I guess I'm thinking; who cares? There are plenty of scams in this world, steer clear if possible. What's the huge revelation? In audio cables there are scams? In audio cables over $50 there are scams. All audio cables are scams? Czarvey is qualified to differentiate which are scams and which are not? WTF?
Are there many audio products that are overpriced? What else is new? Let's move on........... |
"I guess I'm thinking; who cares? There are plenty of scams in this world, steer clear if possible. What's the huge revelation?"
Apparently, the line between a scam and not is often not as clear in high end audio, since someone can always claim to hear something that cannot be substantiated otherwise.
So no revelations perhaps but lots of fuel for the fire of discussion. |
Expensive audio and cables doens't garantee anything!!
In audio there is a lof of average and even poor quality in every price range.
At the end there is not a lot of exeptional good stuff in every single price range regarding amps, sources, cables and speakers. |
Denon1, you bring up a good point. There are many smaller cable manufacturers who are always complaining that they are not taken seriously because they do not price their cables high enough. Some "have had" to come out with new, higher priced models just so they can compete in the marketplace. It seems that folks really WANT to spend more money, or at least own some cables with bogus retail prices that makes it appear as if they spent a lot on cables. The old "I have $10K cables" club, even though it only cost you $2K to get in.
There are manufacturers that refuse to get dragged into these games, and I have the utmost respect for those manufacturers.
As one of them says: "I realize that if we want to be taken seriously we need to retail our products at obscene levels, then we can offer $12,000 cables for only $2,500, but we refuse to play this game. Audio is dying because of these games and manufacturers need to offer real world pricing - and customers need to support these companies - if we are going to see two channel audio twenty years from now. Each set takes 14 man hours (person hours?) to complete. We swear your friends will think these were $2,000 and will not think you lost your job and are downsizing, especially after they hear them. Retail $ 16,968,324,578,999 or the national debt whichever is greater."
LOL! I love it!! |
Most women feel the same way about jewelry. |
Coz whoever naively believed and spent $xx,xxx.xx amount of money for pair of audio cables will less-likely have a guts to accept his foolishness and naiveness.
It's natural, but sometimes homo-sapiens is able to outperform its own natural habits with proper mindset and strength of such obviously if there's some usage availability.
As to fake vs. real, for Harmonic and Siltech in particular, there are 'smart' workers in China who steal or manufacture an 'extra' stock to sell privately online. You can't control their laws overthere in China and they to us can do whatever they want. Trust me that particular fake will work the same just as one you'll buy for $xx,xxx.xx
Good luck and enjoy the music... |
Audioquest is copied a lot. There are at least 2 Chinese factories who copy these products.
For the Silver cables like Sky, Wild Blue Yonder and K2 they use copper of steel instead of silver.
It has nothing to do with the same material Audioquest uses. |
@ TbG, See, I told you others that do not have the caliber of cables and equipment of the best available will bash you, regardless of their, so called fanatical, I am right, and you are wrong mentality!, They , believe me, Have NEVER have had the exsperience with the cables you have or I have,Welcome to the club TBG, tune all others out!, LOL!, case closed!
Audiolabirynth, I'm not bashing OP! I'm bashing the whole schema and trying to explain by all logical means and I'm the one that being bashed because going against schema isn't easy! How the manufacturer of $xx,xxx.00 cable can be fair to ones manufacturing audio components or even let's say automobiles. One who decide to purchase that piece of scam may likely decide not to purchase new automobile or new refrigerator or anything else! I'm living retailer and that's how I think before making my decision what to pay and certainly who to support. Harmonic or Siltech or similar kind are either last on my list or likely off the list completely to even consider thinking about them. |
These talks about scams are created by all those brands who sell average or even poor quality.
And yessss there are may. In 16 years of time I am in this business I can say; there is a lot of shit on the market.
And there is comming even more. So it is getting more difficult to buy good stuff for consumers.
These days many shops are only interested in making the most money. The quality is less important.
I understand the talks about the madness in the world of cables very good.
There is a reason how it is created. This needs to stop. |
Jmcgrogan2
Could not agree more.
Those tactics to market the audio product are killing audio itself. Most of the newer generation will never spend even remotley close amounts of moeny on this kind of things. they are raised on IPOd sounds.
