I think both make interesting points worth commenting on. I didn't know for sure there were some who were more interested in what was purchased than how the music sounded. I always thought it was just rhetoric. But it really is true?
I think we agree that if we were to sit in front of a sax, it is involving, emotional, and likeable. In otherwards, it is neutral/accurate and involving since it is live. I like that too. I think we agree on that.
But the problems I will describe below may make you think about the whole audio industry. The whole business of audio seems to be to sell product, not necessarily make bettter music, which we all like.
The next point:
"The line output from a CD or DAC has more than enough gain already, at least that's how I understand it. A passive pre is just regulating that gain while putting a minimum amount of circuitry in the signal path. Someone correct me here if I'm wrong. If you hook up your average CD player or DAC straight into an amplifier you would be getting rather uncomfortably loud volumes with nothing in the path to regulate the signal.....
The preamp stage in the Panache is passive as far as I know. It is only a line stage amp with no provision for phono. Further clarification can be had on the Portal Audio Website, or using one of the several links there to reviews of that amp."
I can understand the confusion. It seems that definitions are changing right before my eyes and confusing the public.
Actually, what you describe above is an amp with a gain stage that is normally in an outboarded preamp, but it is now installed in the amp itself to give the gain necessary to accept a CD signal. It is normally called an integrated amp, meaning the active preamp gainstage is incorporated in the amp.
It used to be that a typical system was described as a source, a preamp (phono stage plus a line stage), and then an amp. But the gainstage/linestage from the preamp is now installed in the amp to do away with extra power supply the outboarded preamp needed.
So the external preamp power supply, ICs etc are not needed in an integrated amp. But read on.
Now, for the first time I have seen, with this post, the public being told (by Sam Tellig?) that the 1st stage of an integrated amp (actually what used to be the active stage of a preamp) is actually part of the amp. What a change.
And not only that, the integrated amp is now called an amplifier, not integrated amp? And now the volume/selector are incorporated and is called a pasive preamp?
That is a real change in definitions.
So, amps are now incorporating increased gain (in order to accept the signal from a CD player) in order to eliminate the conventional active preamp, being called integrated amps. And now the definition of integrated amps is changing to be called a regular amp. The push will continue.
Unfortunately, integrated amps and "amps with increased gain" with passive volume controls have major sonic problems, which are never discussed.
For instance, did you know that these amps have feedback from the output to the input, even though some, if not many state there is no feedback?
This feedback, actually multiple feedback loops, is actually thru the power supply, and is frequency dependent, and is frequently only 20db down or so from the fundamental music, like tem times higher than typical tube distortion figures.
This problem has been known for over 50 years and occurs in nearly all amp designs! If you can get a copy of the 4th edition of the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, look it up.
The ramifications by changing the definition only seems to help those who sell this type of equipment. Unfortunately, the minuses of this topology aren't discussed.
Take care.
Steve
I think we agree that if we were to sit in front of a sax, it is involving, emotional, and likeable. In otherwards, it is neutral/accurate and involving since it is live. I like that too. I think we agree on that.
But the problems I will describe below may make you think about the whole audio industry. The whole business of audio seems to be to sell product, not necessarily make bettter music, which we all like.
The next point:
"The line output from a CD or DAC has more than enough gain already, at least that's how I understand it. A passive pre is just regulating that gain while putting a minimum amount of circuitry in the signal path. Someone correct me here if I'm wrong. If you hook up your average CD player or DAC straight into an amplifier you would be getting rather uncomfortably loud volumes with nothing in the path to regulate the signal.....
The preamp stage in the Panache is passive as far as I know. It is only a line stage amp with no provision for phono. Further clarification can be had on the Portal Audio Website, or using one of the several links there to reviews of that amp."
I can understand the confusion. It seems that definitions are changing right before my eyes and confusing the public.
Actually, what you describe above is an amp with a gain stage that is normally in an outboarded preamp, but it is now installed in the amp itself to give the gain necessary to accept a CD signal. It is normally called an integrated amp, meaning the active preamp gainstage is incorporated in the amp.
It used to be that a typical system was described as a source, a preamp (phono stage plus a line stage), and then an amp. But the gainstage/linestage from the preamp is now installed in the amp to do away with extra power supply the outboarded preamp needed.
So the external preamp power supply, ICs etc are not needed in an integrated amp. But read on.
Now, for the first time I have seen, with this post, the public being told (by Sam Tellig?) that the 1st stage of an integrated amp (actually what used to be the active stage of a preamp) is actually part of the amp. What a change.
And not only that, the integrated amp is now called an amplifier, not integrated amp? And now the volume/selector are incorporated and is called a pasive preamp?
That is a real change in definitions.
So, amps are now incorporating increased gain (in order to accept the signal from a CD player) in order to eliminate the conventional active preamp, being called integrated amps. And now the definition of integrated amps is changing to be called a regular amp. The push will continue.
Unfortunately, integrated amps and "amps with increased gain" with passive volume controls have major sonic problems, which are never discussed.
For instance, did you know that these amps have feedback from the output to the input, even though some, if not many state there is no feedback?
This feedback, actually multiple feedback loops, is actually thru the power supply, and is frequency dependent, and is frequently only 20db down or so from the fundamental music, like tem times higher than typical tube distortion figures.
This problem has been known for over 50 years and occurs in nearly all amp designs! If you can get a copy of the 4th edition of the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, look it up.
The ramifications by changing the definition only seems to help those who sell this type of equipment. Unfortunately, the minuses of this topology aren't discussed.
Take care.
Steve