Room treatment success story

great I just myself purchased some used treatment RPG and waiting for delivery.May I ask where you positioned the panels? Thanks for this thread.

As I mentioned in a previous post. I think the rug on the hardwood floor is a good idea, but be carefull with room treatment. Too much and it will suck the life out of your amplifier.

I'm happy to see another person find out for themselves how important room treatments are. I hope you enjoy music more because of it.

I know what you mean, when i started on this stuff (audio) an engineer told me the importance of the acoustics to have a better sound.

The rug on the floor ads a nice touch but does very little with taming the room. Rpg has a unique product called BAD panels, combination absorber&diffusor in one package.They should with proper application keep from the over usage of to much absorbtion and dead room.I suggest using their 4" panels and work on the early reflections.The front wall should receive first treatment and then back wall.

How does one determine what kind of or how much room treatments to apply? I mean, don't want the room to sound dead, but don't want it to boomy either.

Never better said, 'its the room stupid'.

How does one determin how much and where? There ae many ways to determine placement of treatment. Small rooms always have bass problems so you might start at the top where walls meet. You may ask a friend walk around a room and talk in a faily loud tone to determine if the voice sounds pleasent or sharp or grating to your ear. The use of clapping hands and listening for the decay "slap echo" and just good old commen sense.Placing treatment of the front wall in thickness of a least 3"to 4" is best and the rear wall are best and the most safe.

i disagree with the notion treating the front wall is best---in fact, it most likely needs very little treatment at all.

the most success is finding first reflections and treating them right away. that and bass traps are a great start. add some diffusion on the back wall and something on the ceiling, and you are done!

It should also depends on the type of speakers you have in the room. I don't think it's necessarilly the room we are treating, but the rooms response to sound coming from your speakers. The radiating pattern of the speakers, first reflections, etc., would be key. I have stats-very direct stats - first reflections are practically non-existent, if there at all. I would think my room treatment configeration would be different if I had box speakers, or horns, or...

Edge22,

i'll have my room treated to (can't wait;).
In about 7-14 days.
Though i will run even more than stuff than you.

2 Monster bass
4 244
3 242
6 Tritraps

All but two on stands, the other two will be hanging.

I noticed someone asked on how to know how to position.
That is not difficult.
Best is to start with corners, bass traps (tritraps, 1 in each corner or 1 in each corner behind speaker. Or 2, on top of eachother).
Behind speakers, 244 or 242.
First reflection - 242.
Behind sofa, 1 or 2 monster bass.

Or, why not check Gik acoustics home page or mail/ call them, Frank or Bryan help you out.
They are nice.

It is staggering how much it sometimes interacts.
If you got a chance to hear before and after, you see (hear).
A dealer/ speaker manufacturer, told me straight up. He had been at audiophilers so many times. He was shocked in some cases. Bad set ups of speakers in the actual room. Many clients switched gears like shirts and they had excellent set ups but bad rooms or set ups.

The most problem with this are often with the ladies.
I guess it i somewhat difficult with WAF (wife acceptance facor).
Even small rooms can use quite large speakers if done propperly:)

Kclone, I sort of agree with the oversimplification set forth by Keithr. He left out some treatments for sidewall first reflections (usually necessary) but included some reference to ceilings which most over look. :-)

But, FWIW, in my opinion you would be best served by getting a good handbook on room acoustics and how you treat them (anomalies). Its far more of a science and the practice is more methodical and very specific to your room than just the application of a little black magic. In fact I would suggest that you spend little money until you have a good understanding of room acoustics, prospective treatments, and are not just reliant on the typical internet advice. Good luck..........

This information comes from "Sound Reproduction" The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms written by a pioneer in acoustics Floyd Toole

first reflections
While the consensus is that there should be some absorption in a room, there are two schools of thought on whether one should try to absorb first reflections:

1) Don't treat first reflections: See Toole, Sound Reproduction for info that you don't need to treat first reflections. Toole's chapters 6 and 7 and in many places throughout the whole book, explain that when tested and asked in controlled experiments, people prefer early reflections for music and early reflections help speech intelligibilty. having the first reflections give the benefit of a sense of envelopment and broader spatial imaging (and low IACC) that listeners in Toole's experiments prefer from first lateral reflections.