But I guess who cares about future. |
Common Schema:
Manufacturer A designed and manufactured cable and sold it for $xx,xxx.00 amount and represent it to clubs and reviewers.
Manufacturer B who's never even thought of idea to have $xx,xxx.00 cable decided to repeat the idea, but price his cable a-bit lower and represent it to reviewers.
Manufacturer C who've seen a few or several more manufacturers having presented their cables decides to introduce its new line with similar "level" of class.
Manufacturer x,y,z,123456789012345678...$%^&# places itself onto the same mindset and says why not? I can do same and even that is not end of line!
After all above stated a component manufacturers would say why not if it brings that much of the overoveroverprofit and provide the line of their own cables
Apperently all you need is just a name and voice to make it happen. It's only 1% or less for overall performance and every of the above listed manufacturers know it.
digdigdig. |
Audio is losing his credibility every year a little more.
Reasons?
- a lot average and poor quality stuff
- shops do nothing on investing in research of new audio
- focus on the products who give the highest margin instead
of the best quality.
- keep on focussing on the same why as in the past.
- not enough knowledge about the products they sell.
In the 16 years of time I am working in sound and vision
I see that the quality is getting lower ervery year.
Many good stuff is sold a lot less based on selling stuff on political choices.
Many shows only use stuff chosen on political choices. They should look further and work more togheter. To achive a higher level in sound at shows for the people who love good audio. |
These days I do tests and give shows for manufacturers. I am surprised how low the level in knowdledge is about the products they sell.
They only focus on selling as much as possible. There is not a lot of focus on the products itself. |
"These days many shops are only interested in making the most money. The quality is less important."
All one has to do is look around to see this more and more and audio is no exception.
Luckily there are still many exceptions, but its getting harder and harder for the typical consumer to cut through all the noise thrown out there on purpose by those with agendas other than providing good quality and good value in order to cloud the issues. |
I have said it many times here on Audiogon audio needs to be more transparent. It needs to change to get a better quality to consumers in general.
I know a few writers in audio. They got a lot of stuff for free. So these articles are worth nothing. It is not objective anymore.
There are still good cables on the markt ( also in the expensive price ranges) but there are a lot more average or worse. This is the thing I hate most in the 16 years of time I am in this business.
It got my attention when I visited different people with highend sets. I was really surprised about the low level in the endresult of sound many had. There are many things what goes wrong. It is caused by 2 important reasons. Many people who have audio as a hobby want to do things by themselves. They don't know often the different properties of the stuff they own. On the other hand I see a lot of mismatch in components and cables. This is also caused by the low level in knowledge of the people who work in this business. |
Bo1972, the internet has made the world a lot smaller and basically killed off most dealers. When I was just having some money to spend on audio and living in Tallahassee, Florida which was not a big city, we have three audio dealers and all had some top lines. Once in a while I was in Chicago and knew a dealer in the loop. And I had lived in the LA area for one semester. So I had some ability to hear demonstrations. I have not had a dealer within a hundred and fifty miles in probably 15 to 20 years. What few who are left struggle to survive as many distributors and manufacturers sell direct over the internet.
I don't think there is any prospect for better quality consumers and frankly I don't think there are good prospects for dealer remaining.
But there are now groups spread around the country and even abroad that give heads up for new things. There still are many who "show" their audio systems as expressions of their success. |
Internet has changed it a lot, but not in a better endresult for the consumers. People do not have there favorite shop anymore. They go to different places as well. And they buy things on the internet as well.
The level of mismatch is getting bigger. I can see it on the websites were people show there sets. Often I have to laugh and see that people don't know what they are doing.
They will constandly change there set and keep on tweaking. Often they are not satisfied at the end.
And this has a reason...... |
Bo1972, since there is no agreement on what is good, I don't understand how you make the judgment that many don't know what they are doing. |
That is very easy to explain. Since I started working in this business I started to test. So I learned the differences between many different amps, sources, cables and speakers etc. After time you can give these tools the different properties they own.
These different properties have effect on the overwhole sound. Togheter they create the image, how much depth, wide, resolution, sound realism ( you want all the colours of an instrument as in real), level of blacks and how big instruments and voices are and there level of papable image ( as I told many times instruments and voices are extreme small in dimension and easy to point out. I learned it during classical acoustic concerts. So you want a realistic sense of scale in your set).
