some notable customer service failures with that table when Pat tried to remedy the problems. So there is definitely a certified example of a problem with that one table. However, whether this can be extrapolated to the idea that there are problems with all of their tables may be going a little too far.
In any case, as with any manufacturer, the customer has the final say as to whether they will buy a given product. If Chris has gotten into QC problems and can't rectify them, then it will reflect in loss of sales. If he takes good care of the QC problems and rectifies the situation to the satisfaction of each customer, then he will be alright. All manufacturers have QC issues to handle.
To each his own. If you want a nice table that outperforms most or all of the competition, then a Teres is a viable option. If you cannot tolerate any QC problems, or have no DIY ability to overcome some of these issues yourself, then maybe a Teres is not for you. If you feel that getting a perfect QC product that doesn't perform as well as a Teres, and costs more than a Teres is what you want to do, then go for it.
In the final analysis, you buy what you want. Nobody is twisting anybody's arm to buy a Teres turntable. No turntable manufacturer is perfect, and they all have some kind of QC issues. To ask for perfection from any manufacturer is unrealistic. As long as your customer service issues are handled satisfactorily, and the product performs as you expected, that is what matters.
This is aside from the bearing and motor/controller.
Regarding your question about required tolerances, the Teres design has few critical tolerances. There are three holes in the plinth that all need to be perfectly vertical. I don't know how critical the manufacturer considers the location of the holes in plan view are but I know that there is a wide margin of real world allowable tolerances. The platter and armboard need to be level with each other when assembled.
The armboard pivots to the required spindle to center of arm dimension and locks down with the pivot bolt. The armboard height needs to be within the VTA adjustment.
Do not take my concerns any further than questioning if woodworking techniques have replaced machining. The project is well thought out.
This is a personal opinion based on spending so much time analyizing this table. The top surface of the platter should be machined. I feel that the plinth should be machined at the armboard mating surface perpendicular to the bearing mounting hole. The armboard should be machined top and bottom to insure its level with the plane of the platter although the heights are different. The holes for the pivot and the tonearm mounting must be perpendicular to the mating surface on the plinth.
If I were making my own table I would provide a locking bolt for the armboard. It's too easy to bump the armboard and move it with just the pivot bolt alone.
You know, the lag time on these posts are killing me.
David, I got a little carried away there:
"I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that?
No, I don't want to spend that, and to do it right should not cost anywhere near $10-12K WITH INLAYS. Oy. You have really got to be kidding on this one. But, yes, the proper pressing equipment in the laminating process and GRAIN MATCHING AND SELECTION TO ACHIVE PROPER GRAIN ORIENTATION is more costly than folks might imagine."
It was meant a little to be a little sarcastic, and I agree with your comment. I feel that absolute quality DOES NOT HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE. And, I think we could combine a little marquetry on the top & sides, dress up the arm board.
And that's what I am going to try and do: Make it "perfect" and keep down the cost. Who needs another 10k turntable? Id be willing to do that on a commission basis, but production is another thing. 3-4k is a different story. Remember, the Teres motor/platter/bearing costs $1500. The time I have spent on mine is crazy. One cannot spend that kind of time on a project and expect it to be financially feasible.
BTW, Im locking down my arm board from the top. One knob. Easy adjustment.
Thank you for having the courage to post this publically, though I hope we Teres-philes have never been intimidating. I trust CB will replace the armboard with one of the proper height.
After I got your email I checked my platter and it's pretty flat. Not "perfect" of course, but closer than 1/64". I'm not sure how critical this is, virtually every record is warped by that much or more.
OTOH I quite agree about the armboard issues, since I experienced them myself. The armboard should be finished as flat and smooth as my plinth, which is so perfect it's hard to believe it's made of wood. It's also really important that its top/bottom surfaces be parallel. I had to file a burr off mine, as I told you.
Metric drill bits seem pretty obvious too. I've been posting and advising new buyers for months that Teres is drilling the wrong size hole for Rega/OL arms with a VTA collar.
