Dear Mark (aka Asa),
I am terribly sorry if I’ve left you with an impression that I have a desire to go into discussion with you because I don’t have any, whatsoever. These days I discuss only with those I find intellectually stimulative and refreshing. Impolite quasi intellectuals and preachers that explode in vanity when touched in their aura as a boring stereotype don’t fit in there, sorry.
Best,
Sead |
Hi,
Me again_
“Caterham1700, I was wondering where those isolation shelves came from! Nice work. 47 labs had them all resting directly on the floor (no rack at all).”
I must admit that we were planning to use the rack_ Since it was late on delivery, by the time it arrived, we had things layered on the floor, as you could see it. We liked it and decided to keep it that way.
There were the cones underneath the shelves but, since there is a double layer of carpet in Kempinski, even the speaker spikes couldn’t reach down to the floor, I wonder if these coned had any positive effect. Nevertheless, Neuance has done a good job. Yeah, Ken was very specific about the placement but I took some liberty of judgment since I am reasonably familiar with Neuance from before, so who’s Ken Lyon to tell me how to use them_ ROTFL :-)))))))))
“Did you intend them to be used this way?”
If he hasn’t answered yet_ NO. On a hard floor_ YES.
“ Either: they have a very casual attitude towards resonance and vibration; or: they place absolute trust in your shelves.”
If nothing, we don’t have any sort of neglect nor casual attitude toward resonance and vibration. Perhaps some ideas we have may sound unusual, even heretic but mechanical aspects are among the first aspects of design behind 47Labs.
We, however, have a casual attitude toward the possibility of a sound achievement on the shows. I had great laugh looking some brands booking their rooms weeks in advance, bringing sound engineers, decorators and architects, trying to, by remodeling the rooms entirely, alter the acoustics, and still ending up with a pathetic results_ yet expensive one, that is for sure!
Absolute trust? Until I stepped in Kempinski, I didn’t have trust in myself, not to say Neuance. But, when we started the setup, in like two hours it took us to relatively satisfied go to the town for some fun, the trust was back. : - )
I was never shy over the fact that I like Neuance. It is a well thought of product that has proved itself in both show and home applications. So, it was me pushing Ken to send me these and not, as it usually goes, the other way round.
“They also had a very relaxed attitude about moving the STRATOS cables around.”
Why bother? It ain’t glass to break. ;-)))
“They continually moved one between the FLATFISH CD Player to the PITRACER CD Player without any noticeable signs of anxiety that this would jeapordize the sound of their display system.”
As I said in my other post, we were short with power supplies, so we had to share one DA converter between PiTracer and Flatfish. So, we had no option but to move the cable around. Really, we were not worried about breaking some molecular structures within. I leave this fear to those thinking they can do a policeman work within a cable and have particular electrons directed through some particular strands and some other very particular electrons directed through the other, now different strands_
“ As for the geometric arrangement of the cables, they did not twist the two cables around each another, but ran them parallel and adjoining with sharp bends to ensure a rectilinear cable infrastructure.”
Cable behavior is dependant on the arrangement but, in a well balanced setups no twisting we find necessary. It’s a complex issue and certainly exceeds the scope of this discussion.
“It was difficult to detect the type of movement-induced anomalies to the cables that have been referred to here since each move of the cable was continually accompanied by a change of component, and because the speaker system was limited low frequency, and also because they played recordings with limited bass _.”
I didn’t notice any particular bass specific selection of the music we’ve played. The speaker goes to a healthy 37 Hz so, why bother? We had some very bass demanding material on play, especially as we were gladly playing other people’s material. Playing low registers of an organ in such room would be a disaster to anyone at the show, not just us but, I would disagree over the complexity (dullness perhaps, lol) of the bass in Tracy Chapman or Peter Gabriel (synthesized bass) recordings. Nor I would say playing double bass on Oscar Peterson’s Live at the Blue Note is a sign of a deliberate avoiding of a bass heavy material. Or, and that is also possible, our understanding of bass differs. Or, Miles Davis “Tutu”_As the final argument, I would stress out that we were playing on numerous occasions a very famous speaker crusher, Rickie Lee Jones “Under the Boardwalk”. I would love to take this particular recording to someone else at that show and see if the setup would collapse in a physical sense under the same SPL we had it running smoothly.
“_and also because the listening session had to satisfy the demands of product exhibition for a large mass of people.”
Indeed, this is very much correct.
“Despite all that, I thoroughly enjoyed this system's lucidity.”
Thank you very much.
Best,
Sead |
Hi James,
»Hi sead, it would have been nice to talk to you at Frankfurt High End 2001, but I could not find you.«
I was there 90% of the time, the remaining 10% of the time I was out for business talks. The fact that my wife wasn’t there either at the time of your visit indicates the probability of your visit either on Friday morning/early afternoon (oh, well, she was spending money in shops downtown Frankfurt) or on Sunday when she went out to take a look on what is going on at the show, outside of our room.
»You have your headquarters in Sarajevo (correct?)_«
This would be very much of an overstatement to say headquarters but, yes, we have our office and a demo facility in Sarajevo.
»_.and there can be no doubt that to meet you among your equipment there, in the very place where your 47 Labs set-up was conceived and usually operates, would be an unforgettable experience.«
There is only one way to find it out..You are welcome anytime. :-)
»Probably not like meeting you at the Frankfurt trade fair--namely, to encounter an original, undeviating (despite the soldered speakers) audiophile amid this swirl of different sounds, "omnia sua secum portans," on the alert in the dull grey light of his room in the Kempinski. To be sure, the big audio show exhibit is not a format in which I might initially expect an understated, minimalist system--and one of the subtlest ones at the show--to reveal itself.«
You are right. It was hectic, many people coming and going, I even can imagine insulting some people by not providing as much attention to them as either their name/background/whatever suggests would be required, or simply some nice people I wish I had more time to spend with.
Soldered speakers_ Uh, huh, maybe someone can help here for me it is impossible to apply sufficient amount of pressure over relatively large surface of speaker connector pin for a good crimp connection. Better not to crimp than to do it badly. Besides, if I had more time, as usually do, my Jordan drives would end up (as they already have, just after Frankfurt_) without these pins completely_
»But to my ears the situation appeared differently. Your efforts brought the ideas behind the 47 Labs equipment into sharp focus for me. »
Thank you. These are really very kind words and they are a bold confirmation of what we try to do to have a sense.