Of course, you do still want absorption in the room primarily to avoid flutter echoes. But so long as reflections are not so delayed that they start to resemble echoes, people prefer them.

2) The old conventional wisdom, but on the wane (especially among those who have read Toole's book), is that you should treat first reflections.

Possible good reasons to absorb first reflections are:

speakers with poor off-axis repsonse may benefit from first reflection absorption. That is, if your front speakers send out the equivalent of acoustic flatulence to the side to be reflected off the walls, then you probably don't want that acoustic flatulence to be bounced back to you, so you might as well absorb it.
if you are a sound engineer and want to hear only the direct sound, including the direct sound from the surround speakers and don't want to be distracted by the ambiance and envelopment created by the reflections, then you should absorb them.
Apart from those good reasons to absorb first reflections, some people maintain that absorbing first reflections helps imaging. This is inconsistent with Toole's experiments, however.

thanks for the help guys. I have spent tons of money on the gear all these years, and very little on the room. So time to change that. thanks again.

Schipo,

You asked about where I put the panels.

The short answer is that I put all 5 on the back wall (that is, the wall behind me when I am seated).

Here is the longer answer: When I talked with the folks at GIK Acoustics, they originally recommended 8 of the 244s based on my room size (about 25 x 23 x 9 foot ceilings) and seeing pictures (lots of bare walls and hard wood floors).

I decided to start with 5 of the 244s based on (1) I came up with a design idea using 5 on the back wall that my wife liked, and (2) I was somewhat skeptical about how much an improvement room treatment would make in the first place. I am now a convert after hearing the "before" and "after."

In talking to GIK Acoustics about my idea of using 5 on the same wall, they suggested that the back wall would be better for this. This was at least in part because the Magnepan speakers that I have are dipoles (that is, sound comes from both the front and the back of the speaker). Because of the design of the Magnepans, putting too much absorption behind them would cause them to lose some of benefits of this design.

What they suggested for my "next" step is to have some absorption closer to the center of the front wall and to have diffusion behind the Magnepan speakers.

What kind of RPG treatment did you get?

I had a pretty well treated room before, but when we chose to remodel I decided to hire an acoustics firm to help engineer and design what was needed. The results far outdistanced all of my diy efforts previous. Even a couple of hours consulting time to get guidance on materials and placement is well worth it IMO, and probably costs less than you might think. You can see my results and find a link to the whitepaper on our efforts in my system. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions, be happy to share my experience.

Kclone,

One way to get some professional advice on your particular room (and the type of speakers you have, etc.) for free is to contact GIK Acoustics. I spoke with them over the phone, emailed them pictures of the room, dimensions, etc. for a "no obligation" recommendation. I did not get a hard sell at all, it was very low key. Frank was also very patient with my many follow-up questions and also very knowledgable. They also have a good return policy. I believe that other companies will also do this, I just happen to have ended up using GIK, primarily because of their reasonable prices and very good service before I even bought anything.

While I think learning on your own through the internet or books is very helpful, I would consider emailing them (or someone else) pictures to at least see what they have to say about your particular situation.

Where in the room did you put the 5 panels?Do you have them stradling the corners and having maggies do you have absorbtion or diffussion behind the maggies?

Moonguy,

The 5 panels are all on the back wall (that is, the wall behind me). I have them hanging on the wall -- similar to how you would hang a picture. They can be straddled in the corner. However, in talking with the folks at GIK, they suggested hanging on the wall. I think this may have been in part because my room is very large, and a large room generally has fewer bass issues than a small room.

My next step will be to follow GIK's recommendation and put diffusion behind the maggies (with a little absorption on the center of the front wall, but not directly behind the maggies).

Are you confused yet?

ASC (Acoustic Sciences Corporation) is the original and IMHO still the best.

RPG and GIK came later.

Eventually all audiophiles realize the benefits of room acoustics and when compared to component upgrades room treatment is a bargain, yet most audiophiles buy the cheaper product.

Every room is different. I clap my hands and listen for the live areas in the room.

An open fireplace between the speakers can be a problem area as it will cause an echo.

A wall or other hard surfaces in close proximity to the listening position will cause reflections and distort the sound.