I too had to buy a longer armboard bolt at Home Depot. For $3800 I suppose one should get the right length bolt. Perhaps fitting one's armboard is meant to be a reference to Teres' DIY roots? ;)
Judging by Patrick's very positive reaction to the sonics of his friend's Teres on another thread, I think his concerns stem largely from his considerable expertise as a woodworker. He understands how easy it would be for Teres to do some things even better.
FWIW, I'm still convinced that a 200 series Teres is the bargain of the decade. Except for those armboard glitches, everything about my 265 approaches world class. I got a TT that rivals or mainstream $8-12K tables for less than $4K, and a 255 may be an even bigger bargain.
AS YOU WILL NOTE THERE ARE ALOT OF RESPONSES TO YOUR POST. I AM GOING TO GET FLAMED AFTER THIS AS THE TERES CULT WILL COME LOOKING, BUT, THE TABLES ARE NOT STABLE. PERIOD.
AudiogoN HAS MANY TERES (WOOD) LOVERS, I HAVE SEEN 20 COME OUT AND RAVE ON THEIR TERES WHEN SOMEONE ASKS WHICH TABLE. I AM SURE THAT THE TABLES SOUND WONDERFUL, HOWEVER, WOOD WILL MOVE ITS ENTIRE LIFE AND THAT IS ONE OF THE BEAUTIES OF IT, but not for audio precision. DO YOU SEE ANY WOODEN ARMS, BEARINGS? MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS ON THE OTHERHAND ARE DESIGNED TO VIBRATE AND MOVE TO CREATE SOUND, THE COMBINATION OF PLEASING HARMONICS AND NATURAL BEAUTY MAKE WOOD A NATURAL CHOICE. OTHER THAN PERCEIVED BEAUTY, I CANNOT THINK OF ANY PRECISION MACHINES THAT RELY ON CELULOSE IN THE REAL WORLD.
THE PROBLEM IS VARIOUS PARTS ON THE TABLE ARE ALL MOVING AT DIFFERENT RATES ALBEIT MICRO, AND MOVEMENT IN A TABLE IS LOSS OF DEFINITION, DYNAMICS AND DYNAMIC RANGE.
BUY A WOODEN TT FOR ASTHETICS AND ITS MAJOR SHORTFALL BUT DON'T CONFUSE WOOD WITH HIGH PERFORMANCE.
It's no secret wood can't be machined to high tolerances...
As far as the Teres tables not being stable, I live in a log cabin in East Tennessee, and I am currently sitting in my living room, where it is currently about 48 degrees INDOORS. I have a coat on. I am often out for nights and weekends and don't even run the heat during these times. I have temperature swings indoors from about 35 degrees in winter when I come back before I get the wood stove going, to about 95 degrees in summer because I have no air conditioning. The humidity ranges from about 20% during the winter to about 95% very commonly all summer, even when it isn't raining. Very humid climate here in the summer. I'd dare say that my temp and humidity swings are far far greater than ANYBODY reading this post. Sometimes I have temp swings of about 40 degrees IN A SINGLE DAY, like today when I came home this morning during an ice storm and then started warming up the house with the wood stove, which will eventually get it up to about 75 degrees before I go to bed. Also, my TT sits right next to a 6' sliding glass door, which doesn't have the greatest insulation, and gets opened to go out from time to time, even when it's very cold out.
I have a wood based Teres 245, and have NEVER had ANY instability problems whatsoever with my table. My table sounds great any time I play it(although I do have to adjust the VTF because of temp sensitivity in the cartridge).If any of you reading this even come close to this level of change in your listening environments, I would be VERY surprised.
In case there is any concern about my system having enough resolution to hear any changes, I might refer you to my system thread which will show a high efficiency SET OTL tube system that will reveal EVERYTHING mercilessly through 100db single driver speakers.
I fully understand the idea about wood moving around, since I also do woodwork in my custom acoustic guitar making activities. But I can state unequivocally that my Teres does not change sound performance because of any wood instability.