»2. The use of the STRATOS wire as a power cable. I am glad I was correct here: chalk it up to my sharp eyes, and curiosity. The Frankfurt area has notoriously bad AC and I was curious how all of the exhibitors would handle that problem.«
Half of the outets in our room were out of function_ Fortunately the power cord we had was long enough, otherwise we would be in trouble of spending quite some time making new powercords. Good thing is that I never go without an extra reel of Storatos. Even better thing was that Teramura san's geniality anticipated the problem well in advance :)
» Please, do not take my words "casual attitude towards resonance" as a critique, but a hidden gloss. In the 47 Labs interview for "enjoythemusic.com" Junji Kumura offers an "alternative medicine" perspective on resonance: "We are not trying to control resonances... Instead of trying to kill off resonances by damping, we are trying to find a way to live with them." Koji Teramura added: "We can't stop the vibrations no matter what" I simply thought that the exhibit was an embodiment of these ideas. It seems once 47 Labs takes a particular direction, they follow it through as far as it goes with a certain resoluteness. This commitment to extremes (what else is it but dialectic and life's breath and passion?) can be seen in your cabling very clearly. Was it also in the shelving of your components, I wondered?
No, I don’t take your words as criticism at all. It is very important to stress out our position regarding vibrations and it’s a great thing that you are making reference to this Enjoy The Music interview as I see it as a document of particular importance, regardless of somewhat nonchalant atmosphere that this interview is wrapped in. It is a VERY important document for understanding of philosophy behind 47Labs and their products.
We don’t kill vibrations for a very simple reason as they can’t be killed throughout the spectrum equally thus every try results in some sort of imballance. Besides, killing resonances results in_. a silence. We want music. We will probably have a chance to meet and we can talk about only this aspect for hours.
It is very important, in our opinion, not to alter the resonance spectrum and to drain it as much integral as possible.
Shelving is always a compromise. There are two basic approaches and we agree with one school of thoughts and dissagree very much with the other. The one we agree with tries not to isolate units from vibrations but to try to enable fast energy transfer from the units through shelves to the ground (as the practically infinite energy storage, at least in respect to amount of energy we talk about here). We think that it is not possible to kill vibration in it’s entirety so, the cure is worse than illness and we certainly can’t agree with this type of thinking.
Ken Lyon is my very dear friend and we’ve spent hours and hours of talks on this subject and I am very glad that his philosophy is almost identical to mine. His immense empirical experience on the subject of audio applied mechanics has resulted in me pushing him back into production of almost forgotten (due to the wrong marketing) and now very much improved Neuance shelf. I only hope he won’t hate me for that but Neuance is an excellent shelf nevertheless and I am very glad that more people will have the chance to have it as a result of the new production.
» Restricted Low Frequency speakers and music. I simply was not in the room when any demanding bass recordings were played.«
Yups. Although, we’re not chasing after admiration over low registers of our setup, it happens that some music has bass as well. :))
»Big bass is not a big sonic priority for me anyhow. Nevertheless, I would have loved to have heard the Rickie Lee Jones "speaker crusher" you mentioned.«
Neither is for me. I don’t really appreciate these common but brutal surgical measures of majority of audiophiles resulting in cutting of the music into freq. range pieces. I prefer to look at things in their totality, when it comes to the music.
Rickie’s recording is a vinyl EP, I understand it is a rarity these days. I play it because I like it, not because it’s lethal.
»Scarcely any of the recordings I heard were ones that normally turn up in my listening room or ones that I am familiar with. But as I sat there listening to them in my armchair, hands busy scribbling in my notebook or clasped behind my neck (more often the latter), I was overtaken with admiration, It was fascinating to follow that vocal recording of "American Pie" in its undeviating clarity and closeness.«
Now I should be smart enough to say something_.
»Since the breaking-in of cables is lengthy, the involvement of many of the above posters with the 47 Labs OTA Kit seems to move in phases. (In and out of phase, as it were, ;-))«
That is a perfectly normal thing. We learn through all our lives, why audio would be an exception?
A friend of mine, also a 47Labs afficionado, when asked about the break in time for Gaincard uses to say: »To my knowledge, it takes two years, I will let you know how it goes further on_«
Okie, to make things easier for this »out of phase« fella, I must say that I was very much confused and stressed over the fact that there are Power Humpties and Power Dumpties and I was obsessed not to mix them up, to the point that I was marking what’s what. It took me more than two months to realise that they have entirely different connectors and that it was impossible to mix them, even by accident_
»I ventured to provide some poetry above for the close emotional involvement I felt for the music through the 47 Labs system as I think that everyone who becomes closely involved with 47 Labs equipment does not really go through phases, but a fundamental transformation of sonic and electronic priorities.«
I used to have a warning on my web site (oh, when will I find a time to redo this pathetic web page of mine?) about serious effects that listening to 47Labs may have on how one looks on music, audio, even life. I was not kidding at all!
Now, I would say that, with those who are of the sensibility that may percieve what we do, first contact with 47 is somewhat shocking but the profound feelings and sensation grow over time, together with the understanding of the concept and the rediscovery of one’s music collection. It would be reasonable to assume that I, being inside of this, already take it as is, without this new sensation but the real fun lies over the fact that this path we’re on brings new surprises, new excitements continuously and it’s the fun and a great privillege for me to be a part of it. Spending time with Kimura san and Teramura san in Frankfurt were THE most exciting moments of my audio carrier.
»They also get much closer to the pure affective experience of music, as I think Hazim indicates in his post. If any of my words are authentic, they owe this to the poetic and deliberate dialectical construction of the 47 Labs system you built for us in Frankfurt. Thanks.«
It is my privillege. I am delighted that there were so many people who’ve managed to understand the message we’ve tried to send out.
Best,
Sead |
Redkiwi,
Can it be that "fuller and richer" is actually "mellower"?
Multiple strands are the negation of the physichal principles 47Labs cables are based upon. Really, we are talking about a "time domain smear" and consequence to that is your initial provisory assessment of the multiple strand arrangement. I could bet that you will realize that it is not the way to have it after a while. But then, I don't mind people buying more cable. :-))))
....Just kidding....
Best,
Sead |
Asa,
The way I see it (forgive me my eventual ignorance that may result from the fact that I am not a native English speaker), you seem to be among the very few in this discussion enslaved by their own matrix, or better yet, the matrix of common mediocre thinking so much overly present in this hobby of ours today. In such case, implying others with some matrixes is.... well, hypocritical.