Something as simple as a leather chair in the listening position can cause problems with the sound since leather is a reflective surface. If you don't believe me, try covering your leather chair with a blanket and see what happens.

Placing a rack for your equipment or anything else between the speakers is the quickest way to destroy the sound.

Certain types of window coverings can make good room treatment too.

I've had success with GIK panels also, maxxed out at (5) 244 panels and (2) 242 for sidewall reflections. More than that started to deaden the sound. A wool carpet was another substantial improvement.

I have heard a marked improvement through the addition of four GIK corner tri-traps. There was a notable improvement in the mid range. Most people are unaware of masking - where lower frequencies hide higher frequencies to our ears/brain system. (Masking is what allows us to listen to MP3 compressed music and have it to sound quite good - our ears actually miss lots of information due to limitations in the tiny hairs/nerves)

By cleaning up the bass you hear a lot more mid range. This is one of the reasons panels give so much detail (the lack of bass in these designs allows you to hear more mids).

A speaker design with a damped bass (very tight) and a well treated room will allow you to hear much more from your music whilst still enjoy music that is rich in LF material.

There is no evidence that first reflections are bad as a matter of principle, hence there is no NEED to treat them.
Side wall reflections have generally positive effects, and there is evidence for that.
Reflections from front and rear are less preferred and treatment may be beneficial.
There are the obvious exceptions and therefore each case must be considered individually.

FWIW, Schipo, I think your first sentence is misleading.

There is also no EVIDENCE that they are good. They are what they are and whether they are deemed good or bad is dependent on a lot of things, including personal opinion and/or appreciation of the sound field they allow to exist, or help create.

For example only, I enjoy specific pin point imaging, a sound that will be detrimentally effected by excessive first reflection point sound with many popular box speakers.

I agree with your last sentence totally.

Yes to adjust the side wall treatment to individual "TASTE"..the individual taste may be wrong when it comes to treatment of first reflection.

Treating the reflection point at which the sound from the right channel speaker hits the left side wall (and vice versa) may actually be more beneficial than treating the first reflection point. FWIW, from what I've read and experienced, diffusion is more beneficial in larger rooms where the panels are at least 8' away from your ears.

The Decware site has some interesting room treatment tips worth checking out, including use of diffusion (I own 4 of their diffusion panels). There is also an interesting method they describe that allows you to find all the reflection points, but you'll need a laser pointer and lots of mirrors to conduct the test.

In my room I treat first reflection point that also captures the opposite reflections as well using Real Traps panels. I use Acoustimac 6" bass traps in the corners of the front walls and I also treat the upper corners with triangles and the upper seams where the wall meets the ceiling with rectangles (I use Eighth Nerve products for the corners and seams).

Side wall treatment is beneficial particularly if the room has a left/right imbalance.

Front and back walls should follow the live end dead end theory. Preferably live end would be behind the speakers dead end behind the listening position.

Clap your hands and listen for a very slight reverberant decay. If there is no decay you have over damped.

I know an audiophile who is blind since birth.
When we spoke of placement of speakers in room and also acoustics, he did tell me how our hearing works.
He has also been working in the upper high end and mostly with studios etc over 25 years.
We all do are own conclusions, but he have tought me some of value. Quite often i have noticed he has strong points.

I will not pull all of that here. But i can say, it is very interesting how human brain let us percept.
I usually try to do lots and lots of different set ups with my speakers. I have also noticed, while fine tuning and doing listening, i usually keep eyes closed (not when moving around ofcourse:).
For me, it makes it easier to concentrate on differences.
I am only using, same few reference tracks that i know is working for me.

As i was told, mostly from the acoustic companies that i have approached over the years. When doing one wall, start with that behind the speakers and corners.
I noticed some started off with that behind head.
Well, ofcourse it's pending on the actual room.
Though, it might be worth to consider.
Masking effects is what it's all about, that is for sure.

Interesting thread.
I've been doing a fair amount of reading on accoustics and I'm now building 2 16"-diam. x 6'-high bass traps a-la John Risch to be placed at the corners behind the speakers (dynamic speakers).