Audio is all about making the perfect combination of tools . ( amps, sources, conditioners, cables and speakers togheter). This is what I call the art of sound.
Last year I became aware how much higher level in endresult I can create to all other distributers on the show. There were far over 50 rooms with audio sets. I was called the absolute sound of the show. Why? Because I created what I call total sound. The blueprint of the absolute sound. This creates a very convincing overwhole sound.
I want all parts which need to be there for the absolute sound in every system. This makes it more complete and convincing.
Many of the other sets were incomplete. I have done many blind test for clients. As you know I only focus on 3 dimensional sound. For every single person it is very easy to understand the big difference between 2 and 3 dimensional sound.
When you are not aware of the exact properties of every single tool you use in your set, It is a lot more difficult to understand what you are doing.
I am Always looking for properties. I Judge every single part for the properties they can give. I don't sell a brand or box. I sell my sound, what I call Total sound.
The main focus is on the quality and level a tool can give to me. It is a different approach. But is extreme effective. It is a very addictive sound were you want to listen for hours at one time. This is what people want. A sound to die for! |
Bo1972, more power to you if you can do this. The only convincing thing I ever hear at shows is demonstration of with and without a component. For example, I heard a demonstration of the Murata super tweeters. First they played nice speakers from Canada and then they removed the Muratas that were sitting on top of the speakkers. The image and holographic character of the sound vanished. Everybody said to put the Muratas back, which they didn't do. There was no music and several of us where pondering what we had heard. One guy finally said, "What do the Murata alone sound like?" The demonstrator said "You've been listening to them for five minutes." We all focused on the sound and heard no music at all as the Muratas have no output below 15k Hz. I bought a pair as did two others in the crowd.
I think that the sound at CES in the towers is the worst I've heard at any show, but the others are close behind. Maybe you should share your insights. |
I have to admit that without Audyssey Pro I never would achieved the level I had. I was not the only one with roomacoustic systems. Other with roomacoustic systems used 2 dimensional products. It is always easy to win from every single 2 dimensional presentation.
Many people who work in this business still sell most of the time 2 dimensional sound. This is caused by the lack of knowdledge and skills.
On the dealer day many people who owned an audio shop came to me to ask how it is possible to achieve this. They were impressed by the authority and high level of a 3 dimensional physical image. I thought; what the f.. are they doing in all the years they are in this business. You have to keep on improving your knowledge and skills all the time. Time and technique goes on. So You need to improve! |
Speaking of the Muratas, we demonstrated the Golden Sound Ultra Tweeters at CES back in '05. The Ultras also sit on top of the speakers, which at the time were the new behemoths from Golden Sound. The Ultra Tweeters were connected by thin conventional speaker cable to the speaker terminals. With the Ultra Tweeters in, the sound was spacious, full and intriguing. With the Ultra Tweeters out, the soundstage collapsed, the sound was uninvolving, etc. Now the big reveal. The Ultra Tweeters are not super tweeters at all, they operate at a frequency above 1MHz. They produce no energy below 1MHz. I had two pairs in my system for at least a few years. |
No doubt modern tools for addressing room acoustics can be invaluable, if used correctly.
I suspect many high end vendors at shows would rather take a right hook shot from Jon Jones than introduce any external signal processing into their sterling systems that often sound less than spectacular due to room acoustics.
I applaud Bo for taking the bull by the horns and applying practical and effective solutions, rather than spinning wheels based on the often limited-vison mantra that is sinking high end audio, ie throw money at the problem as long as it comes from the customer.
OR maybe a teleportation tweak or two might still help. :^) |
My wire is 13K hate the cheap stuff!! |
To increase transparency of audio companies or specifically companies that make various cables would it be possible to get an entity like Consumer Reports to evaluate the cables? I'd love to see what they find under the techflex or coverings of some cables. It is my belief that for some cable makers all they take is conventional wire put some fancy coverings on them and quality connectors on the ends.
I found this something like this out when I bought some used cables a couple of years ago. The techflex and heat shrink got damaged on a speaker cable and when I was trying to re-terminate them I found they were just plain speaker wire with vampire wire spades and banana plugs on each end. I believe the company is out of business now though but I wonder how many other companies do this practice. |
Even relatively inexpensive cables can be cryo'd and burned in on one of those newfangled cable cookers like the AudioDharma one. It makes for a more level playing field, as it were. |
Bo1972, can you list the system includng all cables and tweeks) that took the absolute sound of the show and what show you are reffering to? Thanks you |
I also played 5.1 on the show. I was the only person who played Multi channel. I am a big music lover. I own more than 100 music blu rays. I also used 2 blu rays with the space shuttle. They are so impressive in sound and image. 24 bit 96 kHz sound on blu ray is also great.