I know, it is hard to comprehend the logic behind it, it's price tag, it's simplicism and it's sound quality, especially considering the dogmatism of alike. It is perfectly ok and, fortunately, James can afford to have them both. Selling NBS Statement will not prove anything (okie, it would save him some $29.500 in total and would make his room visualy much nicer place to be in but that is not of relevance in this observation as even that would not prove if cable A is better than cable B if such thing as "better" by default exists at all). You may not be aware of it but just comparison of the two proves a lot, at least it does for me.
Best,
Sead
p.s. Do you prefer to value things by their weight or by the price? Or, perhaps by Stereophile rating?
...... I am kidding as I really could not care less which one of those you take as the most relevant criteria. :-)) |
James,
1.) oxidation on OTA, views?
It does oxidate, of course, at the ends. It is recommended to clean the ends every 4-6 months with either a specialized audiophile product for copper or just the plain baking soda. Some in excess of the cable just cut off the ends and terminate it again but in that case you should anticipate some extra lenght when making it. Baking soda is ok.
2.) Caig Pro Contact and OTA?
Not the gold one. Other one is fine.
3.) optimal contact surface area between OTA and the RCA input (reduce or increase, effect on sound, dekay please step in)?
Two twists are ok.
4.) OTA and XLR, balanced format (anybody try it)?
Haven't tried it.
5.) OTA and digital (again, dekay).
Yummy.
Best,
Sead |
Hi,
47Labs cable is not aged.
It's performance over time is comparable to other modern high quality cables, meaning that it will last without degradation pretty long but not forever as it is the case even with the cables their manufacturers may claim to be eternal.
Surprisingly for cable of this diameter, with insulation on, it is taking user brutality quite well, although I would not suggest really strong bending. I am telling this from experience as I do abuse it on a regular basis.
Cable burners will not damage it - I use it as mains cable (which doesn't mean that anyone should do the same!). Will cable burner make it sound better than when burned in with a real music signal is another issue.
It is a commercial product and, as such, it is continually produced. Of course, 47Labs can take it out of production if they desire to do so but to my knowledge, there are no plans that they could do something like that.
I've been using this cable for something like 3 years now and, except for the addition of blue translucent color, it has been consistent in production and quality.
On the user side, with exception of the slight fade of that blue color that occurs over time and a minor capilar oxidation close to cable ends, I have not noticed degradation in the performance of 3 years old cable compared to freshly burned in. Of course this period may not be sufficent time for a serious assessment of cable longevity but I hope to be around in years to come and I can report on how things are coming.
Best,
Sead |
Dekay,
»…. Once again, all of the posts failed at the "cross hole" section which is without a doubt a structural weakness in the design. I realize that tooling expenses are quite high, but would suggest eliminating the "cross hole" entirely and instead using an "outer ring", which would slip over the shaft, for this locking purpose, if retooling ever comes up.«
If I am picturing it right in my head, the outer ring can't make a solid spiral that would withstand even three unplugging, thus would make life even harder and the spiral pretty loose. The entire purpose of the cross hole is to ensure for a neat yet firm spiral.
Sure, this hole makes the plug less strong at this point but, nobody really thought of torsion force taking place there, and it should not be subject to torsion under the normal operation, therefore everyone should avoid twisting and rotating the shaft while plugged in, if nothing, it screws up the spiral aesthetics and also can lead to breakage of the wire. :-)
I hear you mentioning the heat and, that could explain it in your case. Heat, plus a bit of a twist and off the plug goes. Really, to my knowledge, you are the first one to break it… :-(
»This should not effect the sound (it may even improve it as it would eliminate the haphazard "loop" which most likely occurs when threading the wire through the "cross hole")….«
Theoretically, yes. Practically, I am not sure as the loop is there also in the signal return plug and I am failing to find something sonically wrong here. It sure would make things stronger but I really have no negative experience with this.
»As far as Matching RCA's with the OTA counterpart, I have never seen the "strip" example….«
Theta had these on some equipment, Marantz has them and lots of others do as well. Hm, maybe I have not found the right word, that is also possible (but I think you know what I mean anyway). Again, this means nothing in terms of quality of a connector.
»On another note, someone once mentioned to me that OTA "banana" plugs (for attaching the cable to speakers) would be an interesting addition to the kit….«
Banana plug makes a subtle but noticeable improvement in terms of further reduction of sonic glare and even better palpability. That is, in speakers that have standard banana binding posts. I think the reason bananas are not part of the OTA kit in US is the fact that most of customers wants to use the kit in the most rational way, thus replacing bananas in favour of two additional RCA plugs (to make for 3 sets of interconnects) should be looked at in this sense. In Europe, we normally supply bananas with the kit but we have two RCA connectors less in the kit.
I dunno if Ivo is following the discussion but he may be able to fill in with his impressions about bananas, as he has done a thorough testing with and without. Also, after some burn in time, I hope that James will share his impressions with us as well, since he's got bananas in with his kit.
The best thing, however, is to avoid 5 way binding posts in general as it presents (IMO, as I don't want to get into discussion with anyone dissagreeing on this) such a waste of material in order to fascinate an average consumer.
»I will add that I have probably installed/uninstalled the connectors a great deal more than what I would consider the "norm" ….«
It should be no big deal to have the broken ones replaced.
»I do not wish to detract from what I consider to be a truly high end but affordable (to many of us) product, …«
No need to mention this. I uderstand perfectly well.
»Good to see you back in the forums again.«
Thanks.
Best regards,
Sead |
WBT, Cardas and similar RCA conenctors are exactly what 47Labs has tried to avoid with their delrin RCA connectors. For us it is clear that excessive metal used for a "solid construction" has very little to do with good and fast transient response due to susceptability to RFI and EMI interferences. Not to mention soldering as a thing one would like to avoid whenever possible... You should look at 47Labs RCA connector as if there were no connector at all and, if absolutely have to compromise, compromise it the most rational way. At the end, some of these connectors are considerably more expensive than 47Labs ones so there is not even the advantage of cost cutting... If forced to a compromise, I would use cheap plastic connectors as the ones used with DNM cables.
Best regards,
Sead |
Slawney,
I agree with you that OTA can be tricky in a phono cable and that using an additional shielding can be a value added. My findings also correspond to yours in respect of the lenght being an important factor when used as phono cable. In my particular case, I am using it in a shortish run (50cm) and without shielding.