Next, I was thinking of adding self-standing absorbing panels (also a-la John Risch) behind the speakers and towards the center point to absorb their first reflection on the wall behind the speakers. Good second step? From this thread I'm getting that maybe a better second step might be treating the back wall.

Thanks all for posting your experiences and opinions. They enrich what one can read on books/papers.

Hi Edge,

I'm glad I was able to help. Hope your situation provides an example for others experiencing the same issues. Keep us up to date as to your progress. The changes you describe are exactly what I've experienced after moving into a new house/room and having to work on its acoustics.

i'm a believer now too. no doubt it was best 600-700 i've ever spent on hi-fi. i went all in. ceiling, floor and walls along with some corner and window treatments. couldn't be happier with the results.

great advise from some smart veterans of hi-fi. thank you!

Inpieces, Closing your eyes helps you to concentrate on the sound without visual distractions. Eventually you will learn to concentrate as well with your eyes opened.

This is also why many audiophiles like listening in the dark.

Can anyone share experiences with ceiling diffusers. My room is odd-shape; therefore, to overcome this i have had to put theater curtains that pull out on both sides of the walls (open loft so one side was open while the other side was brick and windows). this creates a ton of absorption basically canceling out the open portion. ultimately it might be too much absorption but that is a matter i have to live with. now, i am looking at ceiling diffusors for first reflection (note: my celing slants from 9.5 feet to 11 feet). i was wondering what thought people have on this, what experience and what products, i am looking at an auralex product but open to other ideas. aesthetics is a concern but not number 1.

One thing is for sure with room treatment, you cannot just ad room treatment the way someone else did because all rooms are different.

Edge22 - congrats on your GIK transaction and its impact on your room. You're well on your way to improving your room/system sound! I would HIGHLY recommend you buy and read Dr Floyd Toole's latest book (http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269601512&sr=1-1) before you spend anymore money so that you (1)buy and/or make the right kinds of products, and (2)better understand where to place treatments and why they work the way they do.

A member above recommended the LEDE (live-end, dead-end) style of treating a room -- I'd stay away from that and here's why: The LEDE concept is something that came out of the 1970's from Don/Chip Davis/Syn Aud Con for recording control rooms. It's based on mostly ill-conceived ideas that stem from a misunderstanding of the Haas effect, which describes the level at which a delayed reflection sounds equally loud to the direct sound. The Hass effect has nothing to do with the audibility of a reflection which is 30-40 dB lower in level than the Hass effect. I would not recommend an LEDE room since they sound very strange, they do not achieve what they claim, and to work well you need to add tons of absorption.

Toole's philosophy with acoustical treatment is to diffuse or absorb reflections that do harm at the listening area, and leave alone the ones that do potential good. Everything else can be ignored since they never arrive at the listeners' ears or if they do, they are well below the threshold of harm.

Also mentioned by Schipo above - who's obviously read Toole's book - is that the lateral side wall reflections are beneficial, particularly in stereo, since they can produce greater apparent source width and spaciouness, while the front/rear reflections can decrease these attributes since they come from the same direction as the direct sound, increasing the Interaural Cross Correlation Coefficient (IACC). This is why the back wall is often treated first and also because you're sitting closer to it so the audible affects will he heard more than front wall treatment due to larger atttenuation caused by signal propogation loss and the repeated surface impacts on the sound's way to the front wall. If you want to have more focussed imaging you can always choose to absorb the first side-wall reflections, personal preferences prevail.

Moreover, diffusion and absorption should be wide-band to ensure that you are attenuating the entire spectrum of the reflection rather than simply applying a low pass filter to the reflection, which causes timbral colouration. So you need 3-4 inches of high density fibreglass to work down to 200 Hz and 2-4 ft wide-band diffusers.

Edge22, you may wish to explore the DIY route as an effective yet economical way of pursuing further treatments. For example, I've got 8 GIK Tri-Traps in a single back wall corner making a 7' high rectangle shaped bass trap that's 24" wide by 24" deep with an air space of 6-7" behind it which cost $$$. For the same money I could have built way more traps AND diffusion . . .

If you want to know how to build a Skyline or Hemi-Cylindrical diffuser - both of which are excellent at preventing a 'dead' sounding room - then email me.

Good luck!

