I understand, I also want the music, not what equipment I use. Of course some don't like live music, so be careful.
First off, I wanted to give my credentials. I have an electronics engineering degree, about 45 years in tubes, and decades, off and on, with audio design. Trust me Slate, you are being suckered with marketing hype. And definitions seem to be changing, as I mentioned in my earlier post.
I don't know where you heard or were taught that stuff but it is virtually all wrong, wrong, wrong.
>>"As for the passive line stage. Marco (jax2) hit it on the head as I understand it. The Creek 5350SE also sports a passive line stage and I can say that both of these integrateds have a level of detail to their sound that I can only attribute to the passive design."<
That is because the preamp gainstage is matched with the amp, and you have to purchase both together. But I heard enough of them at "The Show" and CES that I wasn't necessarily impressed with them. They sounded just as varied as the separates. And there were hundreds of manufacturers there.
AS mentoned in my earlier post, the preamp gain stage was merely moved into the amp. One can always tell by the input sensitivity of the amp, can't get around it, no way around it.
It is clever marketing, but, in my opinion, confuses the reader like yourself. Plus the problems of feedback through multiple loops thru the power supply, which no one ever mentions (See RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook if you think I am lying. It has been known for over 50 years!) So they either don't know the problems, or they are trying to hide the problems.
The integrated designs are certainly not optimum. One can get better sound from better designs than integrateds.
I suppose if I used a 2 foot by 2 foot, I could physically include a great preamp gainstage with an amp, although the design would be quite different that what is out there now, and call it integrated. But I have't seen anyone do that yet.
Your next post reveals more of the marketing hype some have fed you.
>>"One more thing - there is a difference, both from an engineering and sonic standpoint, between a passive and active line stage in an integrated amp - it's not a marketing trick."<
The engineering standpoint is easy, cheaper, less expensive etc.. The feedback problems are never addressed though.
The sonic standpoint is not established by any means. The integrateds certainly didn't reveal themselves as spectacular at the CES and THE SHOW last year.
It sounded like if you wanted a particular sound, you went with an integrated. If you were a music lover, and liked live music, then separates did the job.
Another point. The 1st active stage of an integrated amp is almost never optimally designed, so an external stage can easily be made superior to an integrateds 1st stage.
The hype that some claim the active preamp stage added to the amp is NOW part of the amp itself, and the volume control is "separated" and is now called a passive preamp.
Clever trick, trying to change definitions. Total marketing crap and hype though.
So the public is fooled into thinking the product is something simpler, when it isn't. Just re-aranged.
Clever trick.
Remember, Slate, the feedback loops increase with the number of stages, almost exponentially. So 3 stages have many more loops than two stages and 4 stages really produces alot of loops of feedback. And the feedback loops are phase shifted, so lots of sonic interactions with the music.
>>"Most pre-amp sections in integrateds add about 6db of gain to the incoming signal before routing the signal through the volume pot to further adjust gain. That's an active pre-amp section."<
So you are getting rid of two preamp gain stages down to one? Not quite true though as any typical preamp has the active stage AFTER the volume control, not before. So you still have a active preamp stage in the amp. Don't be fooled Slate.
And haveing two stages, one before and one after sounds even more complicated, not simpler.
Sounds like they are trying to fool the public into thinking they are losing a stage when they are not. So much for marketing hype and trying to get your money.
>>"The Panache and the 5350SE don't apply that additional gain before routing the signal through the volume pot - that's a passive line stage. Interestingly, the 5350SE offers an optional 6db gain card that can be added by the user to convert the passive line-stage to an active pre-amp."
Nope, Nope. Again marketing hype and definition changes. Talked about above in this post.
They already applied the preamp gainstage after the volume control just like ANY typical preamp. The 6db of gain on the card just adds even more gain, and another stage, adding complexity.
Changing definitions isn't too ethical in my book, or the publics. People don't like being lied to.
Don't be fooled Slate.
Take care.