Actually, Kimura was surprised when he heard that I am using it as a phono cable as well as it was not the original intention for this cable. Only better solution I heard so far in my setup was the integral run of wire from cart to PhonoCube (with part going out from tonearm being shielded), but for reasons of me a) changing wiring of my tonearms (other than under b) frequently b)modified Koshin 801 I am using at the moment would not allow for a rewire (well, maybe it would but it is a brand new one and I would hate to mess around it as yet). Besides, I just love it as is. :-)
Fortunately (otherwise it would not make any sense to discuss this cable as anything even worth mentioning and not something extraordinary) these occurences are not present when used as digital, linelevel interconect nor as a speaker cable. Actually, (although I have not used specifically Shun Mook shielding), my experiences with shielded OTA in a non-phono cabling are not very positive.
Have you tried it yet in your digital setup or between preamp and your VAIC's and/or speakers?
Best regards,
Sead
p.s. Did you get my mails? I sent them from 3 accounts, just in case. :-) |
Please, don't use OTA from cartridge to phono stage!
My mention of this scenario was not in the reference of OTA but a dedicated armwire.
Sead
p.s. Will write more but just got back from a trip and noticed this which, IMO was something that needed an immediate comment. |
»In short, let me just say that I was shocked that Storatos could function as such an excellent power cable for these power-hungry units, fast enough to cover their sudden demands in energy. »
Slawney, you are continuosly surprising me with your pioneer spirit!
Franky, I would say feeding you VAIC with mains from tiny 47Labs cable is an overkill. I wouldn't dare even try that! Well, I couldn't sleep the first night I had my low power consumer setup hooked on it but I think I told you about that.
Why did you need 20ft power cables? You had them hooked to the mains in the other room?
»There are lots of metal parts in every stock IEC and PC plug I have examined: mainly screws for the wires, wire guides, and lead systems for + - and ground. These can be a problem if you want to minimize intermediary connections between Storatos and your house mains cables or the hook-up wires to your components transformers.«
No problem at all! Just throw away ALL the metal not strictly related to contact making. You can glue back IEC and PC plugs instead of screwing them back with metal screw. From an ordinary PC plug and three IEC connectors I usually end up with fistfull of pieces I put into dump.
»If you plan on using an AC plug, try to find one with solid copper prongs (German high-end manufacturer "Phonosophie" provides copper tip plugs for the Schucko system).«
Did I tell you that one? Actually, I didn't know about that one but when talking on the subject with Jonathan Carr, he raised my attention to this product.
»If your house has Schucko outlets (i.e. you live in Europe), you can also use two 47 Labs speaker banana plugs as AC plug prongs and make a direct contact between Storatos and your house mains this way. (BE VERY CAREFUL TO AVOID SHOCK!) »
In all seriousness, that is something I would not like people start doing… Are the extra bananas you ordered last time for that? If so, good I didn't have them in stock… Forget about getting them, unless using them for speakers, hehe. I intend to see you in May and not to bring flowers to your tombstone.
»As for the other side of the Storatos power cable, I have used both light-weight PVC and rubber IEC female plugs (I actually prefer the cheaper PVC variety).«
I agree that PVC should be better. What counts here is, of course the conducting material. Copper, then brass, then rhodium would come on my list. Nothing else. No plating.
»One important tip: Do not simply crush the bare Storatos wire under the screw clamp!«
A very easy thing to do…
» Instead wrap the bare Storatos around the IEC "U" brackets/guide (leaving enough Storatos insulator stripped away to allow the male IEC prongs to fit fully into the female "U" receptables) so that the male IEC will make direct contact with the Storatos wire. Affix Storatos in the IEC by screwing down on the beginning of the insulated portion, being careful not to break or strain the wire inside.«
This one is tricky and I sense problems with this arrangement (as in most cases, a good contact will remain to be desired, if not done right).
»As far as defeating the third (center, ground) prong…«
I checked mine and haven't seen any center prongs left, hehe.
»… on the ac line-cord by removing it, I will leave a few warnings. This third prong provides a ground connection, which not only helps prevent pickup of RF interference but prevents possible damage to components. This ground return is legally required by Underwriter's Laboratories, a branch of the National Board of Fire Underwriters (in the USA) and by EU regulations (in Europe). Not only can some equipment get damaged by removing the ground, but a fire hazard can be introduced. If your house burns down and the investigation of the remains reveals that you were operating equipment without grounds connection, your insurance company is not liable to pay any of your claims.«
Which, I think, probably is the case if used power cables of lesser diameter than required by the power rating of the appliance… It's a slippery territory we are talking about here and I can not recommend to anyone to make power cables from Storatos.
But, if you do….
Why bother with multiple cables? That leaves you with problems.
Why not use one PC plug and run multiple IEC's out of it?
So, you need three power cords, for example… Take 6 runs (9 runs if intending to keep the grounding), mark three of them (and onother three for grounds, yet in another color) at cable ends on both sides. On one side, wrap threes of the same color together and fit them into PC plug.
Other sides of cable, one of each color go to IEC plug, making sure to fit each of them to IEC on the same place (if wire colored red is in one IEC connector on the left side, it should be on the left side in the other two IEC plugs as well. If using ground, wires colored as ground MUST go to IEC grounds, of course. This is valid for Shucko mains plugs system where PC plug can be plugged two ways to match required polarity. For UK, one must make sure that Live comes to the right side of IEC plug, looking at IEC conenctor from the front side, flat side down…
This way, you can be sure that each of your components has exactly the same polarity orientation, no need for extension cord (so you want to make it long enough to reach the wall plug), less metal, etc…
»Note that it is no advantage to shield Storatos ac power cables.«
Very much agreed.
Best regards,
Sead |
"I tried ferrite magnets a year or so ago with various cables (not the OTA) and found them to supress the HF's (less noise, but also less music)."
Same here... I was trying various ferrites for years and never have gained results I was hoping for. I have them now attached to various appliances all over the place but none in my setup. YMMV. |
Asa: The reason I addressed you the first time, whenever that was is that I felt you were here to patronize and not to bring a constructive contribution on the very subject of the topic. This you have proved yourself to be true beyond any reasonable doubt. We could have discussed NBS, we could have discussed Kondo (for which I have great respect btw) but we never could discuss OTA for a simple reason of you not having a clue of the product and that was the topic (to which I have tried to remind you on several ocassions). And, you wanted me to give you arguments against your hallucination (dunno what else could it be...). No way. So you got insulted... As I was when you first started name calling with " Sead don't be horse's ass". You may have selective memory but you were the one who started with insults and I certainly hope my provocations were never as hillbillish as you indeed acted. And, yes, I knew about your involvement with NBS from the beginning but I didn't feel like discrediting you. This may be a personal thing for you, but then, you must have seen too many gladiator movies... Audio is a hobby for me, more than anything else. Rational people don't kill each other over a hobby.
