Czarivey, yeah, I believe this. Try "realism," "black background," "sharp leading edge," " decay clearly audible," etc. |
Roxy54, there are many protests about reviews of costly components; there are many reviews of costly components; but that doesn't mean there should be such reviews.
I do suspect that most reviewers would rather review more expensive components.
With the top 1% now having a majority of our country's wealth, manufacturers might well only direct their products toward sales to the top 1%. Long ago Henry Ford realized that if his employees not afford to buy his cars, he would not sell many. Modern businesses may be making just that error. |
Roxy54, I take no offense at all. Basically I agree with what you say. Mine is mainly a curiosity about why this cost escalation. Certainly I know that parts quality is up and that so is their cost. Also, most of the innovative products seem to be one person's effort and ideas. I guess small quantities and quality parts can lead to high costs, but I do think "bells and whistles" can raise the prices.
I also think that reviewers are drawn to the exotic products and certainly by being first to do a review of it. I also wonder in the focus on expensive components, how do those who must stay with less expensive products learn of them. |
Timrhu, you have got to remember how long I've been at this hobby. When I started no one gave any thought to speaker wires, power cords, isolation from vibrations, racks etc. I still remember buying Bob Fulton's speaker wires that were a prescribed length and looked identical to welding cables, I had used. The length was determined by whether babbons at the zoo heeded a warning call. I thought they were ridiculously expensive. Also the Decca London was too expensive but good at $150@.
I do wonder if the top 1% having 61% of the wealth is at the root of all of this. |
Jmcgrogan2, I agree but suspect that the middle-class will throw the Teas out and we will see what FDR did to stop the concentration in the 1% before, namely strengthen unions. Organization is the only way to beat organization. Of course, most union members are not the middle-class, but they do put the heat on management and maybe this time we will have middle-class unions of teachers, professors, and maybe doctors. |
Jmcgrogan2, I think it is the Teas that think they will win the Senate as they thought they would do in 2012, but lost six seats. Right now they are losing all four of the seats they thought were theirs to take. |
David12, I really don't think any component or wire is easy to evaluate, but cables are worse. All of them take breakin and most this may be erratic and to again be needed when moved. Isolation is another major variation. I have found that the StillPoints Ultra SSs work best with four under a component rather than three. But, of course, three points define a plane, so one of the four is likely to not be in contact with it. The Ultra SSs have a hard hat that must be loosened to work and this allows increasing it height to place it in contact with the component. Any moving of the component may loosen or tighten it and both removes its contribution to vibration control.
This happen again to me as I was evaluating my Koda K 10. The front right SS was locked but in contact. When I raised the other three and unlocked the tight one, the line stage was transformed. |
Czarivey, I'm sure you would like to believe that, but do you have any proof? I have seen three manufacturers' assembly areas and know what goes into making them. You might be right when you see a cable with molded RCA jacks and simple three lead wires in a molded wire.
I guess for you nothing but the cheapest is the rule. |
Mapman, nobody is qualified to say. I'm hearing realism that I've not heard before and love it, and I demonstrated it to four on Saturday. None, however, can afford what I have and I'm not even certain I can. |
Czarivey, certainly if my observations don't prove you wrong, your statement without any proof is totally lacking in credibility.
Mapman, I have long understood what your believes were. I don't buy them, however, and see no reason why I should given my personal experiences. |
Mapman, I certainly am not saying as you and Czarivey are that they are unecessary. That is just your opinion.
Also while no self-respecting scientists would ever say that anyone is qualified to state that something is true without substantiation for this, I do have respect for some reviewers but only because I know how careful they are to optomize the piece being reviewed.
While there was a day when I would very seriously pursue listening to something that HP or JGH recommended, that day is gone. I have to hear it myself or have it recommended by a handful of people I know around the country and now abroad.
Incidently, I think written postings on Audiogon or AudioAsylum are virtually worthless. But some where everyone posting shares a preference can be useful. Unfortunately, those who don't share that preference often feel compelled to jump in a muck up the useful thread. |
Chayro, I think you are right, but an even more serious issue is why others would claim that they "know" there is no difference. At its root science is based on observation and seeking explanations, not based on our present understanding of the laws of physics, which are at root only partial.
After a career as a researching professor in of all things, political science, and publishing seven textbooks and research monographs, I have had many peer reviewed research publications and know that good data are the basis of making an case for a relationship, not saying stupid things like, "everyone knows," "it is common sense'" etc. |
Czarivey, when I wanted to buy an Ikeda 407 tonearm, I found cheaper versions available from Hong Kong, China. They are fakes. China has a major problem even internally with fakes, such as high pressure pipes that fail, etc.
I still don't understand why you and Mapman bother to tell us your view, which many of us think is nonsense. Just enjoy your music. |
Bo1972, the internet has made the world a lot smaller and basically killed off most dealers. When I was just having some money to spend on audio and living in Tallahassee, Florida which was not a big city, we have three audio dealers and all had some top lines. Once in a while I was in Chicago and knew a dealer in the loop. And I had lived in the LA area for one semester. So I had some ability to hear demonstrations. I have not had a dealer within a hundred and fifty miles in probably 15 to 20 years. What few who are left struggle to survive as many distributors and manufacturers sell direct over the internet.
I don't think there is any prospect for better quality consumers and frankly I don't think there are good prospects for dealer remaining.