As far as no wood being used in tonearms, one of the highest regarded tonearms in the world right now, the Schroder, has a wood wand on it. Nobody seems to be complaining about it.
I'll try not to enter an opinion as to why there is an attack coming upon the Teres tables, even though I think it is quite apparent, due to the sales being taken away from the other more famous TT manufacturers.
I have nothing to do with the Teres Audio company now, nor have I had anything to do with them in the past, ever. I work for another audio company, and have no axe to grind about Teres, nor do I have any profit or loss motivation involved. I simply use their table, and am very happy with its performance and value, and have experienced none of the things being discussed on this thread in almost 2 years of ownership time.
IMHO, and YMMV.
Yeah, all I've heard so far is the relative potential of this table since VTA (SRA) is so critical, especially with the 901. I will let everyone know what my impression is once it's set up properly. I imagine it will meet my expectations or exceed them. Just for the record, if the armboard would have been the right height I would never have looked so closely at the surfaces of all the pieces. Keep in mind though that the Teres website says the platter is MACHINED to very close tolerances. Like 4yanx, I too would like to know exactly how the platter is made. If the parts are run through a planer and then sanded, that doesn't meet my definition of machined.
On a side note to everyone I would like to express my appreciation for the kind remarks. I feared that I would really be seen as a touble maker which I'm not. The trouble was with the armboard, not me. It took quit a bit of effort on my part to eliminate every other possible part as the culprit. Maybe I'm wrong but I haven't been able to find detailed drawings of the armboard or platter on the Teres website. If those would have been posted then I would have found out long ago that the armboard was about 1/2" too high. Chris said to me repeatedly that there must be something different about the Illustrious. In retrospect it should have been obvious to him when I had to buy a 2" Forstner bit to deepen the bottom hole 1/2" just to attach the nut to the arm. In this case, getting his attention was like pulling teeth and I've got to say this aspect really pissed me off. There is really no excuse for shipping the wrong bolt length since the potential of stripping the wooden threads goes way up when one is trying to secure the armboard to a point where a minor bump doesn't require you to re-setup the whole package. Drilling the wrong size hole for the VTA collars is inexcuseable also. Honestly, these issues may be minor in the scope of things but how would the Teres group like it if their tire dealer only had 3 of the correct size tires and mounted the fourth tire with whatever size they had on hand?
Once again, there aren't that many critical dimensions. Not many of the surfaces are critical either. Those that are should be held to the standards expressed on the Teres website.
I haven't detected an attack on Teres like you are insinuating. I don't think you are referring to me but for the record I recommended this table combo to my friend. I still own the same turntable I've had for well over twenty years. I am not affiliated with any audio manufacturer nor do I own stock in any audio companies. I'm not trying to use this situation for personal gain in any way. I know you already know these facts but provide them for the rest of the audience. Do you have any examples of an attack against Teres to share with us?
You are wearing a coat indoors? Sounds like my wife, except it is 65 degrees in our house when she wears hers! :-)
My particular questions are not an attack on Teres, or anyone else, I just have reservations with respect to wood platters that have not yet been fully addressed, at least in my mind. You, and others, know how I feel about the sound quality the Teres tables produce.
However, you alluded in an earlier post that some were conducting such attacks as a means of promoting an agenda against Teres. In your last post you say:
"I'll try not to enter an opinion as to why there is an attack coming upon the Teres tables, even though I think it is quite apparent, due to the sales being taken away from the other more famous TT manufacturers."
This begs a couple of questions which, in the interest of full disclosure, might be of interest. Are there those who have specifically posted in this thread who stand to gain from an anti-Teres campaign? Or, is this something you've seen elsewhere? I mean this board is intolerant of manufacturers and dealers hiding under the cloak of anonymity to unduly bash competing products (and rightfully so). If someone here is entering the discourse with a monetary interest to gain or lose (as opposed to being informative), I, for one, would like to know their identities. On the other hand, I'm sure you'd agree, that otherwise innocent contributors should not be wrongly labeled as a result of possibly incorrect suppositions. I also know that you would never intentionally do such. I don't mind a response "off the air" but others might have interest, as well.
