Yes mixed with good seasoning of selfrighteousness. Can't help myself, just didn't like this guy's attitude overly much. |
Well I think we owe a lot to Holt, who started it all, to HP, who gave us a language to describe our listening experience with and to Moncrieff for understanding cartridge loading and the influence of caps on sound. For me Salvatore is on a mighty ego-trip, scavenging on our rightful mistrust of reviews in general. I found some of his points a bit far fetched. I've stopped reading Stereophile a long time ago and still read TAS for fun, although they've bcome stale too, in my HO. I miss the days, when TAS was still young and without advertising.
Just my belated 2cents. |
Oh come on Trelja, not much point in digging for Djjd's motivation. You give him too much attention. I first thought about responding, that he was comparing pears with apples a tad unfairly and that his irony was heavyhanded..but then I stood back from the idea thinking it not worth the trouble. This guy probably just loves to hear himself talk. YAWN. |
A question: Honestly, aren't we all a bit infantile, speaking of trusting the magazines and complaining of trust betrayed. For heaven's sake, these guys must make a living like us and how can we be sure ourselves, that we - with conflicting interests - are always able to choose the right path? Audio publications are not there to be trusted. They exist to make interesting and sometimes enlightening reading....and to make money. Besides, in the publications I like to read, I am continuously told something in the way of " this is what I hear in my setup, BUT TRUST YOUR OWN EARS." So lets grow up and forget about Salvatore, who peddles to the childlike, who still like to believe in Father X-mas, hoping to be the great Zampano himself.
Wow, this will get me minus points, but I had to get this off my chest. |
Tubegroover, I am very grateful for the time and energy you took, to write this thoughtful and very well considered post....and I could not agree more. I've read TAS from its very beginning and have experienced that "gradual shifting of allegiances in the Name of Capitalism over Ideals", as you so aptly put it, with sadness and discomfort. But "the times they are a-changing" and true idealsm, especially as regards values like truth, meaning, beauty are becoming more and more of a private thing to hold up, cherish and work upon. Hence I tend to feel, that we must be weary of any self annointed gurus pointing the way to whatever nirvana, including that of audio, but must learn to think and judge for ourselves, with the help of other idealists of course¨and this platform here seems just right for this purpose. These were the ruminations behind my somewhat emotional post above in the sense of: Come on guys, things are what they are, no use crying over spilt milk, lets grow up, make ourselves knowledgeable, share with each other. There are better things to do than to lament about things, we are unable to change. If we cannot better the mags, at least we can better ourselves. If they've betrayed their original ideals, we don't have to at all, because as hobbyists we are free, without having to face conflicting interests , which probably sooner or later would grind down our ideals as well. We have, contrary to the mags, what in German is so aptly called "Narrenfreiheit"...the freedom of the fools and the innocent, because its our hobby,perhaps even our passion, but not our way to make a living. If it were, I wonder how long it would take us, until also we, the righteous, had at least to question our ideals by just plain necessity.
No Tubegroover, I realise full well, how many people feel justly betrayed by the mainstream rags. But I still maintain, that exactly those people, instead of endlessly complaining about that deplorable fact, should try to become independent and learn for themselves...and haven't we found a good platform here to do just that? In my humble opinion, the loss of idealism, the "whoredom" as has has been said above, of those rags, is a chance for us to grow and to learn. Regards, |
Touché Ka, I humbly must bow to your insight. It was probably the halfconscious reminiscence of my old anger, when I saw the figures I admired, first sway and then fail, which made me now so impatient....and unjust. Apologies to anyone offended. |
Slawney, would you really say that Salvatore's critique of "these institutions" you mention is a "systematic" one, as you call it ? (Unless of course by systematic you mean a critique of the alleged "systems" behind those institutions and not the critique itself being systematic in its methodology and purpose) Besides that, I find your thoughts interesting and indeed an inquiry along the lines you draw out for us, could show us publishing policy, but hardly, I venture to say, something about the spirit and the integrity or lack thereof, of the individual journalist, who sometimes may be lead by a large rope and sometimes not. |
Slawney, thankyou for your thoughtful response to my query. To my mind at least it should be difficult to refute the points you make in your brilliant analysis. The methodology you suggest, is, as you say, difficult to apply in practical terms, but it points a way to help us hone our critical minds, helps us to question rationally and "systematically". I very much agree with the conclusions you draw in both your posts and wish to thank you for the time and effort you took to share your thoughts with us! Regards, |
Greg, remember the old Latin phrase "degustibus non est disputandum " ? One man's heaven (speaker, cable, what have you) is another man's hell. So even the most rational of statements in our field here, will most probably be met with an emotional response. The so called objectivists, who in fact are the most subjective amongst us here, try to cheat themselves (and us for that matter) out of this dichotomy, by maintaining, that most of what we hear is but a figment of our imagination anyway. To my mind, if we refuse to fall into that trap, we must learn to live with the dichotomy you mention, which in fact will become less and less difficult to bear, if we learn to accept, that most of us here will voice and shape their systems according to what their ears will tell them is "best", or at least approaching it and I suppose that there are as many "bests" out there as there are audiophiles around, who at this point in time happen to be happy with their systems. I've noticed, that the most seasoned amongst us will tell us about their systems and describe its musicality but will only get emotional if derided or hard pressed. They still tend to experiment and occasionally upgrade, but I would venture the guess, that they stick to their stuff longer than a relative newcomer with means. Also I've never heard them say that this or that gear is "best". If you haven't had the time to mature in the fairyland of audiophilia however, you tend to look for what is "best" and do so with much emotion involved. Its the mags, which tend to feed and accelerate this, because they have to find a new list of "bests" everytime they bring out a new issue. Nobody would read them, if they would not do so. They would bore us all stiff.