My intention was never to leave such a deep mark on your emotions.... Scares me even to think of what would happen if I was seriously attacking you and not kidding with you.... Btw, out of the personal interest, if I would ask you to send me one of your novels to read it, would you? I guess you would not. See, that is where we differ... Besides, of course, that I like to joke and you don't. I wish you prove me wrong on the last two assumptions.
Ah, I kinda find that "Er, cheers" cute.
Bwhite: Yes, sadly, I knew you would get insulted with my last post. Unfortunately. This has become a vanity fair, otherwise you would read my post in different eyes (maybe your own, for a change?) and not come with yet more sarcasm toward Ivo ("Who is he?"..... well, who are you for that matter, who is anyone?). Again, I tell you and you may call it deffensive from my side, it is perfecly great thing that you find your cabling arrangement suits better your setup than OTA, which was originally designed and intended for 47Labs setup and it comes as a surprise to me, believe it or not, that it works in other setups at all.
To clear something out: My involvement with 47Labs as their European distributor was always very open and clear, althought my posting here is of a strictly private nature, and to stop you wondering about my interest in the subject, I will openly call upon everyone who has bought OTA cable in Europe as a consequence of this thread to stand up and say it loud. If anyone, except for Ivo (who was using OTA before either one of you in here knew it existed) and Slawney (who was sold PhonoCube in agreement with local dealer but supplied directly by myself for reasons beyond your interest, but quite benign) shows up, that will really be a proof of my interest in this thread other than a personal, plain audiophile joe interest to help out with some experience on topic called by someone else. If there will be nobody to say it, I will kindly ask you to stop with this dealer crap. This forum is dominantly an US affair and my affiliation with 47Labs stops on the shores of Atlantic as I am not at all involved with 47Labs operations in US of A. Or, if I have even oferred to sell anything to anyone who has participated to this thread up to this point, please say it loud and clear, otherwise shut up. I don't sell things here, I don't buy things here.... So, please, what my interest in Audiogon or in anyone in here liking OTA or not could be other than a simple passtime? Good thing is summer is coming and I will be playing tennis much more than wasting time on the net....
Of course, I am very much interested that 47Labs customers in Europe are pleased with their products and our dealers but that kind of correspondence I would never allow to become a public affair unless clients themselves feels like disclosing it. Customer support of Konus Audio Systems is something entirely different. The fact that Sead Lejlic as a private person discusses music, audio and yes, 47Labs things with people that are not even potentially customers from Europe obviously has a confusing effect on a $$$ orriented mind. Surprisingly, there are cultures in the world which are less materialistic oriented than yours and where not just about everyone you talk to is trying to sell you something and where you don't have to make appointment to your wife and your friends for some "social interference".
Slawney: No need to get cought into crossfire non-productive (except for lingual exhibitions) argues. Perhaps you are right, in real life we probably would all get fine together over a pint of lager but people get matchbox flammable on the net. Nothing new. I just enjoy exploring this aspect of human behaviour (well, Asa may be brilliant in his English usage but certainly is a dilletant in psychology, plain boring to argue with and I hope getting along with him is more fun?). :-)
Cheers,
Sead
p.s. If a further desire exists to continue with the pissing contest of a personal nature, you are welcome but in the next two, three weeks I will be away. Besides, it is boring.... |
Sorry for keeping out of discussion for so long, been quite busy lately. Hope everyone is doing fine?
Bwhite: Why the sarcasm? So, you have some expensive amps, do we need to establish you as a god or something? Don't take it personally, Ivo did not mean to offend you, he's too nice a guy for that. Besides, you better should hear his setup before jumping on... I am sure you would get an idea or two about setup sinergy after hearing it.
Nobody said OTA is the best cable in the Universe and it is quite normal that there may be setups in which other cables may work better or better suit owners preferences. Even if look at the NBS line, there are some cheaper models that suit some very expensive setups better than the Statement.
I find quite odd the remark you made: "It seems a little too fast to be accurate...". The way I see it, there is no such thing as too fast, only what I've seen so many times is too slow. But, I can accept that slower cables may appeal to certain audiophiles. For me, faster is more accurate as it enables better reproduction of high order harmonics. If that is achived over the complete audible freq. range and not to introduce the time domain smear in ref .to the freq. range through the variance in impedance, then it is a full score.
Slawney: looking forward seeing you in Frankfurt. I am coming on May 7th. You know the hotel we are staying at.
Dekay: I wish you the fast return to work and let us know how long run of OTA works. I wouldn't be overly optimistic but then, it may work... Haven't tried it as I keep runs always as short as possible, longest I tried was 3m but that was in the show. Normally, I use 2m for speakers and rarely longer IC than 0.7m.
Asa: ... nothing for you this time... I see you are quite happy not everyone like the cable you haven't even heard (which, of course didn't prevent you from disqualifying it automatically). I always like to see people happy. :-)
To all those who like and use OTA: Try to keep the cables off the floor, in the air. You may use fishing line or some cable elevators. No need for fancy stuff, just something non-metallic to keep the cable in the air. Fishing line is even better, hung from the ceiling, gets closer to the real air floating which would be the ideal position for OTA (as for any other cable).
To those who doesn't like OTA: cheer up, it is not the end of the world.
Cheers,
Sead |
Dear Ken,
I will have to dissapoint you - I couldn't make the functional and long lasting crimping in this particular application so, yes, I've betrayed my personal preferences by soldering Storatos to the speaker drivers.
Best,
Sead
p.s. uh, how could you have time for e-mail when your're posting so much... |
Hi Kitch29,
"And those guys at the Frankfort show used it for power cord?"
Yes, we did, we do and we will. :-))
"It doesn't seem like it would be possible to tightly twist the OTA but I thought someone might like to try this configuration."
Neither it is possible nor would I recommend tight twisting OTA. We deal with RF where it makes the most sense in our opinion - by getting off the excessive metal. Tight twisting and whatever may work with some other cables (stranded ones in particular), not with this one. Some loose twisting may be advised in less than perfectly balanced setups, otherwise, "just let it flow".