Take it easy all you Tree Huggers.
Sayas' theoretical speculations are interesting, I guess, but every person who's A/B'd a "stable" acrylic Teres against an "unstable" wood one has preferred the wood. There has never been a single exception. If my real world pleasure isn't consistent with someone's theory I let them fret about it. Life is too short.
David has heard a Teres in the company of quite a few other well-regarded TT's. He's heard exactly what I hear. His question about the long term viability of a wood platter is legitimate, but it's ultimately answerable only by the passage of time. While that time is passing in my home, my deteriorating platter receives the best therapy I can give it: constant gyroscopic stabilization at 33rpm.
300 hours and smilin' more every day...
While I thank everyone for their response thus far to my initial post, I will reiterate what I stated originally:
"Perhaps some of the members here with first hand experience will be able to put my concern at ease with regard to the reviewers statement."
*First Hand Experience* being the operative phrase-- and of utmost importance to me. Many thanks to all those with that experience who have taken the time to post.
It is those with that experience, that the basis for my decisions shall come.
I would like to say that in favor of Chris Brady and Teres- I find the policy stated on the website refreshing.
..."Our philosophy is to simply take care of our customers regardless of circumstances. If you are unhappy for any reason with a Teres purchase you are entitled to return it for a full refund at any time. If there are problems or questions we provide support and repair as needed, free of charge. No time limits, no limitations, no excuses. We believe that this blanket commitment to customer satisfaction is more mutually satisfying than would be possible with a legal document."
I will however, be seriously reweighing my purchase decision. (although there seem to be but few other tables on my short list at this time.)
One of the things that I value about this avenue of discussion is that often times the manufacturers themselves will post their philosophies, thoughts and feelings. Perhaps this will happen in this case.
Pat, I have no problem with any of your statements, since they come from a personal experience with the table. I simply take issue with others' statements which seem to stem from some sort of "theory" which is not borne out from actual use of the turntables under discussion. I can only conclude that there is some other reason for speculation like this, which doesn't come from experience with these units.
Regarding Black Angus' conclusions about "platter slightly off true", what does that mean? A few thou? Half an inch? What? And since it is probably a few thou, which didn't prompt him to worry about fixing it, and he is happy with the performance of the table, aren't some people trying to make something big out of this, when it seems to be a very minor issue in the eyes and ears of the reviewer Black Angus?
Personally, I find your experience to be much more troubling, in that you didn't get immediate attention to your legitimate problem with the armboard. That rests clearly on Chris' shoulders. Hopefully it was just a holiday related issue that won't happen again.
OK, it would appear that only a few of us in this thread have said anything that could even be mildly interpreted as critical of a Teres table. Tom, since I have asked a question of you and you responded only by saying that you have no problems with Patricks questions, but DO have problems and suspicions of others remarks, I can only conclude that I am included in the other group. My apologies if I misinterpret and, at the risk of taking issue with an Audiogon icon, I do take issue with your comments.
First, let me just say to everyone that I do not have affiliation with any table manufacturer of any kind and I really couldnt care less what kind of table anyone else buys, provided they are happy and enjoy the music. I highly resent anyone implying otherwise. I have always bristled at those who misrepresent their motives on this board (I have actually called one or two on it myself) and value the integrity upon which my opinions are offered (correct or not). I will add that I do have a friend who owns a stereo shop but I didnt even buy MY table or any of my components from him - only my cartridge. Besides, his sales are such that Teres sales are hardly a problem for him.
Tom, you have always taken great pains to disassociate yourself of involvement with Teres tables while recommending them and singing their praises at most all opportunities. You have also been fair in your treatment of them in this thread with respect to their need and responsibility to address quality issues. But, if you can do so with no affiliation or bias, why is it that someone who calls to fore possible problems or has design issue concerns is assumed to have ulterior motives? I can assure anyone that this is not the case in my situation regardless of ANYONES implication.
