I am looking for a "last amp purchase" one I can keep for 20+ years and pass down to my son someday. This probably won't happen, but it is a very good possibility.
I have gone through numerous over the years, with fairly bad luck with them, UNRELIABILITY!
I have narrowed it to these two amps. I know they are both very good.
I would like thoughts on them from other audio people as yourselves. Before you say these speakers suck, I wanted to say I auditioned A LOT of different ones before settling on these. I use energy rc-70's, only about 45-50 hours on them, nowhere near broken in yet. I LOVE their sound, period.
People say these amps are too good for the speaks, I think not. Maybe sanders preamp.
I have heard magtech sounds thin, and others say it's amazing.
Anyway, what's your thoughts on odyssey kismet monos or sanders magtech. Thanks
You're at no risk if you try the Sanders Magtech. Roger will send it to you, you can try it for 30 days, and you can return it if you don't think it's a good fit.
I would recommend a thorough demo of the Magtech. While Roger claims that his amp doesn't require break-in beyond an hour or two of warmup, I have my doubts about that. I gave the Magtech a fairly short demo (several days) and sent it back on Roger's premise that "how it sounds after an hour is how it will sound in the future."
It runs cool, has tons of power, is risk-free to demo, and Roger is most helpful.
In the end, though, I settled on the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated, which arrives at my house today. Whoop!
So I have an early version Kismet in Stratos and just got the Sanders Magtech to demo on my Magnepan 3.7's. The Sanders is much better, especially at higher volumes. It's less grainy overall. The Kismet may reveal more detail though. If you're running efficient speakers, it may not make as big of a difference.
the Sanders Magtech & ESL amps are meant to drive ESL speakers. That doesnt mean that they cannot drive other speakers... .....but you have to understand the difference, electrically, between an ESL & a cone-driver speaker. An ESL can be thought of as a huge capacitor. The impedance profile of a capacitor is XC= 1/2*pi*f*C. I.E. when the freq is low (bass), the impedance of an ESL is very high. When the freq is high (treble) the impedance of an ESL is very low. Exactly opposite of a cone-driver speaker. Another difference is that an ESL is a voltage driven speaker - remember it's a capacitor & a capacitor is a voltage-driven device. A cone-driver speaker, 99% of the time, is a current-driven device since it often has a much lower impedance. Therefore, if you read the Magtech & ESL specs, you will find that their rails voltages are very high. This is done to develop sufficient voltage at the speaker terminals. You might not need such high rail voltages for your Energy RC-70 speakers but i think you will need a lot more current. Keep this info in mind as you make your selection....
bdp24, the correct answer is that I'm not sure......... ..........but if I read between the lines then * if you see the electrical specs, you see 500W/ch in 8 & 900W/ch into 4 (Magtech). * if you see the weight, you see it's just 55lbs. When did you last come across a 500W/ch in 8 Ohms that weighed just 55 lbs? In my experience once the amp is 500W/ch into 8 the weight of the amp is well north of 100lbs if they are high current. Maybe this amp is suitable for Magneplanars? The best would be to ask Roger. He's very helpful & a really nice person to talk to...
Thanks, I believe I'll do that. I'm about to set up a pair of Tympani IV's, and am gonna need more amp! Only for the two bass panels, so the amp doesn't need a great midrange and high end. Maybe a Pro amp like a Crown will do. They're cheap.
@bdp24- Much of the venue ambiance info in your recording resides in in the lower few octaves. Use a Crown amp and you'll lose it. I've been using a slightly modded TransNova 9505, to drive my transmission line woofers, with excellent results in that regard.
That’s the kind of thing I’m wondering about Rodman. I have a PS Audio 200C that’s okay, but it’s "only" 200w/ch @ 8 ohms and 400 @ 4. I’ll try it first, but have been warned the Tympani’s can use and may require a lot more than that. Tympani aficionado Satie over at Planar Speaker Asylum uses a 2500w/ch @ 4 ohms (!) Crown on his (with a tube amp on the M/T panels), and says it sometimes clips! The bass panels will be used up to only about 250Hz, so I don’t need (or want to pay for!) great sound above bass frequencies. I’d love a Sanders amp, but don’t have an extra five grand laying around just for a woofer amp.