Best,
Sead |
Hi James,
Thank you for the kind words. This is probably my first post on a public forum in more than a year.
Since I was hoping to meet you, I wish you'd raised my attention by making the reference to our earlier correspondence. It was chaos in there as you could see but regardless...
»At the High End 2001 Trade Fair in Frankfurt last week, three wise, attentive and artistic engineers from 47 Labs proudly displayed their System, trying to leap gracefully over the very tall linguistic barrier between them and the German audiophiles asking about "those cables."«
Well, there was only one engineer, really, Kimura san. Other members of the crew were Teramura san, Sead san, Buba san (funny I didn’t know Japanese address female with san as well) and Ichihara san (Kimura san's friend, not into music and audio but a nice guy nevertheless!). We were missing Yoshi san but he couldn't make it to Frankfurt this time. He was there with us spiritualy, so it's ok. :-))
Oh, yeah, it was a great fun, really! We had many people coming in for few times in disbelief that we actually use the VERY SAME wire from the mains outlet to the speaker drivers.
»When, all of a sudden, Slawney noticed in cold sweat what was connected to the 4 Power Dumpties (the high capacity transformers feeding all of their components)! Well, they were all connected in parallel to a single plastic AC plug (German wall outlet) with very thin fishing-line wire that looked very similar to the STRATOS wire 47 Labs were using on all of their components (maybe the Power Cord wire was a little thicker than 0.4mm OFC interconnect and speaker wire, but not by much).«
We were short with power supplies so we had to improvize with only four of them. PiTracer takes two power supplies.
Please, the wire you’ve seen that we were using as power wire IS 47Labs Storatos cable, not thinner nor thicker than 0.4mm OFC solid core copper we use for everything else.
Very nice touch was the fact that this power cable is arranged in a bouquet arrangement, reducing the number of power connectors, thus reducing quantity of metal as well. Not to mention the convinience of not having to check all the cable polarity once one of them is set right, no need for extension cords etc.
»I know that the KIT says about the Stratos wire: "do not use them as power cords!"«
And, I will repeat the warning. Reason for this is very pragmatic in many countries it is illegal to have electric appliances connected without ground and/or with such thin cable diameter and/or with the level of insulation that Storatos cable provides. So, we wouldn’t stimulate our customers to break the rules and/or safety regulations in any way. No, we’re not crazy to kill ourselves by using Storatos as power cable but certain precautions are necessary.
I was very precise in Frankfurt explaining to the visitors that we do think it is sonically beneficial to use this wire as power cable as well, however that using it presents a clear break of safety regulations that are in power in Germany.
» This system was the most jaw-dropping demonstration of the effects of bare-essentials component parts, short signal paths, and minimalist cabling I have ever experienced!«
Thank you very much. I take it as a personal compliment as I was the one who made a risky decission about the setup (bringing some unheard of speakers to a setup that aspires for a high acceptance level on a show is was a VERY risky thing). Btw, what was seen in Frankfurt is my personal setup (except for the turntable which was too complicated for me to carry and Willy Bauer was kind to land us one of his nice DPT decks). Just, it all sounds MUCh better in my demo room as it doesn't have such dissasterous acoustics.
»It compelled me to adopt a new mode of understanding and experience. (So here comes the poetry.) Every event in the music communicated itself to me with supreme intelligibility--a system internally and externally illuminated and inflamed by the music itself!«
Can we discuss the copyrigh of these words? I find this as one of the most inspired compliments I read on 47Labs.
»And what WERE these speakers I was listening to? Three-way speakers with gigantic active sub-woofers! Just kidding. It was just a plain, single tiny 6" Jordan driver in a wood tombstone with no binding posts, the STRATOS going directly into the cabinet to the speaker itself.«
Many people were very seriously asking us to disclose where we had subwofers hidden in the room....
I particularly enjoyed drilling the cabinets with a very thin drill, knowing it would just have to let in the cable and not to fit binding posts (I hate these shiny interference antennas!). Unfortunately, unless specifically requested, retail version will have some binding posts. We still haven’t figured out the ones small enough_ Probably will use something similar to what Gaincard has_ just plain screws.
Best,
Sead |
Mark,
Gentle crimping isn't usually a good idea. Unless you can make a really good crimping connection, you better solder (and this comes from someone who hates solder). Good pressure is needed to keep the air off the contact.
Thank you for your kind words. Making condoms? That certainly is an idea to consider :-)))
Best,
Sead |
Hi,
4708 OTA is too thick and too inflexible for internal tonearm rewire. Eh, I wish it could run from cart to phono preamp... :-)
My suggestion would be either to get a single run of a good tonearm wire and have it run all the way to phono preamp from the cart or to use the tonearm wire through armtube and to have OTA take the rest of the way from the arm to the preamp. If so, particularly if using LP12, make sure to have the wires together with some plastic string as it will make the P-clip dressing much more comfortable experience.
Best,
Sead |
Hi Ivo,
I thought you went for vacation?
Funny, we live like two blocks away from each other and we meet here. :-))
My point was that Gaincard will work with other cables as well. Possibility is that most of these cables may do injustice to it but I have no problem with that, as long as Gaincard is not accused for revealing some nastiness in the rest of the setup (and funny how people easily jump on accusing Gaincard - if revealing is the crime, yeah, let someone bring the rope, the bastard amp must hang! Dunno, must be something in the size of it... and they say size doesn't matter... hmm.)
Now, having lots of people using OTA these days in non-47Labs setups, it is kind of unusual to look for something else for Gaincard. Still, we both remember well that you were not unhappy initially using Yamamura as IC with Gaincard and that it took me quite some time until I had you let 47 cable properly burn in and realise its full potential as IC.
Best,
Sead
p.s. One of my former dealers used to hold a weight on Gaincard, claiming it sounded better taht way. I really couldn't do anything about it.... except to take him off the dealers list. :-) |
No, Gaincard doesn't have to be used with 4708 OTA Cable kit. I think this became obvious for everyone glancing through numerous reviews where reviewers wouldn't use it even if strongly suggested as a far better solution from what they've been using.
What you have to take care about when using other cables is:
- you can't have bannana speaker connectors connected to gaincard's output terminals. Spades are ok, although some of those monster spades tend to ask for a wider head screw as replacement for the stock ones.
- female RCA connectors on all of 47Labs gear are gentle. As with other gentle things in life, you don't treat them with a brute force. overtightening of the macho-type male connectors may damage chasis RCA connectors. btw, they are made that way on purpose.