I have always questioned the long-term stability of a wooden platter. This is not some reckless theory, but is based on a long and thorough background in woodworking methods and wood characteristics. Anyone questioning my own background in the field can be provided umpteen references, including furniture makers in Amana, Iowa where some of the finest furniture and cabinets are produced by truly master craftsmen. And, that is not to say that my expertise trumps all others, only that I don't speak lightly on the topic.
I have personally examined four different Teres tables, three with wood platters, one with acrylic. I can see no evident design features in the wood platters that prove to me that my continued curiosity regarding long-term stability is unjustified, as others have noted. I have seen nothing on the Teres site nor provided by Chris within any threads that satisfy my skepticism, other than his personal assurances and literature as found on the Teres site. As such, I do not consider my views as theories of any lesser value than I do theorized claims made by Teres. Plus, I cannot afford to buy a platter and cut it open to see its innards. I can cannot prove that their design will not hold up over, say, ten years and neither can they. Time will tell, but having an honest curiosity and wanting to know more about a products design does not spell sinister intentions. I actually hope they last forever because I have two very good personal friends who own them, not to mention more than a few internet friends.
Further, the idea that someone cannot have a theory without having direct experience with the product is silly. A lot of folks have never been in the military but they can, and do, pose valid questions about the use of military hardware in Iraq. OK, maybe not an airtight analogy, but you get the picture. My point is that I do not say folks theorizing that the wood platter will hold up in the long-term is necessarily wrong or that they have self-serving motives for pumping the Teres design. I only expect equal treatment if I disagree.
David, sorry for not mentioning your name in the group with actual experience with the Teres tables. I was just responding specifically to Pat's post. I don't mean to create problems here, and perhaps it would just be better if I exit out of this thread before any other feelings get hurt.
I would only say to others reading these posts to do what you want. It is no skin off my back, whatever turntable anyone buys. I thought I was being helpful in the past by recommending what I thought was a good way to get great sound and save money. Sorry if I offended anyone, or if anyone thinks I gave them a bum steer.
>>I thought I was being helpful in the past by recommending what I thought was a good way to get great sound and save money.
>>Sorry if I offended anyone, or if anyone thinks I gave them a bum steer.
I don't think anybody thinks that and quite the contrary. And there is really no reason to leave the thread Tom as you probably have more hands-on experience than any of us. Maybe Patrick just had a poor experience with one table.As I said in the first post above. I've never seen any product with all perfect reviews.
I see it got a little carried away here when I went off to work on my TT (BTW, new pics will be up Here
). Give me a little time to get them up this morning.
Couple of points. But first, like everyone else, I have no affiliation or financial interest in any manufacturer save myself. If I stand to gain or lose anything it will be because I plan on trying to make a table of my own design using the Teres bearing & motor. I have absolutely no intention of bashing Teres and am nothing but a very satisfied customer.
Surely you want to give it some thought. This is not a small purchase. But there are a couple of things you need to think about. Why is everybody so happy with this turntable? There has to be a reason. Personally, I would not let the two, thats right, only two, issues that have been raised here to dissuade me from buying it. Think of those of us who have dealt with Teres and are very satisfied. I heard he has something like 300 tables out there. Two problems is less than 1%. I dont think thats too shabby. If that was a car, it would lead the JD Power list forever. Thats my OPINION.
My Acrylic platter is flat, I would say well less that 1/64" deviation. I was going to put it on a surface plate and use a dial indicator, but that seemed to be a little ridiculous. I also have an answer for the arm board problem. Will email offline.
Wood platters holding up over time. Well, I have given this one a lot of thought, and since I plan to make one soon, here's what I think. The Teres cocobolo platter SEEMS to be made of blocks, infused with west systems epoxy, then drilled for lead. I personally feel due to my experiences with wood, boats, and west systems products that this system SHOULD be able to stand the test of time. A long time. The only problem I would worry about is stress cracks during the machining process. With material the material differences, machining it using standard woodworking methods is probably not a good idea if you want to keep it true. But trying to find a more precision metal lathe that will swing 13" is a problem I worry about when I get there.