I own far over 1000 cd's. These days I use the Olive 06HD. I do not use a cd player anymore. I owend the Meridian 800 for 11 years. I got in 2005 a brand new Meridian 800 DAX V4 from Meridian. I knewe a few people very well, they arranged it for me. At shows you need to use music people really like instead of bling plong music.
At the show many people asked me about titles of the music I use. Music is my biggest hobby in life. At shows music is very important to give a convincing demo.
I played with the Monitor Audio Platinum series. Pl-200 for front. The Pl-200 is superior in timing, natural sound, stage depth and wide and physical image compared to the Pl-300. This has to do with the crossovers. I owned the Pl-300 for a couple of years. The Pl-200 is in combination with the PLW-15 superior to the Pl-300 with the PLW-15. I used the Pl-100 as surround speakers. The PLW-15 has one of the fastest response and timing of subwoofers. Many people said why you do not use the PLW-15? I laughed and said: Do you think the PL-200 goes this deep? I played Kratwerk. But he said: but I do not hear a subwoofer. So I said to him; this is stealth integration. He said what.....For many people a 3 dimensional physical sound is new.
The amps I used: Pass Labs X250.5/ Primare A30.5 mk2 ( I use 2 channels for the centre speaker ( Monitor Audio PLC-150) and 2 for the surround speakers.
I used 4 Purist Audio Limited Edition powercables with Oyaide F1/P1.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1393248599&openmine&zzBo1972&4&5#Bo1972
Audioquest Redwood 2013 improved version Loudspeakercable.
Pl-200 I use Bi-wire and for the PlC-150 I use Bi-amp version.
Inerconnects: Apacella pure silver XLR, Audioquest SKY rca.
Audioquest sub-3. A few Audioquest Diamond hdmi cables.
And I use a Powersource+ conditioner what is superior to conditioners of PS Audio and Shunyata.A very musical reaslistic overwhole sound, increase of drive and dynamics. You even can connect a Purist Audio Limited to it. It has a very big possitive influence on the sharpness and physical apperance of instruments and voices.
http://www.kempelektroniks.nl/FilesContent/menu/menu000201/pdf_ps_power_source_en_plus__eng__logo_scherpe_foto.pdf
The Monitor Audio Platinum can play at extreme volumes. For example the spl of the PL-200 is 118 db. With the subwoofer tha same story. Thgey can give a very wide and deep stage. I play also 2 metres beside the speakers and 4-5 metres behind the speakers. The ribbon tweeter of the Platinum series can even play in front of you. This makes the stage huge. But now comes the clu. I have created an extreme small and physical individual focus of instruments and voices in the wide and deep stage. In this part most people fail. The Purist Audio and top cables from Audioquest can give a stunning level of blacks togheter. Pass Audio is able to create a wide and deep stage. But the weakest point is the individual focus within the wide and deep stage. That is why I needed cables who can give me a small and realistic proportion of instruments and voices.
I owned the XP-20 for 2 years. It was a nice pre amp, but I missed a few things. With the Onkyo PR-SC5509 with my way of Aydyssey Pro I can smash the XP-20 in every aspect. With my way of Pro I can create more dynamic and more speed. The biggest difference between the XP-20 and 5509 with my measurement is a much sharper and physical focus of instruments and voices. Like 2nd and 3th voices become a lot more apparent and clear. And you do not have acoustic problems anymore. I even can let people hear the timbre of a voice. The same thing about the articulation of a voice. I can let people hear all the word endings like sss, ttt th, breathing of singers and moving lips during singing. With the XP-20 you can't achive this accuracy.
The extra authority in sound gets ride of the acoustic problems. I can play extrem loud asnd the low freq. ( 16Hz) playe without any acoustic problem. All other demos had a lot of acoustic problems. With Audyseey Pro I can create a united sound with all the speakers and subwoofer togheter what I never heard. It is the perfect balnce between all the loudspeakers. When I listen to surround without Audyssey Pro I get irritated very quick. I hear all the different limitations. I hate every single kind of limitation in sound. As a perfectionist there is no room for error. It is a no go!
