I've heard Magnepans set up in J. Smith's old Audition audio shop in Birmingham AL. HE may have been the guy who helped me when I visited the store that day, not sure. Best sounding Maggies probably I have ever heard still, and I bought a pair on the spot and ran them for 20 years. He no doubt knows what he is doing. I see few Maggie systems set up the way his were....too bad! Gotta have the right room though where the speakers will not be in the way.
Okay, I'll bite...So, how did he have the Maggies set up (and I don't even have Maggies - anymore). I do agree that you have to start with the right sized speakers for the room. Too big and you'll never tame the boomy bass; too small and you'll never "pressurize" the room. This has to fall into place before you can start to fine tune anything else if you're truly pursuing perfection IMO.
And here I'm looking for a procedure, a bit more detail on the above process rather than exact measurements which of course won't be the same for any two rooms. I'll probably be advised to search for threads on this, and there are many. I've tried a few as you probably have. Acoustics is an evolving science. Let's share what's worked for us, then what you finally did to tweek/personalize your method.
I'll go first: ( I don't have a choice of where to place my couch due to a pool table so feel free to give your seating placement procedure input starting right there!) Then: Start from where you currently have your speakers placed..and mark that with tape. The bass is optimized first. I used a Stereophile test CD with bass tracks one one channel at a time (disconnect other speaker carefully - no shorts/turn amp off!), while my son moved each speaker (sans spikes) in & out from the front wall until I heard what I liked the best. Start close to the wall and move out. One of the frequencies will give you the most resonance problems. Just listen and trust your ears to tighten it up. Listen again to verify other frequencies line up OK. Same with other speaker. They should be about the same distance from the wall..but, maybe not, mine were. (try averaging here? or,does it sound worse?)
Then adjust the "wideness" by spreading your speakers using a full symphonic piece so your soundstage is as wide as possible without forming a hole in the middle. Here you need to measure to be sure speakers are same distance from your ears (and same from centerline, should be). Now put spikes back on and level both speakers. Now, lasers work very well.
Next, with your favorite music, try pivoting speakers on one corner ("same" corner) to focus tweeters in front of, directly at you, and behind you to find what you prefer. Move around the room. Again, it's your system, your ears and your choice. Don't worry, in the end it will sound fine to all of your friends and you will love it.
Finally, level speakers again and by listening only to female vocalist,(with eyes shut and moving head right to left) pinpoint center image and fine adjust toe-in on both speakers to center her voice/image while lasers focus together on centerline (in front of, at, or behind your head as you've chosen) ..along with you head. Done.
-If it doesn't work for you,
you can move them back to where you first marked them. Just remember how much this cost you. Ha.
Truman, Here are the basics of Jim's method in order:
1. Locate best position and height of the listening seat. Based on measuring
bass for smoothest response.
2. Proper speaker distance out from front wall based on room nodes and
3. Proper speaker distance out from center line of room based on warmth,
fullness, center fill, soundstage, body and weight of instruments and voices.
4. Proper speaker toe-in and tilt based on focus, imaging.
5. Address first reflection points, reflection behind listening seat, other room
It's been two years, and I may have forgotten something, but that is what I
remember. "Get Better Sound" explains it more accurately and
with greater detail. Everything he did was measured with instruments and a
laser so distances, toe-in, tilt etc were EXACT to the nearest 1/16th of an
I had read the book and improved my system's sound and was quite satisfied.
That cost about $65 and about three months of adjustments. After Jim did
the voicing, the sound was much better and the cost was low compared to
other equipment purchases. I could not have achieved the tone, dynamics
and presence in my system without Jim's help.
The value of the service is a subjective calculation that each person must
make for his/her self.
Thanks for sharing your experience Peter. I bought Jim's book and the DVD and it made a slight improvement. I know there is more performance that can be squeezed out of my stereo just by speaker placement. At some point in the future, I'd also like to have him come do his RoomPlay for me.
I'm also interested in knowing what he did that you weren't able to do yourself after reading his book?
You are very welcome Erndog. Jim has a lot more experience than I do. So he uses his measuring instruments and then plays 20 or so digital songs that he knows extremely well and he basically fine tuned what I had started. He spent ten hours straight without a break. The difference is that he knows better than I did at the time what to listen for.
I got close but his small changes really improved the sense of presence and dynamics mostly. But imaging and extension increased a bit also. In the end, my listening seat was lifted about two inches, the sofa was moved back 7 inches, the speakers came into the room about 4 more inches, and the distance between the speakers changed about 2 inches closer together. But this small changes had a dramatic effect.
I read and followed the advice in the book, and he said that I came pretty close, but I did not know how to take it to the next level. That's where he came in.
I don't know about the tweak, but I can tell you about the squeak that his much-vaunted Kickstarter project was.. he has usurped - stolen is a better word - almost 100000 USD from a Kickstarter project without sending out the rewards to the guys who funded his *project*. Been more than seven years now.