But there are now groups spread around the country and even abroad that give heads up for new things. There still are many who "show" their audio systems as expressions of their success. |
Bo1972, since there is no agreement on what is good, I don't understand how you make the judgment that many don't know what they are doing. |
Bo1972, more power to you if you can do this. The only convincing thing I ever hear at shows is demonstration of with and without a component. For example, I heard a demonstration of the Murata super tweeters. First they played nice speakers from Canada and then they removed the Muratas that were sitting on top of the speakkers. The image and holographic character of the sound vanished. Everybody said to put the Muratas back, which they didn't do. There was no music and several of us where pondering what we had heard. One guy finally said, "What do the Murata alone sound like?" The demonstrator said "You've been listening to them for five minutes." We all focused on the sound and heard no music at all as the Muratas have no output below 15k Hz. I bought a pair as did two others in the crowd.
I think that the sound at CES in the towers is the worst I've heard at any show, but the others are close behind. Maybe you should share your insights. |
Czarivey, You have not been appointed to the scam police; kindly stop acting like you have been. Your logic is faulted by you guess that wire is wire, connectors are connectors, etc. Plus you include no possibility that one would sound better. Again I ask, what is your purpose in posting as you can be sure no one counts you as someone whose opinions matter. |
Mapman, I'm not interested in your "nonsense detector" as it is invalid. |
Bo1972, I had the Nordost Valhalla about five years ago and thought it was pretty good. I even heard it agains the Odin and thought the Valhalla was better.
I don't recall what these speaker wires cost, but they are cheap to make.
Neither was in the league of the HFC Ultimate Reference either in sound or cost to make IMHO. |
Mapman, I have heard the HFC top ics and speaker wires on five systems now and never quite heard what I have on my two systems but nevertheless always heard a great improvement.
In answer to your question about less expensive ics that work as well, all I really know is that they are clearly better than my Exemplar Portal LLC balanced ics, which in turn were better than everything else I have ever heard.
I hate to think of all the trial and error involved in really answering your question about synergy. I do think there is some truth to it, but not enough to wipe out the total effect. I had the Exemplars for a long time on three different speakers, four different amps, seven preamps, two phono cables, and in two different rooms, I never heard any others that ever equaled or surpassed the Exemplars. The Skogrand SC Air Reference speaker cables, however, got very close.
Of cours, these experiences are not the total population of trials but they are enough for me. |
Audiolabyrinth, I merely count him as a poor used car salesman.
You also see why I might ask that question. Some will be interested and some have nothing to do but suggest that they cannot hear well. |
Bo1972, "The prevered (preferred?) sound is what counts. There (their?) stories are worth nothing!" |
This thread has become the Tower of babel. |
Mcondon, Jazzonthehudson, Czarivey, and, of course, Mapman, why do you bother posting here? Are you guys self-appointed snakeoil police? If you guys think those of us buying the HFCs enjoy their expense or that we seek the awe of those coming to our rooms and seeing these cables, you are crazy, but we do recognize the performance improvement of these cables and have found that those coming to our homes and hearing them agree.
Jazzonthehudson, until there finally is a dynamic and efficient point sourse speaker that is a reverse microphone, speakers will always be a compromise. |
Mapman, I thought everyone knew I was now a reviewer. On Audioasylum you have to register as a reviewer, but not on Audiogon. I here of late have put a good deal of money into my system because I really could not do without what I was buying. Of course if I'm buying a product I "support" it.
I am not threatened by your posts. I am irritated with their making so many interesting threads into worthless by this nosense of nothing being worth it. You know that most who have been posting have found something worthwhile and that you cannot undo that. You and others, view yourselves as "scam police." No one appointed you to this.
I asked the question out of sincere concern that no one was interested in reviews of expensive cables. Had I not been so impressed with the power cords, I certainly would not have scraped to buy only a portion of what I need. |
Mitch2, let me take another counter example to your car example. How much information do you have for buying one computer versus another? Yes you get amount of memory, processor speed, size, weight, etc. Do you seek interior pictures or timing of various tasks before buying?
I like 6Moons reviews also, but many audio manufactures will not allow such reviews. I much prefer to discuss the at least plausible explanation of how product X differs. But there are many things that manufacturers consider proprietary information. Would that you deny such manufacturers no reviews or just tell readers to hear this for yourself? In reality advising readers to seek to hear this piece is the only warrented advice, even though few of us can get such an audition. Wouldn't it be great were audio magazines be listening sessions where everyone heard the same thing rather than verbal reviews? |
Czarivey, I know of at least four very wealthy guys, all in the Northeast who have multiple very expensive turntables, amps, turntables and, yes, sets of cables. I know of one guy with eleven Stage III Krakens, I know of a guy with 90 plus StillPoints Ultra 5s.
Your wishful thinking doesn't make it so. |
Jazzonthehudson, You know the "five times parts and labor rule?" You are right that there are instances where manufacturers are making a fortune. I well remember when Bill Low brought out Big Red speaker wire. After that wire he made lots of money. |
Bo1972, I must say that your quest is impressive, but I doubt if anyone has information about the right combinations to achieve the best sound. There are just too many combinations. No one has heard all the different cables that are available, nor all the different speakers, amps, etc. No one has heard all the permutations of these choices, much less know all the taste differences among audiophiles, much less how bad or good their listening rooms are.
Yours is a good sales pitch but hardly convincing. It is much better to have friends who have sought good sound and follow some of their suggestions to see if they help you. |
Czarivey, you said, "So what's so different between Mogami, Demarzzio priced in average $50/m vs. let's say Harmonic Tech priced $5,000?
5xparts+labor does seem to be far far away from $5,000. There's certainly +scam!" and now you say the second cheapest sounded better. Did you listen to the Harmonic Tech?
On one hand you say costly cables are a scam but sound can rule out the cheapest??? How much money can sound justify costing more? |
Czarivey, hmm, let us try that: parts $800 and labor $1200. $2000 x 5 + $10,000. The AudioQuests are too cheap. |
Czarivey, you need an education into reality, but if you are happy just stay that way. Please, however, don't post on threads that you have no knowledge to bring to bare. |