Rrog,

i only do such listening when i am tweaking. i am talking (re)position of speakers.
Also, my room was in a paint prog, so i do not just suggest all do exactly the same in their rooms. There are key elements that are pretty common though.
I had great contact with a manufacturer, they told me what i ultimately was to work with first.
I have also leveled with 4 acoustic companies before treating this specific room.
Even though they suggest a bit different, the start off point is similar.
Ofcourse rooms alter - even sonics.
There are audiofreaks changing cables, cdps etc etc to balance the percepted sound. Even though they might be better off looking over the acoustics first. Even a room that seems ok, might benefit from treatment.
Some alter this with cables. That is kind of chasing a ghost with butterfly net.
Just currently, a quite large cable manufacturer suggested i would skip the Gik package, and invest the money in their cables instead. They told me many clients had complained of same things as me, and all was bettered with the good cables they make. That pretty much tells me how screwed up the scene can be.
As i leveled pretty much with Tony Gee (Tg-acoustics) about this, he also confirmed how common this is.
I was in at a local small dealer. They have an extremely treated room (with quite large speakers). When i told them, they have great sound in their small room, and that it sound horrible at my friends home (he bought a system from them), they say it is for demo purpose and not at all needed. They say this, due to the fact many clients bought oversized speakers and and expected this would sound great in their rooms. When my friend set up his system, it sounded really bad. Go figure if he should start altering electronics and cables due to the fact he listened to them.
He could blow off so much money and never start off correct.
There are many storries i have heard that are close to this.
Not all have had opportunity to hear what room treatment and better placements can do.
Those that knows, don't have to care for this. But again, not everbody have had the chance to actually go hear differences (before/after).

I still await my full kit. It's currently being built:)
So i'll have to wait.

Inpieces, I agree with all you wrote. You are on the right track. Keep me posted, I am interested in how it goes.

Hi Rrog and ofcourse the rest of you.

I intended to do an easy compair and not complicate too much. A before and after the tweak.
Mainly keep it down to the most obvious.
Also to see, if it is ok, to use larger speakers in small listening rooms.
I will try to tell of sonics, if it alters or not.
What will change, for better or worse.
How i percept the all in all sound(field) and also, bass, mid and the top.
I only use, the typical start off kit, though, very extended due to the small size of my room.
All in all 7 panels and 8 bass absorbers.

When i had my room painted and requested help.
I explained i wanted pin point focus, heavily reduced flutter echo and fast deep bass with dynamical contrast and impact.
Flutter echo in itself, makes the sound blurr.
If just reducing flutter echo and 1-3 bass nodes (pending on rooms), it is an incredible change.
I hope it turns out well.

Either i start off a new thread named GIK Acoustic treatments (or similar)... or post here.
Expect minimum 10 days as nothing has been shipped.

So, what do you do, with a room that is really quite much to small for the speakers - you just must have?

Does it even work decent?

Counting, from the size of my room and looking on how large a recommended listening room would be - for my speakers (Monitor Audio PL 300).
We talk numbers from 60-70% larger.
My room have these numbers: 515cm wide and 388cm deep. Height (floor to ceiling) about 247cm.

So, how does this work?

In the begining, the room suffered from flutter echo. But to my surprise, not as big of a subject for worst room-boom as numbers suggested.

As i listen to quite much alternative, i also listen to Canadian Frontline Assembly. The album Epitaph, push low bass and trigger nodes like nothing else.
Many highend speakers can sound compressed with this album.
A few speakers sounded just terrible, some are handling it superb.
If this album works in a room, i guess no-one will have problem with bass nodes in that room (happy you;)

For most music and probably 90% of what i have. My untreated room had a clear masking effect due to flutter echo. Also bass made blemishes that added to less than ideal results.
All people does not seem to find issues with this - the dark side of acoustics.
I have friends having even worse. Still changing very expensive cdp, cables etc etc without even caring for the acoustics.
Well, enough of that.

