Rolled some 12ax7's recently...

In my phonostage (Viva Fono) I've tried a number of different 12AX7 variants. The Mullards sounded a bit veiled (muddy) for my particular application. In a friend's Tron phonostage, Mullards actually sounded oddly phasey.

I liked the sound of 5751s -- neutral, reasonably detailed and open on top. I did not notice a loss of gain, but, I wasn't looking at gain because gain and noise are not issues with my phonostage.

Telefunken 12AX7/ECC83s were also very good in my phonostage -- quite detailed, extended top and good harmonic density without being muddy sounding.

The Telefunken ECC803S is a very different animal from the other 12AX7s I tried -- incredible clarity and detail and explosive transients. It sounds a bit lean (less upper bass) and perhaps clinical, but, I made other minor compensating adjustments (primarily to VTA), and it is the very best tube for my application.

However, the ECC803S is WAY more expensive than the competition. For the money, a good pair of 5751s are hard to beat.

I don't what is meant by the statement that 12AX7s are "grainy." I sometimes wonder if "grainy" is sort of the opposite of "fluid" or "smooth." Sometimes, what some others describe as smooth or fluid, I think of as being "soft" and a bit "muddy." The "muddy" quality I am talking about is a bump up in upper bass lower midrange that tends to obscure (or soften) upper frequency detail. Perhaps this detail is the "grain" being referred to; its hard to guess what these terms mean. So much is dependent on personal taste and system application, I don't think any generalizations can be made that one tube is better than another across the board. That is why, in my prior post, I emphasized the fact that my observations pertained to MY system.

One thing I forgot to mention in my prior post. For the Tron phonostage, the best alternative turned out to be Amperex Bugle Boys, at least in my friend's system (the consensus of several listeners). We did not try the ECC803S for this particular trial. I don't recall what current production tube the Tron came with, but, it is utter crap compared to the old alternatives we tried. The Tron was extremely sensitive to tube choice. I suppose this is a tribute to how revealing this phonostage can be.

Yes, it does appear that many older tube varieties have very fragile printing on them. My telefunken ECC83/12AX7s barely have any markings left, just from handling. I am fairly careful handling the ECC803S which were never used (cam in very nice looking boxes, though the cardboard has become somewhat fragile). My Bugle Boys also have somewhat fragile printing.

Because of all of this discussion, I did something I rarely do (being quite lazy), which is to switch out the ECC803S and replace them with the ECC83. Where my memory was that the ECC83 was more "muddled" sounding, that turned out to not exactly be the case. The ECC83 is not really more muddled or lacking in clarity, it is more the case of transients (initial attack of the note) being softened, as compared to the ECC803S. I still prefer the ECC803S, but again, the price differential is striking.

I should also mention that, in another friend's system, the Bugle Boys sounded terrific in the phono stage of a Hovland preamp -- so much more lively than the stock tube that came with the preamp.

Bicycle Man,

The ebay price listing for the ECC803S is quite high, but, is there something else you object to about the listing? Are these fakes?

Whether or not a tube is the "best" is a matter of system synergy and taste. I found it a bit obnoxious for the poster to suggest there is any kind of audiophile consensus on the 803S, but, the price any decent tube of that type gets is a reflection of demand for that tube. Sure, collectors have driven up the price too, but, I bet quite a few are in actual use.

I do think the 803S is unique, in terms of its utter speed, impact of transients, and detail. I know it can sound lean and analytical in most setups, but, where it works well, I have not heard anything that can compare. It also has a reputation for having a very long life. The value of what this tube offers is in the eye of the beholder.

I am just trying to get some idea of whether you are raising objections to the tube itself, the crazy pricing, or the specifics of the particular ebay posting/poster.