I played about 70% stereo and 30% multi channel.
I use very expensive cables as you can see. They are essential parts to get this high level of sound.
On monday I went with my own music to listen to the other sets of the show for some hours. I was surprised about all the different flaws. But also that often the overwhole sound is incomplete.
There was one set I liked: This was with Zanden equipment and the Magico S1 with Kubala cables. But when I played a few numbers which i also used a lot on my set I noticed that I had superior articulation of voices. I had a big smile and thought mmmmmm I miss information. The physical apperance of instruments and voices of my set were a lot sharper and clear compared to the Zanden set with the Magico S1. The response in the low freq. the Pl-200 is a lot faster compared to the S1. Other Magico speakers have also a much better response.
Now more than one year later I am a lot further than I was at that time. Because I still test and keep on improving. As a perfectionist you never stop. It goes on and on. I love to test amnd compare. This makes you understand audio so much better. Without it I never could achieve the level in sound I can create now. It is all about using the right properties togheter. |
In the US there are a lot of different brands. In Europe we don't have all these brands. This means many small companies try to make a good product. I have tested cables from small companies in my country. Often they were ok, but never exeptional.
I Always recommend to try different cables in every set. |
Some of these products are performing at such a high level it is interesting to see what makes them tick. I personally don't understand why people get upset over it, sooner or later that technology will trickle down to a much more affordable product for everyone. A well done review is a learning experience for me. Best of Luck |
I hear a lot of nonosense the other way as well.
There is something to be said about confronting nonsense rather than just accepting it. I did just that and it's been years that I've been restricted over at Audio Circle. It was never lifted and I didn't even start it, nor was I nasty. I just shot down some blatant right wing talking points and boy, what a dust up. r>g that's why All the best, Nonoise |
That is why I want audio to become more open and honest.
I focus on it and I will go on. The main reason is that in 16 years of time I saw too many people with average or even poor sound. Caused by the reasons I already told.
It is time to change it make it more clear for all music lovers. They have the rights to get a better quality in the endresult of there system. |
There is way too much nonsense that goes unchallenged on this site. Nonsense is destructive, even in the hallowed grounds of high end audio. Many who might really care about good sound are able to spot nonsense when they see it. It destroys credibility in general, which is harmful.
I am against censorship and would not want anything censored, no matter how nonsensical, but I do wish more people would challenge other more when the nonsense detector goes off. In an intelligent and civilized manner of course. The problem I suppose is that things can turn south fast and hard when strong conflicting views occur. Sense and nonsense do not mix well. Easier to just avoid it and let the nonsense continue I suppose.
Am I speaking nonsense here? |
MM - I have a sneaking suspicion you just might have answered your own question. :-)) |
I think it is the truth you are saying, These days I also talk a lot about these things with distributers. I hear there difficulties.
Individuality creates problems and limitations. Personal agendas creates limitations for an honest advise to consumers.The same thing when shops focus on those products which give the most money. I call it colouration.
In my country the better products do not get the attention as they got in the past. Unknown and often new products are more important. Because shops buy them directly from the factory. Often these products are by far not the best in there price range.
This is bad advertising for audio in general. At the end customers get less quality for there money. And they also do not get a honest advise.
I do it the opposite way. Those people who do it as I told earlier don't like me.
And that is why it feels like a battle. That is alright with me. What I said many times; the best and most convincing sound will win. To be honest they even make it more easy for me. Because it is easier to compete.
That does not mean that I want it to stay like this. It would be better for all when the quality people get becomes better. Audio needs more positive advertising. |
Fact is many people who might not recognize good sound when they hear it do recognize the price tag and might be after a status symbol as much as anything.
I have no problem with that. It muddies the waters but educated consumers will find their way regardless. Its the rest that are at risk from the predators, and there will always be a predator around looking for prey. It's the way of nature as well as of man unfortunately. No getting around that!