Steve
PS. Get any old book, say 4th edition of the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, and you can read the truth.
First off, I wanted to give my credentials. I have an electronics engineering degree, about 45 years in tubes, and decades, off and on, with audio design. Trust me Slate, you are being suckered with marketing hype. And definitions seem to be changing, as I mentioned in my earlier post.
I don't know where you heard or were taught that stuff but it is virtually all wrong, wrong, wrong.
>>"As for the passive line stage. Marco (jax2) hit it on the head as I understand it. The Creek 5350SE also sports a passive line stage and I can say that both of these integrateds have a level of detail to their sound that I can only attribute to the passive design."<
That is because the preamp gainstage is matched with the amp, and you have to purchase both together. But I heard enough of them at "The Show" and CES that I wasn't necessarily impressed with them. They sounded just as varied as the separates. And there were hundreds of manufacturers there.
AS mentoned in my earlier post, the preamp gain stage was merely moved into the amp. One can always tell by the input sensitivity of the amp, can't get around it, no way around it.
It is clever marketing, but, in my opinion, confuses the reader like yourself. Plus the problems of feedback through multiple loops thru the power supply, which no one ever mentions (See RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook if you think I am lying. It has been known for over 50 years!) So they either don't know the problems, or they are trying to hide the problems.
The integrated designs are certainly not optimum. One can get better sound from better designs than integrateds.
I suppose if I used a 2 foot by 2 foot, I could physically include a great preamp gainstage with an amp, although the design would be quite different that what is out there now, and call it integrated. But I have't seen anyone do that yet.
Your next post reveals more of the marketing hype some have fed you.
>>"One more thing - there is a difference, both from an engineering and sonic standpoint, between a passive and active line stage in an integrated amp - it's not a marketing trick."<
The engineering standpoint is easy, cheaper, less expensive etc.. The feedback problems are never addressed though.
The sonic standpoint is not established by any means. The integrateds certainly didn't reveal themselves as spectacular at the CES and THE SHOW last year.
It sounded like if you wanted a particular sound, you went with an integrated. If you were a music lover, and liked live music, then separates did the job.
Another point. The 1st active stage of an integrated amp is almost never optimally designed, so an external stage can easily be made superior to an integrateds 1st stage.
The hype that some claim the active preamp stage added to the amp is NOW part of the amp itself, and the volume control is "separated" and is now called a passive preamp.
Clever trick, trying to change definitions. Total marketing crap and hype though.
So the public is fooled into thinking the product is something simpler, when it isn't. Just re-aranged.
Clever trick.
Remember, Slate, the feedback loops increase with the number of stages, almost exponentially. So 3 stages have many more loops than two stages and 4 stages really produces alot of loops of feedback. And the feedback loops are phase shifted, so lots of sonic interactions with the music.
>>"Most pre-amp sections in integrateds add about 6db of gain to the incoming signal before routing the signal through the volume pot to further adjust gain. That's an active pre-amp section."<
So you are getting rid of two preamp gain stages down to one? Not quite true though as any typical preamp has the active stage AFTER the volume control, not before. So you still have a active preamp stage in the amp. Don't be fooled Slate.
And haveing two stages, one before and one after sounds even more complicated, not simpler.
Sounds like they are trying to fool the public into thinking they are losing a stage when they are not. So much for marketing hype and trying to get your money.
>>"The Panache and the 5350SE don't apply that additional gain before routing the signal through the volume pot - that's a passive line stage. Interestingly, the 5350SE offers an optional 6db gain card that can be added by the user to convert the passive line-stage to an active pre-amp."
Nope, Nope. Again marketing hype and definition changes. Talked about above in this post.
They already applied the preamp gainstage after the volume control just like ANY typical preamp. The 6db of gain on the card just adds even more gain, and another stage, adding complexity.
Changing definitions isn't too ethical in my book, or the publics. People don't like being lied to.
Don't be fooled Slate.
Take care.
Steve
PS. Get any old book, say 4th edition of the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, and you can read the truth.