Wood can be machined to very high tolerances. It's all a matter of having the right tools and knowing how to use them. The problems that arise when trying to maintain precision are caused by the wide variations in hardness between epoxies and wood. This could be where metal working machinery gives an edge.
I agree, there must be something to it if everyone prefers the wood platter. This has got to be something due to resonant properties and density. Denser is better. No brainer. If there is an even better material, Ill find it. Been doing sh**loads of research on this.
I was gonna see if I could drive over and listen to your TT, but, um, maybe in the spring! Seriously though, your situation is probably the most extreme real world test of any wood product. There is the potential to bring out the worst in the platter, and it sounds like there is no worst. This seems to lend credence to a west systems type manufacturing of the platter. This epoxy will lend stability that would otherwise be unattainable using conventional glues especially under these extreme circumstances.
I've said it before, but my experiences with Teres quality is limited to the bearing, motor, acrylic platter et al. I actually have all of these parts sitting in front of me at this moment, as I write. There IS NOT ONE PIECE that I am not impressed with. All of it is the very highest quality. Right down to the cool mylar belt. Nice!
So while I have the ability, I decided to save a few thousand dollars and get the finish I want. If I want to do a little Intarsia to dress it up, cool (do you know what I mean, David?). Although having Ramond's book far from makles me an expert on the process! So I cannot comment on the fit & finish of the finished Teres models. This thread started because of someone's review of the wood platter, and the concerns it raised. Fair enough, for this kind of money it should be damn good.
As stated earlier in this thread you ARE an Audiogon icon. Nobody that I know of has any ill will toward you. You and I have communicated via phone for hours on end about a variety of audio and non-audio subjects. You've taken the time to share your expertise through volumous emails with me. Your patience with the unenlightened far exceeds mine. It is my hope that my experience is a somewhat isolated affair but I do feel that Teres needs to take some measures beyond fixing my complaints. It's in their own self interests to do so.
Thanks for the nice comments. But I think it may be best for me to just stay out of this now. I'm sure you all can come to your own conclusions just fine.
Pat, I agree that it is in everyone's best interest for an audio manufacturer to have good QC and customer service.
Tom, apology accepted, both here and via e-mail. Perhaps I should have only e-mailed you but I felt I was being mentioned as having some vendetta against Teres, which is not the case, and I wanted others to know that. I feel that perhaps this was a case of someone having a bone to pick with what one individual says and being too PC to call them out individually.
It goes without saying that you have been a great help to many on this board and your recommendation of the Teres is not unfounded or unappreciated, nor was such even so much as alluded to in this thread by anyone. That was certainly not my point at all. My only point was that those who call it (or any product) into question do not necessarily have sinister motives. If one does, and another knows that, I think it is their duty to call them out specifically. Since I was the ONLY one to take issue with ANYTHING you said here, something as melodramatic as leaving the thread is clearly unwarranted, as others have said.
I will also add my apologies to the other posters here for wasting there time. No acrimony on my part, just trying to clear my reputation (with need or not).
Joe, Intarsia for the Teres! Hmmm. I recall doing a lot of that at one time including a project for a woman who wanted clusters of grapes, vines, and leaves to spread out over the back stretcher of a rocking chair and then spill down the sides and out onto the arms. A toughy.
What are your plans for your wood table? Just on the base, or maybe musical notes round the platter! :-) One thought is that if you're going to use coco, SHARPEN those tools! :-)
I still have a great affinity for marquetry, though, and can think of any number of inlay patterns that would be absolutely stunning on an all-wood table.
Okay, Teres owners please take out a ruler and tell me how tall your armboards are. I'm getting conflicting information as to the height. Chris states in an email to me that 27 mm (1.06") is the right height and that sounds good based on my problems. The one supplied was over 41 mm (1.60") and another owner is under the impression that is the correct height. The only thing I can think of that would make both these two dimensions work is if the platter height had changed at some point.
