The Bound for Sound review a while back of PBN speakers made me think they might be a worthy contender for rock and roll. Good thread, and good luck. Let us know what you discover.
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Kelton, I too love rock and a bit of jazz and blues. I'm using Aerial 10Ts with Krell amps (cast). I love it, and it definitely fulfills my hard rock desires which sound similar to yours. I've gone the monitor and sub route. The 10Ts offer the point source with the head in a synthetic rock material containing the tweeter and mid speakers. The large woofer base takes care of the rest. Awesome! Yeah, it would have no problem passing the ac/dc test either IMHO. Your Burmeister amp will be just fine with them. Give them a listen, and try to do it with your amp. I think they're a bit too heavy to bring home for a listen there.
"but I miss the sock-it-in-your-gut feeling"... Kelton I think what you're missing is 'Dynamics' which is what differentiates live-performances from the reproduced. Horn speakers will give you the speed & dynamic punch that you crave. Now alot of 'philes cringe at the sound of horns, (and I agree they have some undesirable colorations, but that's tweakable to a significant extent). I haven't heard the Avant Gardes (someone spell this correctly for me please?) but the reviews are superb, albiet they're pricey. I've been in love with my Klipsh for >20 years despite the 'horns-sound' which I've become accustomed to. Belle Klipsch or the LaScalas will work if you don't have corners available for Klipschorns, and they're designed to work close to backwalls (vs. sitting out in the middle of the living room) and are available pretty cheaply when you can find them. [See also: http://audiogo1.iserver.net/cgi-bin/forum5.pl?asund&969595915&read&3&4&Bob_bundus&53wNWQ6xyzUcg] Old JBL's or Altec's would work too, but probably considered even less "high-end" than Klipsch (which many will argue isn't even high-end at all either). My Belles list at $4500/pr. which isn't exactly KMart. With only 2 watts output, I get LOUD punchy & dynamic rock (nb. Dire Straits) at >105db SPL. Using a 200w/ch amp, the sky's the limit... Amp On!
I have gone down the same road as yourself looking for this speaker that does'nt seem to exist! (My latest purchase of Legacy's new Whisper and Extreme Subwoofer, is the closest so far though...but I'm still looking for "the" speaker). In retrospect, I think that I should have considered VMPS speakers. The one area in which they ALWAYS excelled was their dynamics (they lacked somewhat in refinement). VMPS has now revamped their higher priced offerings with some very unique drivers. It now looks as if they are both dynamic and refined. This is where I would start if I had to do it over.(Anthony Cordesman bought the review pair for his new reference!) I definately agree with one of the threads about NHT 3.3's (If your budget is below $4000.) At this price point, they don't have much competion in terms of a entry level high end speaker that can actualy produce decent levels. If you really like realistic loud, forget the Ariel 10T's. These speakers play amazingly loud ...for their size,...but they just don't have the enough drivers to move tons of air. In regard to Revel, I have heard many negative things in regard to their abilty to portray dynamic contrasts...from loud to soft...very "unhornlike"...for lack of a better description. (I have a sneaky suspicion that this problem is due to Revel's decision to utilize 4th order crossovers. 4th order crossovers always seem to suck up dynamic shadings) In regard to Von S7,...have you ever wondered why Vons are the most prolific high end speaker on the used market. This tells me something just isn't right about their designs. I have heard nothing but praise for the Dunlavy speakers...but I know he can do even better. He does not use the best offerings from his speaker suppliers...and I have heard the differences in sound from Vifa, Audax and Morel drivers to appreciate their better resoving abilities.I must note though that the best sound I have ever heard was from Dunlavy VI's , bi-amplified monoblock amplification with Sigtech digital room correction...so I must give credit where credit is due. The cost of this system was in excess $85k, so it was unfortunately outside of my budget...but I think that I could easliy live with this system...now if John Dunlavy would just use those premium drivers in his designs.... Last year at CES, I listened to every horn speaker at the show. Unfortunately, there still seems to be a comprimize in their overall sonic refinement, regardless of the manufacturer. If you can live with these aberations, the dynamics can be incredible .Unfortunately, I have found taht there has yet to be a horn speaker that does not "sound like a horn speaker"...if you know what I mean. Note: I have heard through the grapevine that Legacy will soon be offering a new flagship speaker which has all of the atributes of their Whisper, Focus and Extreme subwoofers combined! This may be where I end up next. (Unfortunately, this speaker will cost.....gulp.....around $25k...If you can afford this price point, you may want to investigate this speaker along with VMPS) Hope I was of some help. Please keep me updated on your findings so that I may also find "the" speaker.