Thanks for your post Peter. Very interesting read. I began trying to figure out room/speaker optimization about 5 years ago. I've worked on my room in several phases since that time, and I think I'm finally closing in on the end. I learned as I went along. What I have found in the end is pretty much dead on with the 5 step process you outlined above, except that I would work on speaker placement first and then listening position. I have a dedicated listening room, so I have complete freedom with respect to positioning both. Each person can decide for himself between hiring a consultant and getting things done in a couple of days or investing the substantial time and effort to learn all this stuff without help. What shouldn't be missed is that either approach can utterly transform a system. My encouragement to every audiophile is to either figure it out yourself or hire an expert to do it for you. Getting room/speaker interaction, main listening position, and supplemental room treatments right can in some instances dwarf equipment changes in terms of impact on sound quality.
Last winter I visited my son and we spent an evening getting his room optimized. We got speaker placement and listening position optimized and found a good, though perhaps not optimal, position for his sub. We spent one evening (about 6 hours) getting this done. I got him set up with doing his own measuring doing REW, and explained what I was doing and why I was doing it as I went along. I spent a bit of time talking about types of treatment, reflection points, etc., so that he could proceed with that phase of his project well informed.
I surprised myself in how rapidly I got his set up optimized. Once you get it figured out, it isn't that hard. As for me, I'm glad I did it myself. It is sort of the give a man a fish/teach a man to fish thing. Now I don't have to hire a consultant every time I change speakers or move.
I don't blame Audiobonk, though I notice he has only made three posts here - all the same - for his opinion. The Through The Sound Barrier Project has been a much more massive project than I ever imagined, plus I have kept adding to it to make up for it being late...
I have also fulfilled over half of the TTSB commitments to backers who went beyond the standard pledge - RoomPlay, RoomPlay Reference, & StraightTalk.
In order to save some time, and give you up-to-date info, here is a l-o-o-o-n-g copy of an update that I recently sent to another backer:
"I appreciate your note and your patience. I do still have some health issues - in fact, I am prescribed a twice-weekly Physical Therapy session which has been put on hold with the C-19 lockdown...
However, none of that is really slowing me down much.
I am sorry for the lack of communication. There’s no excuse, even though I have been working pretty much non-stop on this huge project.
Here’s the TTSB current report - it’s kinda long - but I hope it helps:
All 23 TTSB CD tracks that require it have finally been licensed. All 27 have been mastered.
I am still finishing up Book Two - it’s trickier than I expected, as I am writing the info re all of the tracks, plus others that I use, now that streaming make it possible to recommend them as well - for very little money - without licensing - but I think it will be very helpful for use with the CDs, along with the DVD as an aid, as well as the additional surprise item mentioned below....
I do have an
unforeseen hold-up due to website hosting issues.
If all goes as planned, we will have a new host/website soon. It will still be getbettersound.com, but with a new design & new host. (Yay - just completed yesterday, 5-30-20!)
It will be hosting TTSB as well as GBS. The QNs mailings (last one 14 months or so ago), which also had become quite burdensome with the mailing company we have been using, will be able to be sent directly - and much more easily, with better delivery - from the new GBS website.
I have been working hard on preparing the DVD, which I know will be vastly more useful than what I had originally planned.
I am painfully aware of how late this project is. However, this project is massively more informative than originally planned, with two books, a system log, three fully licensed CDs, a much more impacting & useful DVD, plus another big surprise item…
Book One is essentially What are Sound Barriers & Why we should be aware of their effect on our music. Book Two is How To Unlock Your Music in a more powerful way. The CDs are there to use only after reading Book Two, the DVD makes it even more useful, and the System Log enhances the solidity of the project as well as organizing future music considerations.
with this ridiculous delay, I am driven to partially make up for it by
delivering much more at this late date than was originally
And FWIW - I have learned-by-doing (through RoomPlay & RoomPlay Reference sessions) a great deal re just how musically compromised 95% of all audiophile systems are, even including Get Better Sound owners - an issue that I wasn’t nearly as aware of as I am now. Which is why the additional - yet unannounced - item will have such musical impact...
Since I have been so incompetent in estimating the size & ETA of this huge project, I know not to make any ETA guesses at this point.
Maybe the only good thing about the COVID-19 situation here is that I can not go on RoomPlay voicing sessions around North America, nor has anyone been encouraged to travel here for a RoomPlay Reference session.
Therefore, no distractions.
My wife Pam can readily attest to the long hours of each day, as I try to complete two books, a system logbook, three CDs, and the DVD, plus another highly valuable surprise item...
AFAIK, I am
still at the top of my game re sound system set-up & unlocking the music,
but producing such a massive project is obviously not in my highest skill
May I ask - did you participate in the TTSB Kickstarter project, and if so, at what pledge level did you participate?
The reason I ask is that some backers (Barrier Talk, RoomPlay Reference, & RoomPlay) did more than the TTSB package alone, and sometimes I can help them with the other part of their pledge - in fact about half of them have been done to date."