At the same time, they tell us, that when all is said and done, even the "best of best" will never approach the "absolute sound of real music in real space and time".
In peddling "best" in every issue, hinting that this month's "best" is most probably just a step closer to the real thing, than last month's, but at the same time maintaining, that the real best can only be real live music, they feed us what is called a double bind in psychology, which at best,( pun intended) will emotionalize us , at worst, drive us nuts and make us bust budgets in the process. It is also the mother of addiction. It is in this double bind, where to my mind the actual poison lies hidden, not in our suspicion, that the mags could possibly be corrupt. How to avoid it? Well, perhaps we should not entirely, because it nourishes the fire, underlying our quest for beauty. But too big a dose of it will make us restless, disatisfied, never content how "it sounds", because there might be something "better" just around the corner. My personal solution to this problem has evolved but slowly through the years: I've learnt neither to trust nor to mistrust the statements reviewers make, because I don't see any objectivity in them anyway, neither will I in mine or in anybody else's in fact. I've learnt, that there is neither a "best" in systems, nor an absolute truth in describing them. I've learnt, that I have my own tastes as far as musical software as well as hardware is concerned. In the course of time I've built a system just following my own ears and trying to voice and shape it in the way I wanted it to sound. To me its "best" emotionally, rationally I know that there are better around. I will read and listen to keep informed, I will experiment, as I do with the Bybee stuff right now, but there is a hardware foundation to my rig, which is neither the latest, nor the most expensive, which I know I will never change, because it comes closest to what in my mind and soul I find is musical. Newcomers to our field, I find, should be told of those basic rules which exist to make a system sound better.
They should be sent to as many live musical events as possible, to have a tertium comparationis between the sound of their system and the ideas of sound they have in their minds about how a system should make music. They should read the mags, but with the attitude of a sportscar enthusiast, who knows that reading about how a Porsche handles, will reflect the journalists experience, but not the feeling he himself will have, when he has his behind in the driver's seat, but above all he should learn to understand, that there is no "best", nor ever will be. If that is achieved, you're out of this double bind I mentioned before and if reviewers are music lovers of independent mind and soul or capitalism's slaves becomes a point of little or no consequence and the dichotomy wich Greg has pointed out so well, is just the "both sides of the same coin". Speaking of coins: just my two cents, sorry I was so long. Cheers to all, |
Well Rbischoff, trust is not the word I would use, however I liked Cordesman, Martin Colloms,John Nork and the HP of yore, alas,not the one employed by Dell Computers.
And hi Kubla, nice to find you here, don't cease to be amazed, (-;, it keeps one young. Cheers, |
Greg, thanks for having read my long diatribe. You are right about the importance of disputes. They help to clarify where and how we stand. Why don't you start a thread about "shaping preferences" ? I myself, like you need dynamics, I need "those sudden bursts of intensity", like you have in live music, I go crazy if the highs are missing or grainy and I need a solid bass foundation to the music. Subtle timing cues should be rendered as lifelike as possible. Listening to music as an interactive experience...that was an eye-opener for me, because, not unlike you I "correspond" with the musicians as a natural matter of course, but was never really conscious of my doing so...never thought about it, but it was there..so be thanked! Cheers |