Although this thread seems to have gotten a bit terse, I would like to say...
TWL, I highly value your input, and look forward to the continued sharing of your knowledge and wisdom in future threads. It is with your unselfish willingness to share both your time and experiences that I have learned a great deal with regard turntables-- I respect your decision to exit this thread.
Jphii, A huge thank you for taking the time to document your work, and provide everyone with photographs via your outstanding website. Exemplary woodworking, I can't wait to see the finished table. WOW!
I only wish I had the skills!!! We have an intern at the shop who is going to study further in Germany after she graduates from ECU. She wants to learn marquetry in a big way. I have a feeling she will be very, very good at it.
This base won't have any of the goodies on it, except for the veneer and the big piece of ebony inlaid on the top. I've wanted to do it, but it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would, and I want the damn thing running now! So, the next one will be the showpiece. I'll start with the platter, because I want to experience the difference. I'll have time to go to town on that one!
Mine is 2 3/4" YHM.
My armboard is about 1.6" high, and works fine with my expressimo rega arm / VTA collar (i have a 245)
I'd like to know something too. How tall are your platters? Both installed & static height.
my platter is about 2 5/8" tall. the gap between the wood base (is that the plinth?) and the platter is about 1/8", 6 3/8" high total off the shelf. (it sits in the bottom of a very large and heavy cherry tansu).
Truly an educational thread. Thanks, all!
Conclusion: Teres is not perfect. Maybe going forward, Chris will now measure and make sure his tables are more uniformly made.
Enjoying my lurk immensely. If it's any consolation, Psychic and I are getting info from someone in a position to know that the platters of our beloved SL1200's (of which the platter is my least-beloved part, for its resonance) have lately begun arriving in a 'non-flat' condition (yeah, they don't cost what audiophile TT's do, and also use a compliant damping mat, but our sort always likes to brag on the 70's-era Nipponese mass-market quality angle :-) Well, I got inspired by Patrick and went down and took a 7" aluminum architectural scale to mine ('83 vintage), and you know what? Approx. 1/64" uniform deviation. I think it's dished, and I think they knew what they were doing.
Jphii: I've got all kinds of radical ideas for a TT design - just don't know how to implement any of them or how well they'd work. Send me a million bucks and I'll be happy to share. ;^)
FWIW: Personally, I don't really see *slight* deviations from perfect platter flatness as ever presenting an audible problem, and if a wood platter sounded best, I wouldn't be scared to get it. IMO though, if one isn't clamping and using a mat anyway, the deviations inherent in the record will make this whole question nothing more than an academic point of aesthetics. (Sorry Focusedfx, but that's based on absolutely no personal Teres experience whatsoever, which will be my reason for making like Tom and receding back into the 'woodwork' now...)
if you don't mind voids under the vinyl and the echo from the stylus etch coming back into the playback i guess a non uniform platter or making the vinyl conform to the platter is OK!
think about it, for a moment, you are trying to isolate and subtract not add. same reason you get a higher tolerance (quiet) spindle bearing or higher tolerance (quiet) motor or higher tolerance (quiet) arm bearing... i could go on but i think everyone gets the drift here
bottom line engineering out the imperfections in the tt components makes a better performing system. so by noise elimination in the tt, just as we prefer lp's with no ticks and pops, is the best chance to deliver the finest musical performances.
don't argue this point just consider the the compromises you accept to have a wooden system
I just got back from CES and this is my first opportunity to respond to this thread.
First I should address the original question of the platter not being 100% true.. a very slight rise. I saw that comment
on audioasylum and plan to contact the poster about it. If it is a problem all depends on what he means by "very slight rise". If he is talking about a few thousandths then it is not a concern. If the deviation is much larger than that then there could be a problem with either the platter or how the platter is seated on the bearing, the latter being more likely.
Lugnut posted a number of concerns about the 265 that he has been setting up for a friend. There are a number of issues that perhaps I should address separately.