Nice thread and fits my music tastes as well. I own the Focus now and bi-amp them with a pair of Parasound HCA-3500's. As far as dynamics it is an excellent combo. It is not however the last word in resolution for that smoky blues/jazz that I love as much as rock and roll. As you all know very few of us are ever satisfied long. I have just started my new house which includes a 25x35x10 room just for me
if ya want a full-range speaker w/o a subwoofer set-up, then go w/avantgarde acoustics horns (their top-line model *does* come w/an extra pair of outboard subs), or one of vmps' top models. ehider is right about vmps - wery dynamic, but their earlier versions weren't as refined as typical *audiophile* speakers. but w/their latest iterations using stuff like fancy raven tweeters, i'd bet this is no longer the case. but, what i'd do if i already had a pair of german physiks w/the walsh-style ddd, would be to add a pair of vmps' larger subs w/a good outboard crossover, and one (or a pair of) decent solid-state muscle amp(s). i currently run a pair of meret re monitors, bi-amped w/electrocompaniet amps. the bass is handled by a pair of vmps larger subs being driven by a pair of bridged adcom gfa 555's. crossover is the marchand 24db/octave xm9. this x-over is *wery* flexible, w/plug-in x-over frequency modules, and a volume control for the x-over point as well as low/hi-pass volume controls. my system, happy w/delicate instrumental & vocal work, will *definitely* pass the ac/dc test! :>) and we're not talking one-note boomy thump - the bass is a deep & tight & textured as *any* bass i've heard in *any* system. doug
MAN! Your musical tastes are just like mine! I have listened to many speakers over the years and can't get away from the fantastic sound of Thiels. I currently own 5i's which you can find used at very reasonable prices. What I love about the Thiel sound is first the incerdible soundstage - HUGE. Second is what you are missing, that great bass slam. With the right amp (your Burmester would do nicely) the bass is very controled, never muddy. Thiels are also very accurate so Jazz and Classical are reproduced well. The company is also wonderful to deal with, replacing drivers at the smallest sign of lessend performance, for no charge. If you have eclectic musical tastes you can't beat Thiels!
Kelton, I have been searching in vain for the perfect combination of "audiophile" components for years as well. One thing that I've found is that refined sound and loud, slamming volume doesn't exist within the same setup. If it does, I have stumbled across it yet. I use a Krell FPB 600 with Dunlavy SC-V's (soon to be SC-VI's) which sounds wonderful to me. But, if you want to listen at 110dB, that combination doesn't work. I think one of the audio dealers that I've worked with hit it right on the head " Audiophile speakers generally aren’t intended for listening at ear-bleeding volumes...". Some of the other responses I think have it right. Older JBL's perhaps. Maybe even Klipsch if you can tolerate the horns. I've auditioned the Legacy's. Thumbs down. Bass doesn't blend well at all. I've listened to the VMPS's as well. Great bass punch, but the mids and highs almost seemed to buzz a bit at higher volumes. The Revels, I just didn't like. I made the decision to listen to my program material at a slightly lower SPL with the Dunlavy's, something you may want to consider. The quality of the sound far eclipses the reduction in volume. Don't get me wrong, Dunlavy speakers will play loudly. Just not as loudly as say JBL's or Altec's. Let us know what you finally decide. If there is a such thing as a ‘final’ audio decision.