I contacted some acoustic companies and decided to buy what looked most in synergi talking shape/ size and colour options.
My choice became Gik Acoustics. So, i did a check up and found fair kits. I suspected these would not help me. Mosty due to the fact that the kits had lesser panels and bass absorbers, so i contacted GIK.
After same paintings and mails, i decided to buy a kit, suiting better in my room.
Mainly to absorb bass and reflection/ echo.
Most units are made to be wall mounted, or you can use them an optional stands. I decided to buy optional stands making them easier to move + no need to use nails in the walls.

The corners behind the speakers (front wall from listening position), i decided to use TRItraps.
2 units in each corner.

Behind the loudspeakers i placed 1 unit 244 panel, behind each speaker.
Between them, i placed 1 unit 242 panel (center of room).

Behind my sofa, (rear wall), i placed 1 unit of TRItrap in each corner. Above the TRItrap, i was going to mount 1 unit 244 panel, in the angle of rear wall and sidewall.
(i did not)

Directly behind my sofa i placed 2 units of Monster bass absorbers.

At the sides (left / right), between listening position (sofa) and the loudspeakers i have 1 unit of 242 panel at the first reflection.

To detect that is easy, when you sit in listening position, have a friend hold a mirror. When you view the loudspeaker, you see the first reflection.

The remaing 2 units of 244 panels, those that was ment to hang over the TRItraps of the rearwall.
I have now placed these, between the 244 units that are situated behind the loudspeakers and the dual TRItraps .

The difference is a more coherent soundfield. The slight blurr and smear of the flutter echo, and rumbling bass are very very reduced.
The readability - better view the very layeres of material, the dynamical contrast and impact. The silence the focus and depth.
Bass is more agile and clean impact is more firm. The whole music flows different when start and stop are more defined and firm. This is hard for me to put words on, it is just so much better. If you suspect you might need treatment, you probably do.

Sonics does not alter. I would say this is a very good upgrade.

I have a new loudspeaker cable. I compaired these two i have, before i got my GIK kit. The difference is way more obvious now.

I can concluded that in my case this is a very good upgrade.

I think it looks quite good, all units are black, they are easy to move on stands. Music sounds alot better, i better see into to soundfield and better orientate in the event.
There are no downsides of harsh treble response, shrill, thin, cold or too little bass. There are no holes or dips.

I had large industrial absorbers at one time. I bought them to try. Those are not made for music.
What happened was that the sound became dead, it felt as whole frequencies were sucked out and the experience was terrible.

There are probably bad absorbers and treatment avaible.
I have no intention to say these are good if they were not. IMO, this is a very nice upgrade and it helps you better hear what your system can do.

For 90% of the music i have, it is terrific and hope that a few more dare to invest to achieve audio-nirvana. The remaining 10%, is just when the lowest bass is too powerful in it's output.

If you listen alot to electronica with heavy/ low frequent bass. See to it that you are not buying to small absorbers.
As for me, i could use 2 more TRItraps and 1 unit Monster bass more.

I am sorry if it is somewhat inconclusive and/ or unclear - what i experience. If anyone asks (whatever really), i will try to answer best i can.

Inpieces - thanks for sharing your story above. Have you a digital camera to take pics of your room for all to see?

Like Inpieces, I too have traveled down a long road of room treatments. If there was any advice I'd like to share it's to educate yourself first so that you (i)don't go down the wrong path based on falacious reasoning or outdated theories, (ii)don't waste your money buying the "wrong" kind of treatment that is too thin or not deep enough, and (iii)can learn and begin to appreciate the physics that's occuring and why certain treatments work the way they do. Gaining knowledge, understanding, and common sense go a long, long way.

My bare room with just drywall for walls and ceiling and low cut pile carpet from wall-to-wall (with underpad) sounded terrible - too live a sound with too much flutter echo as one would expect. I began to tackle the bass region first with lots of bass traps and experimented with positioning around the room and with the distance between the wall and the back of the trap. All the while taking repeated measurements to see what was happening. You'll invariably be surprised at some of the sonic outcomes based on treatment location. For example, when a bass trap works better on the back wall than the front wall because the front wall has a door on it and the back wall doesn't and because the back wall also has a brick foundation behind the drywall. All of these things are factors that pretty soon add up to hundreds of permutations and combinations of variables that would make a Ph.D.'s eyes swim, let alone mine.