1) Armboard height - The delivered armboard is the correct height (1.6", 42mm) and was drilled correctly. I verified all of the pertinent dimensions with Mark Baker of Origin Live at CES. However, the arm (OL Illustrious) evidently does not fit. I will suggest the the buyer send the arm and armboard to me to sort out the problem.
2) The armboard bolt was too short - Lugnut is right about this one. We increased the height of the base and I mistakenly shipped a few tables with the wrong bolt. Yup, a QC problem but easily corrected.
3) The armboard and base surfaces are not completely flat -
Yes, Lugnut is correct. The wood surfaces on the base and armboard are not perfectly flat. There are a couple of reasons for this as some other posters have noted. These pieces are hand made with wood working equipment. They are
quite flat and true but do not have the degree of precision that you would get from a machine shop. We could machine these parts on CNC machines at considerably greater cost but because thy are constructed from wood they would
develop the minor irregularities that Lugnut noted. I have the utmost confidence that the current techniques we are using result in more than adequate precision to provide both proper alignment and good sound. If you want a table with perfectly flat surfaces then one constructed from aluminum or acrylic is the way to go. If one the other hand you are interested in good sound wood is a real winner. Contrary to what is being implied, I do not believe that this is a QC problem. However, I intend to take the information and look ways to make improvements. But don't look for us adding significant cost to Teres turntables in the quest for precision that does not yield a sonic benefit.
4) The platter surface is cupped 1/8" - Sorry but this is simply not true. Whatever degree of imprecision that may exist in that platter it would be impossible to have that much error without major cracks and splitting. While high precision is not justified for the base and armboard that is not the case for the platter. We go to great lengths to stabilize the wood in the platter and they are machined on CNC machines to close tolerances. I have one of the oldest wood platters in existence and it remains very flat and true. It is true that even with the best efforts wood will not be perfectly stable. It is inevitable the there will be very small deviations. However, this once again needs to be kept in proper perspective. Minor deviations are only important if they have an audible impact. The prototype wood platter that we threw together with no stabilization effort after a time became grossly out of round (about 3/32" radially). However, even in it's flawed state it still sounded dramaticly better than very precise acrylic.
Update. I received an email from Chris and will be boxing the arm up to send to him. Hopefully the culprit item will be identified and replaced. I did post a clarification about the 1/8" (wrong) platter deviation as soon as I caught it. I apologize for the error but it was an honest one, caught by me and corrected in this thread in just a few minutes after the original post. Whenever this project is wrapped up I will post to this thread the details of the process and more importantly my overall impressions of the performance of all the components that are being used as they work together.
I communicated directly with OL and the retailer of the arm and the cartridge being used a couple of months ago after sending detailed photos. Early on I had recommended that the arm and the armboard be sent to Chris for his evaluation. I'm relieved we are at this point. As painful as this process was (posting to this thread) for everyone, I believe it will be beneficial to all in the long run.
Guys, this is what it's all about. Honest conversation, concern & community.
Lurking through this thread, any analog enthusiast is bound to pick up some knowledge, I sure did.
As one happy to survive 8th grade Woodshop with a "B", and no interest in becoming a woodworking audiophile, the relative tolerances and expectations re: woodworking and vs. machining makes for some interesting reading. Not sure if the final result is more or less interest in owning any DIY-ish gear(Teres or other), but feeling more informed about it now.
As for the potential integrity issue, I'm pretty confident that this thread goes on to attest to the knowledge and sense of community of the posters that make the analog board the best part of Audiogon. Thanks!
Spencer aka sbank
A thank you to Chris for taking the time to show the level of customer support one can expect from Teres.
This cements my decision regarding my up and coming turntable purchase.
Customer service, honesty, support, and satisfaction are all key elements in any business (often times lacking in so many areas of our lives today.)
Chris' candid response and genuine involvement exhibit all of the above attributes in such a positive light that perhaps this will stand as a model for other manufacturers to follow.