- very thick and heavy cables can affect mechanical properties of the Gaincard (and they are important for the sound!)
I can see no reason for having S version connected with Coincident speakers. What I would do, if I were you is to go back and have a listen of:
a) 25w Gaincard and two 25w Power Humpty
b) 25w Gaincard and ONE 50w Power Humpty
You may end up with a better result and some money left in your pocket.
As a starting point, my advice would be to stick to 4708 OTA Kit and only after growing up with Gaincard for a while to investigate other cable options. Or, alternatively, just keep the cables you have (unless they are really completely incompatible ones) and look for new cables after a few months. By no mean it is carved in stone that everyone must use 47Labs cables. Some of us just like them.
Best regards,
Sead |
How to kill a web forum discussion?
1. Ignore the poster who initiated it. Especially if he has a very precise question targeted at a particular group of people. (How does he dare? Who does he think he is? I will teach him some respect. Oh mama, I am soooo kewl).
2. Ignore the warnings of the forum administrators to keep your replies to the subject of the thread. (What does these pathetic creatures know? Are they nuts? I will write what I want when I want. Mama, mama, I am soooo strong)
3. Don’t keep it on the subject. Be creative, impose your own. (You guys know nothing. I will teach you. Boy, am I smart or am I smart)
4. Insult. As much and as often. It will raise your popularity. After all, you are powerful, knowledgeable and …. handsome. (Hey I am a well known and respected member of readers letters column in TAS and Ultimate Audio, not to mention my subscription to Stereophile. I’ve managed to buy out 10% of the magazine circulation, so I have lots of arguments in hardcopy. It was expensive but it was worth it, I can tell you)
5. Troll. Often. After all, administrators will not dare to touch you. You are the untouchable one. (mama, look I am getting the wings)
6. Be democratic – kill anyone who would even consider not agreeing with you. (yes, I am righteous)
7. Treat those you like with passion – approach them in a diminishing manner. Don’t they know they are there because of me? (mama, look at my body – I am a walking sculpture)
8. Lie. Even better if you get it on a personal level. Make promises you have no intention to keep. Show off with powers you don’t possess. That will mask your obvious commercial interests that you have.
9. Tell everyone how smart you are. Some may buy it. The rest will get angry but considering your general powers, you shouldn’t care. (mama, I am sooo good looking)
10. Attack before being attacked. Send threatening e-mails to everyone who would even dare to say a word. (someone’s got to teach you lessons, you…you… you….)
11. If someone asks you something, just anything, ignore him. Tell people about your new flashy preamplifier. (you pathetic loosers will never have my new flashy preamplifier)
12. Numerous aliases come handy when you need someone to support your thoughts. Who could understand you better than yourself? Who loves you more than yourself? So, use many names, the more the better.
13. Use other people’s arguments as your own. Confuse the opponent. Let them think you are stupid. You know you are the smartest thing. Not to mention how handsome you are. You are the babe and don’t let anyone question that. |
I will try to comment on the recent posts in one, just to save the bandwith, if you don't mind.
»… if Stratos is just OFC, that any other decent OFC from a reputable supplier, cannot be used in its place?«
Justin, nobody said other cable can't be used instead of Stratos. It is a matter of preference and majority seems just to like it better than other variants of the same type of cable.
»Is it cold-treated, annelaed in some way, a mono-crystal filament, or an alloy of some kind?«
Of course it is cold treated and of course it is mono-crystal, I could not imagine a good cable done other way. It is also natural that it has been annleaded through a process that makes it OFC (there are different levels of purity as you know). It is also very important to stress out that it is not just lead that makes impurities in copper. Quite often, one of the impurities in copper are gold and ferrite. Could be some more but these greatly affect the color of copper as well as they increase the elasticity of copper. Have you noticed how brittle OFC copper is?
No alloy. It would negate the whole purpose of getting copper as impurity free as possible. A tiny portion of brass maybe wouldn't be a bad thing, just as a spice, hehehe. No, I don't think there is anything but copper in there. I have not done any spectrometric observation that could scientifically backup my claim but I have no intention whatsoever of looking into the subject from the scientific point of view (I am not a scientist and besides that I only care how it sounds, not breaking my head too much over too many why – I have realised long time ago that we are just tapping the surface of the great sea…)
»Has it secretly been treated with C37 lacquer or some such potion?«
No, I can assure you that we don't treat our shelf and/or demo products chemically or in any other way.
That doesn't mean we don't have our little secrets but none of them, again, are not applied as a treatment to freshly made products.
47Labs, however, has a product that is marketed in Japan only due to it's high price for an accessory (originally it was intended for dealers) and that thing does demagnetizing of different »things« on a permanent basis (records, CD's, cables, turntable parts etc). Anything that fits in there goes and makes quite some difference as I have been told – I have not tried it yet but I hope to when the finances allow.
Also, it is a matter of a culture and prestige among artisans in Japan and each of them has some secret potion. 47Labs is no excuse to it but, again, it is something strictly for a personal use, none of the dealers have even heard or seen this thing. Well, even I have only found out about it when I got a small bottle as a personal gift, not before.
»Thanks for your reply Sead. I hope everyone's differences can be resolved soon (or better still, put to bed), so more useful discussion can take place.«
Differences are ok. If we all would agree on everything, this world would be a boring place to live in.
***********
»What is C37 lacquer, as opposed to other lacquer?«
Asa, there are many, many kinds of lacquer receipes known (or better yet, kept as very important secrets) throughout the history. Even now, experts can only guess the exact proportions used by the old violin makers or by the famous piano makers, also the ways of application etc. Too much unknown.
C37 is some kind of modern receipe only today Enemmoser got the marketing idea that was unknown in the 18th and 19th century – not to use it for a product but to make it the product as such. Coming from Vienna where the tradition of lacquer receipe making is a »national sport«, it must be that he had great fun exploring on how to make it. I have my guesses on basic elements used for C37 but I would rather avoid speculating. In any case, the additions to lacquer affect the mechanical characteristics after and during the drying process and all the way through aging of it.
So, lacquer per se is just a lacquer. Okie, there are several kinds of it but nevertheless. What you add to it, how you apply it, how many layers you apply (and their interaction indicates the need for different thickness and application method as well) makes hell of a difference. It is a painfull process but since I have tried to mimic instrument making proces opposed to just a design of a speaker in my Essence speaker I simply had to do some experimenting and to try to dig deeper into different kinds of lacquers. By no means I imply that I have achieved anything important, yet the approach has a certain positive offset from the traditional way of thinking about speakers.