There is no substitute for a little good knowledge....it goes a long way....etc. etc. |
let's get back to the original question..' reviews of $10k plus i/cs,speaker wires,and pcs...."of course reviewers SHOULD review them...how would those of us who, would otherwise not know about them, read about them..?..if you don't like to read about expensive cables...DON'T READ THE ARTICLE...it's very simple...Car and Driver and Road and Track don't just review Kias....!!most people love to read the articles about the Porsches...and the rest of the super cars... |
It's only your typical male fantasy, like Ferraris, Lambos, sex with Hawaiian Tropic models, let audiophiles have their fantasies, too. |
Mapman, I'm not interested in your "nonsense detector" as it is invalid. |
"Mapman, I'm not interested in your "nonsense detector" as it is invalid."
OK. |
Exactly, Audiogonn is a place were every single person can have his own opinion. We all have different idea's.
Th focus need to be discussion's about the threads.
Let's talk about those who have expensive cables and what make them special or even not. Because the thoughts of people here on Audiogon is more realistic.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1365764680&openmine&zzBo1972&4&5#Bo1972
It is my view of this cable. |
Bo1972, I had the Nordost Valhalla about five years ago and thought it was pretty good. I even heard it agains the Odin and thought the Valhalla was better.
I don't recall what these speaker wires cost, but they are cheap to make.
Neither was in the league of the HFC Ultimate Reference either in sound or cost to make IMHO. |
TB,
Are you saying those ICs are inherently better in all cases, or that they sounded the best to you when you heard them?
Are there less expensive ICs that you have heard that might work as well in some cases?
My opinion is ICs are mostly about synergy case by case and the best sound is not necessarily with an expensive product, though these might work quite well certainly and some might see the value. |
Mapman, I have heard the HFC top ics and speaker wires on five systems now and never quite heard what I have on my two systems but nevertheless always heard a great improvement.
In answer to your question about less expensive ics that work as well, all I really know is that they are clearly better than my Exemplar Portal LLC balanced ics, which in turn were better than everything else I have ever heard.
I hate to think of all the trial and error involved in really answering your question about synergy. I do think there is some truth to it, but not enough to wipe out the total effect. I had the Exemplars for a long time on three different speakers, four different amps, seven preamps, two phono cables, and in two different rooms, I never heard any others that ever equaled or surpassed the Exemplars. The Skogrand SC Air Reference speaker cables, however, got very close.
Of cours, these experiences are not the total population of trials but they are enough for me. |
FOr me, so far, the DNM Reson ICs are the ones I like to work with in general, and use exclusively in my main rig currently.
These cost me generally between $100-$200 from a Canadian dealer that used to be on Ebay. They are hard to come by in the US it seems.
I like these in that they may not always sound best in any system, but tweaking to synergize with them if possible seems to pay the greatest dividends. They are not shielded however, so that must be taken into consideration when using. I am a big believer in minimizing common forms of noise and distortion as much as possible, especially when digital gear and large nearby power transformers are involved. |
I owned the Valhalla loudspeakercable for 12 years of time. When the Odin came out I had a chnage to compare it with my own music with the Valhallla.
Odin had more authoritity, drive, decay and a more 'natural'invloving sound than the Valhalla. It cost a lot more.
I still think Nordost is imcomplete when you Judge a cable for all different parts there shouls be for the absolute sound. |
I've heard Nordost High End wires once that I know of in a 6 digit tube amp dealer system with Magico Mini 2 speakers. It was very good sound in a smaller room with the Magicos, especially for classical music. but pop/rock genre left me somewhat cold for those $$$s. I expected perfection always with a system like that. |
I sold Nordost for over 9 years of time. I sold a lot of Valhalla in the past as well.
The limitations are involvement in the mid freq. Not an intimate realistic proportion of instruments and voices.
Other brands also can give a wider and deeper stage. |
Bo, your assessment of Nordost is consistent with my limited exposure to them to-date. |
I sold and used Nordost my way. Like I do many things differently.
But for a reason. As a perfectionist it need to be perfect, or it is a no go.
I hate every single limitation. So what you do is you try to solve them. You add properties it does not own to make it complete.
So I used Kimber interconnects to change some limitations.
When I used Kimber interconnects the stage became wider and deeper. But I also got a much sharper individual focus of instruments and voices. And a much more open and involving mid freq.
And as you know; hearing is believing. In blind test all people choose for then Nordost/Kimber combo instead of full Nordost combo.
During discussions about this with the Nordost people they got irritated. Because they are f... blind ( deaf) and believe in there f....bullshit synergy story.
The prevered sound is what counts. There stories are worth nothing! |
