Rogue 66 vs Rogue 99

i had a hot-rod version of the rogue 99, & yes, it's coloured. besides, nice as mark o'brien is, he ain't up-front about the output impedence of his preamp. he states its 100 ohms - real-world experience told me 2400 ohms is more likely. i, too, had extremely poor bass response, most likely due to a long cable-run between the 25k-ohm input-impedence of my active x-over, and the high output-impedence of the rogue. i, too, had noise problems w/this unit - ewe could hear any rheostat-light in the house being adjusted thru my speakers! took a while to figure out what *that* was! ;~) while the rogue had better soundstage depth than the linn kairn it replaced, the kairn bested it in all other areas.

not satisfied w/the rogue, but still wanting that *toob* sound (those colourations *were* kinda nice!), i then tried the cary slp98. ($1300, used). better than the rogue in all areas, especially in accuracy & frequency extension. (and this was their stock wersion - they, also, offer a *hot-rod* wersion.) no impedence problems w/this unit, which is rated at 600 ohms output impedence, which my field-testing confirmed.

i'd have stopped my preamp search here, but yust after i got the cary, i came across a melos music-director at a reasonable price, & i yust had to try it - i *loved* a melos sha-gold i'd heard several years ago, but couldn't afford it then. well, the melos is in another league all-together, imho. at ~$2k used, i don't see how it could be beat. (regarding s/f pricing, btw, i dunno about the s/f line-2, but the line-3 can be had brand-gnu for <$2.4k, delivered...)

oh, one more thing - both the cary & the melos have a tape monitor, which the rogue doesn't have. i like this for my dbx-3bx, which i can now keep out of the signal, except when in use. not possible w/the rogue, so i dint have it hooked-up. also, the cary & the melos have balance controls, which the rogue doesn't have... and, regarding the rogue 66, if ya get the built-in fono, don't ya have to lose the balance control?

hi dave,

yure rite about the price of the s/f line 3 - sorry, dunno what i was thinkin' - mebbe i was tinking about the retail price of the rogue, w/fono... $2750, shipping included, was the lowest price quote i got on this prior to buying the melos (it was also a preamp i was considering).

as far as cost goes, music-directors' last retailed for $4600 new (line-stage only - $7400 for l/s & fonostage). but, i paid only $2k for my line-stage. i'd love to try a bat vk 50se, but as i can't afford one even used, it's kinda a moot point for me. if yure tryin' to say that the melos *should* out-perform the rogue cuz its retail price is more than double the rogue's, well yure right - it should, & it does, imho! :>) but the cary slp98, which is comparable in price to the rogue, also outperforms the rogue, imho, & is more flexible, at least for me.

as far as mark & the rogue, i'm not sayin' anyone's lyin'. all i know is that 100 ohms output impedence means that placing a 100 ohm resistor across the outputs should correspond to a 3db drop in volume - which is the change in level that's generally considered to be the smallest change audibly distinguishable by a casual listener - anything smaller becomes gradually more difficult to perceive. well, i placed a 2.2k-ohm resistor across the outputs of the rogue, & the drop in level, while not measured w/a db-meter, was *easily* noticeable - it was *at least* 3db, indicating a much higher output impedence. as i said before, it could also be the 17'-long interconnects that were contributing to the problem in my system.

i'm glad you enjoy the rogue, i know there are others out there who think it's great, too, & i'm sure y'all's hearin' is yust fine. not to be disrepctful, but i yust tink there's others out there that are better, for the same money, especially if yure willing to purchase used.

regards, doug

hi david,

interesting proposal. to be honest, i tink it'd be more reasonable to have the output impedence of the rogue tested by an independent lab - prolly a lot less driving inwolved, too! ;~) as for me, w/a wife, young children, the alfa club, & the pantera club pulling for my free time, i'm not sure i could swing something like this, yust to prove a point.

the only reason the impedence-issue came up is because, when discussing the sonics of my rogue w/one of the most well-respected tube designers in the industry, he said it sounded like an impedence problem, & he said there was *no way* a mu-follower tube design could have such a low output impedence, unless it was a hybrid design. (rogue, in fact, doesn't publish the output impedence of the preamp, this designer obtained it from rogue by calling & asking if his amps would have any impedence-matching problems w/the rogue.) it was he who suggested i try placing resistors across the outputs of the preamp to check for actual volume-level change. doing so corroberated his beliefs, & testing of other preamps in this same manner, further corroborated them. lower output-impedence preamps, in fact, required lower-walue resistors to get an audible wolume-drop.

as mentioned in my previous post, a 2.2k-ohm resistor casued a noticeable wolume drop when placed across the rogue 99's outputs. this same walue resistor caused *no* change in wolume when placed across a cary slp98 preamp - it took a 1k-ohm resistor to hear any volume decrease. the melos, with *very* low output impedence, had no volume drop w/even a 500-ohm resistor across the outputs.

this test is wery easy to try at home - all ya need is a small "y" interconnect hooked up between your amp & preamp - then take a resistor & hold one end on the center-connector, the other end on the outside-connector of the free rca plug. the lower the output impedence of your preamp, the smaller-value resistor it will take to perceive a wolume-level drop. you mite wanna try this on yer preamp at home before taking it *anywhere* to be tested! ;~)

i don't need conwincing that the rogue 99's output impedence, whatever it is, is much higher than the cary slp98, the version of which i tested, was rated at 850 ohms - i audibly tested both, as described above. (i mistakenly said 600 ohms previously - i believe that this is correct for cary's most recent production, the unit i tested was older.) i suggest ewe do the same, prior to driving a day, to have this checked. and, as i said before, i'm sure there's a qualified tech (much closer then at rogue audio), that could test this for you w/proper equipment, if ya don't wanna try the audibility test.

regards, doug

ps - i noticed i have gotten an inordinately high number of negative feedback on my posts here. i guess it's due to my hostile, inflammatory, uncivil manner, & not due to the fact that some of ewe may not like my opinions... ;~)

dave, what's the length of yer interconnects? i tink this may have been a problem i faced w/my set-up. and, i *know* when i have good bass - w/a pair of vmps larger subs x'd over at 60hz, each driven by 900 watts, i get bass... ;~) and, interestingly enuff, the problem i had w/the rogue wasn't yust electronic/synth bass, but acoustic-upright bass was yust not there, & it was *this* that i missed the most. oh well... i guess it yust goes to show how important system-matching is...

regards, doug

1439bhr,

yure correct, only an order-of-magnitude estimate is possible. as i was told by the designer, but he suggested this was a good place to start. however, the cary, rated at 850 ohms output impedence, was at least an order of magnitude better (lower output impedemnce) in my testing, than the rogue.

leafs, while yure correct that i started complaining *immediately*, after using my rogue, i had over 600 hours on it prior to selling, including over 200 hours on nos tubes i bought, to try & *fix* it. the nos tubes helped, but weren't enuff...

regards, doug