»AudioNote Kondo also uses a similar lacquering process on their similarly thin conductor, bare wire term'd speaker cables -a procedure they call "tinning", applied in seven coats - and many of the observations here of the Sakura wire are very similar to my own reactions to the AudioNote stuff. My understanding from AudioNote is that this lacquering process is critical to the sound of the wire relative to issues of wire composition or configuration. Connection?«
There is a connection. Not in the lacquer but the in the understanding of the fact that dielectric (and it's mechanical interaction with conductor) is as important as the conducting material in a cable. Material used as dielectric in Stratos has as we call it »self-lubricating« characteristics, thus there is no need to treat it in some special way – dielectric itself does the thing.
Btw, the cable in question is 47Laboratory cable. Sakura Systems is 47Labs distributor in US of A. I know, 47Labs sounds so… western… and Sakura sounds so… eastern.
******
»I recently received the Super Cables Cookbook from Vacuum State Electronics, in which Allen mentions that he now instinctively reaches for C37 lacquer when finishing his cables. In fact, a colleague of mine in the UK-based Audiocircle has mentioned that, in preference to foil designs, he was to try ultra-thin cable with this type of lacquer.«
Say hello to Allen from me. He is quite a nice guy.
Speaking of ultra-thin cables, I still have not found the wire for my tonearm that I would say »yeah, that's it«. Any suggestions for a tryout?
»As I write this, things are starting to click into place ... 'Chemical X' (thankyou Dexter) is appearing slowly out of the fog of my ignorance. If sound can be considered (in electronics) a type of electrical shockwave why not tune it in the way master luthiers did in days gone by?«
This electrical has also a mechanical aspect to it. So, yes, I say, let's tune it into some music. :-)
Cheers,
Sead
p.s. Justin how have you been? Haven't hear from you in ages. How is London? |
Trelja,
I feel the need to thank you for participating in the discussion on lacquers. I think it is a valuable contribution.
Listening to you speaking is almost like listening to my lacquer specialist and I mean it in a very positive way as this guy is an old and very experienced "wolf".
On the negative side, I feel the same professional “one applies to all” approach, disregard to audio being a rather peculiar and specific application. At least that was the problem that I had with my people until I managed to sat them down and offer them to actually hear (and not just see, what was their professional focus throughout their complete careers) the differences in variances of their own work.
Of course there is a lot of marketing rubbish (like in every other aspect of life) but the fact remains, at least in my personal experience, that lacquer has a strong importance on sonic behaviour of a product (in this particular case, loudspeaker). I am not an expert on lacquers and my findings are strictly limited to the empirical auditive conclusions that were drawn from different samples prepared by those knowledgeable on the subject on my request for specific samples.
It is interesting that (and I guess that corresponds to your statement) certain additives in recipes affect the visual appeal more than sonics yet the technique applied and number of layers (viscosity of each; thickness; application; drying method and some other) do have a strong impact on the mechanical (thus auditive as a logical consequence to the resonant) characteristics of the "coating".
Some additives can affect the dielectric characteristics of a lacquer but there I really don't have sufficient experience to discuss on the subject.
In any case, we are talking nuances here (rubbish speakers remain rubbish, regardless) but nuances make the accountable difference. Not to be mistaken - some nuances human ear and brain can perceive with more precision than the most sophisticated measuring equipment.
Best,
Sead |
Sorry for the lack of contribution to the discussion for some time but it was impossible for me due to an increased workload.
To understand why there might be problem with making contact, one must look into the design of female RCA connectors (the ones on the chasis), particularly the inner, signal "lip" that makes contact.
Some female RCA connectors have round lips that make full 360 degree contact. With these an OTA RCA will make an instant contact however you plug it in. 47Labs chasis RCA connectors are made this way.
Other types may have either single or double "strip" contact surface and with these, you need to align the spiral that you make with OTA cable bare ends over the plug that cable makes contact to it. Sometimes several tries may be needed but once you have the contact, problem solved. With ground cable plugs in place, it should be safe to make this adjustment with gear turned on (volume on lower value, however, is better). If no contact, unplug completely the signal only plug, rotate a bit and plug in again, repeating this until there is a solid contact.
These differences in construction does not mean that one female RCA connector is better than the other.
I am confused, however, how Dekay has managed to break even five of inner plugs (Dekay, if that means anything, I think I have one extra and could send to you, for more I would have to ask Japan)... Delrin is pretty elastic material.
Ultrakaz, your friend is right about Delrin static properties but that is only one part of the story about this material and why it is used in this design - on the other hand, your friend is wrong if he says OTA is a telephone cable. It's starting design premisse was based on a telephone cable design and that is where the similarity ends.
Best,
Sead |
"Sead: "Please, don't use OTA from cartridge to phono stage!" Sead, I hope you spend a little time discussing what makes this prohibition necessary. There is something mysterious here..."
Slawney, nothing mysterious, simply OTA is too rigid not to mess up with the designed movement of the tonearm and can lead into a serious damage to the cartridge as a medium term effect. Very simple. Even if you spiral it, put it any way you want it, it will still affect the bearing movement (or/and azimuth with unipivot tonearms), not to mention the antiskating adjustment. Btw is absolutely right. Even "not seriously affect" is a serious thing in the game of small figures as they are in the arm/cart game. My guess is that even if OTA would be 0.1mm instead of 0.4mm it would still be too much of spring effect introduced for a solid core cable. If you want to get rid of your cartridge, I can think of several less painfull ways. :-)
"For deoxidation/desulfidization the technical sprays from CRC (by which I mean Kontakt 60 and Kontakt 61) have worked wonderfully with OTA, and exhibit only minimal detrimental effect on sound. BTW, CRC puts out alot of other technical sprays: Kontakt WL, Kälte 75 Super, Kontaflon 85, Drückluft 67 plus, Video 90, Tuner 600, Sprühöl 88, Screen 99, Antistatik 100, Etikette LX, and Reiniger 601 do their specific jobs right."
Water dilluted sodium bicarbonate is adequate for the job. Cheap, neat, mild and clean, without side effects.
Most of the commercial deoxidants I've tried are either pretty agressive or have tendency to leave a sort of "protective" film which is something I am not particularly fond of.
Best regards,
Sead
|