I haven’t heard the current Crown amps, or any since the DC-300/A and D-150, a long time ago. I know the Current Crowns aren’t audiophile approved, and for good reason. But why would a current one (no pun intended ;-) "lose" the low frequency ambiance in a recording?
@bdp24- I’m not crazy about typing, so I’ll try to keep this brief. Never having owned Tympanis, I’ve nothing concrete to offer there. I’m powering two SEAS L26ROY D1001s for bottom(X @ 250Hz/10th order), so the only commonality is a 4 Ohm/ch load. From some of your other posts, I’ve gathered you have a familiarity with live music in live venues and the sound. SS amps are generally good with initial transients and not as good with decay and bloom, until their prices/quality increase. Without getting into tube vs bi-polar vs MOS-FET, I’ve personally found the later to be a good compromise. The cues as to the volume and height of a recording space depend on an amp’s ability to convey each instrument’s sustain and decay, reverberating into that venue. I always recommended Crown(back in the day), for live reinforcement, do to their dependability/ruggedness and ambiance was(of course) generated within the venue. Regarding a current SS amp that won’t break the bank, Odyssey(as I mentioned earlier) offers some that would serve you well, probably better with their PS upgrades, given your need for juice. Don’t go too cheap and rob yourself of realism. btw: I often wonder about the power ratings stated by some manufacturers, not given in RMS.
@bdp24- @bdp24- Here’s an item of interest, if you can stand the fan noise or have a closet for isolation: (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAFLER-Pro-500-Power-Amplifier-Two-Channel-225-watts-per-channel-25062/17217...) I used a DH500 for bottom end, 20+ years, with great results. This one already has polypropylene caps, on it’s board. btw: Don't know if it will be an issue, but- most of your, "pro" amps will have XLR and 1/4" inputs, rather than RCAs. Not hard to modify, but good to be aware. I was glad my 9505 had all options
All right, thanks. I've done some more digging, and it looks like there are different levels of Crowns these days, with different designs, power supplies, etc. The fan noise the Pro amps are notorious for possessing would rule one out for me anyway, so I'll just hafta find a brute amp from a Hi-Fi company at a bargain price, something like a Parasound A21.
but I think the best route for you is very likely a class-D power amp - small size & most of them can output large wattages. Seeing a 500W/ch into 8 Ohms in a diminutive size is quite the norm these days. If you are looking for 2500W/ch into 4 like Satie has you are going to go broke if you try to get a class-A/class-AB amp. The only amps that i know of that output such large wattages are frightfully expensive (think Boulder, MBL, Rowland's new Daemon integrated, Gryphon).
Right you are Bombay, the high end powerhouse amps cost as much as my whole system. Plus, I really don’t need a well-rounded amp with great sound in all octaves (I have a real nice amp for the Tympani's M/T drivers), just a great low end brute---muscular and tight-assed! The DIY subwoofer crowd guys all use Pro amps, but they aren’t audiophiles, with our cultured, refined tastes, and discriminating audio palates ;-). Satie IS an audiophile (purist analog lover, with a tube amp on the M/T panels of his Tympani’s), and the Crown he has on his T-IV bass panels is the discontinued Macrotech 5002VZ. He advises against the cheap and popular XLS line, so maybe I can find a 5002VZ used.
Satie IS an audiophile (purist analog lover, with a tube amp on the M/T panels of his Tympani’s), and the Crown he has on his T-IV bass panels is the discontinued Macrotech 5002VZ.
ok. what did he do about the mismatched input sensitivity of the tube amp vs. the Crown? Or, are the input send of both amps the same or very similar so that they both output max power at about the same input voltage level? My understanding is that if the inp sensitivity of both amps is different you could end up with too little bass or too much bass....