But taking it one step at a time starting with the bass region and then progressing to the mid/high region was key. I've reduced a 11db peak at 80Hz down to now just 3dB - an eight dB reduction - due solely to bass trap positioning and using thick enough resistive traps and pulling them at least 6"-7" away from the wall, sometimes as far as 13" away from the wall. WAF be damned!

The next region was the mids/highs which I only wanted to diffuse or reflect not absorb. You wouldn't believe how much HF wall-to-wall carpet can absorb so I desperately wanted to prevent a dead-sounding room. Again education came to the rescue with what kinds of diffusion to use and where, 1D vs 2D, seating distances away, calculating low freq effectiveness of diffusers etc. . .

The end result is pretty special as it's been about a 2 year journey (a slow learner?) and it really sounds amazing now. It's like having your own audio laboratory where the smallest of changes in tubes or cables can be heard. It's like falling in love with your music all over again, as cliche as that sounds. People who have spent their lives listening to music on boom boxes, or in cars, or on their iPods have the dumbest grins on their faces when they listen and point to places in space to the musicians on an invisible stage! it's the funniest thing to see but also very rewarding.

So, I would encourage all to treat thy room before upgrading your equipment as it'll pay back sonic dividends far greater than swapping out tubes, cords, preamps etc. Please email me if you'd like with questions and I'd be happy to try and convey my experience.

cheers,
kevin

Kevinzoe
Amen... Funny how some guys get 30,000 dollar speakers and switch them in and out, then you come to find they have them in a room worth about 2000 bucks! Build a house or a room to get the optimal out of that crazy speaker is far better and probably cheaper! Unfortunately nobody learns this up front, we all have made the mistakes and this always ends up last on the list.

But let me say this, this is just not possible for everyone, however somebody especially with huge multi thousand dollar systems there is not much excuse unless they are renting. However the guy with 5000 total sometimes into a system just has to make it work with what he has sometimes, and this is not always easy or efficient, they may never even know it unless they read this site everyday!

Kevinzoe,

ofcourse measuring is best. We have a pro company here. They do serious jobs and they are very good and have done listening rooms at high end stores around. Though, i rent my flat. So, i bought what i find best suitable for a future, as i will not live here forever.

Easiest way to describe listening in my room, is like listening through headphones. IMO, very balanced and with high readability and impact.

GIK Acoustics IMO, has been very nice fellows. They have the down to earth approach and always helps with questions and ideas.

It do sound very good here now. When i was into more expensive units i had some visits to audio freaks. Some had home made units, speakers and acoustic treatments. Some had undeniably expensive equiptments and half way to bad acoustics. Far too many have just positioned a system under not best conditions. I fully understand this is not for everyone. I just wanted to chime in as i believe those that gave this more simple approach as i took, would be superbly happy when finally listening. We could all go on trying to perceive an image of what is and what is not.
I guess, for most it's a matter of cost and you mention WAF. That alone, might be most difficult.

My quest was for:
Good to great acoustics.
Appearance/ looks.
How can i use these in case of moving?
How does it affect cleaning my room?

As is, all is fine IMO. There are always more extreme approaches. These units i have do not weight too much either. They are on stands, except for TRItraps. So they are easy to move around. They look realy sober in black.

I had bass absorbers in the past, weight was 50kgs each. They were huge. No more!

Friends who has been here, well, all have there own opinions.
As for how it sounds, none had argued. Most complement to focus and readability. While pushing the limits for higher db, it is an amazing agility and impact. It is easy going really high on volume, as no direct overhang or disturbances are detected. I try keep it at normal to low (neighbours/ complaints are not good). It sounds really good at quite low. But,for the sense of drama, pushing it is quite an experience.

Hello , I noticed you have magnepans. A suggestion : I recently placed a 2" thick oc 703 2'x4'panel behind my maggies 1.6 's . In a direct line behind them floor to ceiling . It was out of curiosity i tried this. All the stuff i have read online states to put diffusors behind them .I read you got advice to put all 5 of your panels in the rear.I also did that from the advice i read in this post .a great improvement .The sound is alot less bright doing this. Bass like crazy .i previously had floor to ceilng curtains behind the speakers which did help with some absorption and diffusuion. I just did this today and am very pleased with the new sound . I would recommend this highly !