tho i'm almost certainly not one of the younger posters on this thread, i do like to listen to real rock & roll, as well as other types of music. my older son is also an audiophile with tastes similar to yours (he and his wife are both in the radio/entertainment industry); he frequently listens to my system to test how well various discs/lp's are recorded. my speakers will play real loud without breakup or listener fatigue. i recommend them highly for any type of music, including (but certainly not limited to) metal, grunge, garage, industrial, club, etc. the are avalon eidolons. the avalon opus might also work for you at somewhat lower price. i've had a number of monitor/sub systems in the past. none compares to the full-range avalon models mentioned. BTW, the eidolons also are very refined and will play classical, jazz, etc. better, IMO, than any of the other speakers thus far described. you've got some good electronics and cables that will blend well with the eidolons or opus'. you owe it to yourself to give em a try. rock on.
have you tried the hales.they are voiced playing pearl jam.paul hales answered so in a stereophile intervue some time ago.the bass in the revelation 3 is great and if you have the money try the trasendence series,still better bass and great highs.it's refreshing to know that there are audiophiles that enjoy good rock.i'm 38 years old and love good music from any era or choice but you only read about clasical and jazz in every magazine and when you audition at any store they look weird when you give them a cd to play and its supertramp or boston.good luck in your search.
I spent about years looking for the very same thing and I believe I have found it without question. Proac Response 2.5's are unbelievable. Huge soundstage and they hit with that satisfying kick drum thump. REALLY satisfying. I am running 2 Bryston 3B's bridged (400 W) and a CJ PV12a preamp and Classe cd player with Kimber kcag between cd and preamp and MIT shotgun for the rest. I am extremely happy with this combination and this is the first time I have every felt that way. Of course the room seems to be about idea too. Rambling . . .bottom line, consider the Proac's.
The Avalon speaker lines do it all. The model just below the Eidelon's (I forget their name) are everything you want, and more. You can probably find a used pair if you keep your eyes on the audio sites. Almost all the recommended speakers here are certainly damn good, but the Avalon's have something special going on. I have heard every type of music on them and they do not have a weak point. Every style of music comes across as if if the speakeers were deigned with only that style only in mind. If they don't work, you can be sure it is not the speaker causing problems.
Glad to know Someone else has musical tastes like mine. I too enjoy music from Bethovan to Limp Bizkit or DMX. In great system they all sound good to great depending on the recording quality. But for DMX or LimpBizkit or Underworld, soundstage is not that important as long system has sock-it-in your gut feeling. Which My Dunlavy V's Surely poduce (More clean power the better, Burmester's should do great) . For Alternative and electronic music My Classe SSP-50 processed and Classe amplification driven rear Dunlavy II's and Center Dunlavy SC-I Generate the Club scene sound. For Classicals and Jazz, and some well recorded Rock CD, 2 channels does great Job. So What is my point: That Dunlavy's V's are great choice for well focused dynamic sound for all kinds of music that you are looking for.
Kelton, While many of my fellow audiophiles may scoff at what I'm about to say, here goes. I just had a pair of speakers made for me by Bill W. at Audio Ventures in Milwaukee, WI. The cabinets are heavily braced, 7 cu. ft. int. vol., with zebrawood veneer. Each contains all top-of the-line Audiom Focal drivers: (2) 13" Neoglass woofers, (1) 7" neoglass mid, and (1) 1" inverted titanium dome tweet. The crossovers are huge, containing approx. $800 just in parts; therfore, no loss in the xo's. The motor structure on the Focal woofers is awe-inspiring, using a ring of approx. 2" rare earth magnet "pucks". The woofers have tremendous visceral impact, yet are VERY controlled. The mid is the most open dynamic mid have heard (but haven't heard the Eidolens). The tweeter is like "butta". Am driving them with all Spectral/MIT, approx. 380W/side. This system plays 110dB cleanly. The speaks ran me 10K, but they will realistically compare to those costing 2-5X that. Look at what drivers Wilson, JMLabs, Avalon, Kharma, etc. use: alot are custom-made Focals for each application. If you want, let me know where you are located. I can give you Bill W's number, or even have you come over for a listen.
Billspecfoc, I have built many kits based on Focal drivers and some with Raven tweeters. The quality of such designs with 1.5" thick cabinet walls and quality x-overs is beyond or equal to many of the most expensive names in audio speakers. I have built 2 ways, 3 ways, arrays, etc. I am surprised that your pair cost you 10K. The most I have ever spend was $4500 and that included two Raven R3's! A good place to look for kits is www.zalytron.com