Can’t speak for everyone that actively bi-amps, but- I’ve always used a crossover that enables me to adjust for disparities between amps. My first was one I built using DeCoursey boards(1980), for my home system. I ended up selling that whole system to one of my regular shoppe customers. Used a Dahlquist DQ-LP1(modded), for the next 25 years. I’ve had my TacT RCS 2.2Xaaa(modded) ever since. I loved the Dahlquist, but- the acoustic nightmare in which I'm now forced to listen REALLY requires me to use room correction.
Bombay, Satie uses resistors to correct for power amp voltage gain differences. I still have my Dahlquist DQ-LP1, which I use for the bass leg only. Brooks Berdan tried to get me to sell it to him for the longest time, but I knew I'd need it eventually.
FWIW, I have had my Odyssey Audio Stratos HT3 for just about 10 years now. When it was new, a capacitor failed, and it was repaired under warranty. However, I had to pay for the frieght (one way, IIRC), which for a 64 lb. amp is not insignificant. Since then, however, the amp has been trouble free. And I love the sound. If it holds up as long as I do, it will be my last amplifier. Just do not feel the need to move to anything better. As for the poster who implied that Odyssey amps sound "grainy", I respectfully disagree. The Odyssey amp I have is super smooth and clean. YMMV, and you are looking at a different model. But the Magtech is $5500. For $3400, you can have a pair of Odyssey’s best Stratos Monos. Less power than the Magtech, yes, but also less money!
Last weekend I attended THE Show Newport and happened to hear both Sanders and Odyssey room systems.
The Sanders was about what I'd heard from them before; detailed, articulate, balanced, a very musical presentation.
I don't know which Odyssey amps were playing with his other electronics and speakers. Klaus spent all his time talking about his component stand while I was in the room (a potential buyer was present). Then he played a jazz recording. The tenor sax was beautiful with great musical tonalities. But the acoustic bass was too dominant which resulted in an unbalanced presentation. Too bass heavy and forward. Of course it could have been poorly recorded. But then why would he choose to play that as a demo?
I had potential interest myself in Odyssey amps but if that example was representative of Klaus' preference and how he voices his components it would rule them out for me.
I've had no experience with Sanders, but I had Odyssey components. I did not care for the quality or the customer service at all. I like Parasound very much, I have an A21 but two JC mono amps would be keepers for sure. My two cents...
bondmanp, which speakers are you running them with? I have a HT-3 Extreme SE ++ and couldn't really tell an improvement when I moved to the Kismet in Stratos, but the Kismet in Stratos are several years older.
Satie IS an audiophile (purist analog lover, with a tube amp on the M/T
panels of his Tympani’s), and the Crown he has on his T-IV bass panels
is the discontinued Macrotech 5002VZ. He advises against the cheap and
popular XLS line, so maybe I can find a 5002VZ used.
thanks to you bdp24 for introducing me to these Crown amp. :-) I got a hold of 2 2402 models to use for my bass panels in parallel mono mode. I was advised to use the amp in parallel mono mode due to the speaker low impedance & that the amp was rated to drive this sort of low impedance in parallel mono mode only. In stereo mode (in another 8-ohm system) the amps sound very nice & seem to have very nice bass drive. Two things to watch out - these amps are very heavy. The 5002VZ that Satie uses is 80lbs atleast & the fan noise. One cannot operate them w/o the fan - it wont even turn on. They are pro amps hence the designers knew that people would kick the shi$ out of them hence have put many safeguards one of which is a continuous fan. At those stupid-high output powers it is required, I'm afraid. One has to come up with a plan to deal w/ fan noise. I'm working on mine....
My 3.7i came to life with the Sanders Magtech they were fine with my Plinius 9200, but at higher volumes the Sanders is effortless customer service is amazing in every way...just call his office or cell and he will pickup... My forever amp fwiw